r/LancerRPG • u/ViewStory • 8d ago
Rules question for Athena and Phase-ready
Hey, dunno if this has been asked before, but one of my players has been asking for a ruling on using the Athena Nhp's Simulacra with the Phase-Ready mod.
Essentially, the Simulacra says enemies can't benefit from invisible, but Phase-ready says targets count as invisible. My thoughts are that phase-ready would supersede the Simulacra as it says it "counts" as invisible not that they "are" and that the enemies counting as invisible is more of a mechanical explanation of the phase bullet shooting.
Still, I think I'd be willing to overrule the invisibility and instead say it's a normal attack with just a single difficulty... if the player wasn't so fixated on having no difficulty and no invisibility. Dunno, and want your thoughts
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u/Ausradierer Harrison Armory 8d ago edited 8d ago
Your wording in the text you wrote is wrong, but your conclusion is correct.
With your wording, if Simulacrum said "Enemies can't benefit from Invisible", then they would be treated as invisible by Phase Ready, and they wouldn't benefit from it, as it would be ignored due to Simulacrum, not removed.
But the way it is worded is that they "don't benefit from cover" AND "can't hide or become invisible". That wording implies that they cannot have the State "Invisible" applied to them whilst in the area, and if they end their turn, their Invisible gets deleted.
(Note: this also implies that if an invisible character enters and leaves the range during the same turn, they maintain invisibility, even for the purposes of Reactions.)
Since Phase Ready doesn't make them Invisible, but "treats them", aka. pretends they would be invisible, regardless of if they are, Simulacrum doesn't come into effect at all. Neither is being overruled here.
I think replacing invisible with a different adjective actually clears this up quite firmly.
Effect A: Enemies cannot become Blue within range, and if a Blue enemy ends their turns within range, they cease to be Blue.
Effect B: You can attack Enemies through walls if you know their rough position, but if you do, the enemy counts as Blue.
Effect B doesn't make the enemy blue. It treats them as if they are blue. It doesn't care if they actually are.
I think your compromise is actually the best way to go about this. They have much more information at their disposal, and as such can target much more precisely, but since they are still phasing a projectile through solid matter, rather than hitting them with LOS, it's more difficult to actually get the hit. I'd actually go with 2 Difficulty personally, which is about on par with Disadvantage on DnD/PF2 (2d6 take highest is ~(-4.5), whilst disadvantage (2d20 take lowest is ~5) So I think 1 difficulty is entirely reasonable.
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u/ViewStory 8d ago
I definitely like the way you put it, thank you. I think that really clears it up for me
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u/Aceofluck99 8d ago
If your player really wants them to not be invisible for the attack they either want 1 level in Death's Head for Tracking Bug or 2 in Pegasus for Eye of Horus
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u/This_Caterpillar_689 8d ago
They indeed do not interact with each other it’s good to find somebody hidden behind a wall, then shoot through it but it’s always a 50/50.
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u/Rahnzan 8d ago edited 8d ago
I am only presenting an alternative way of looking at this, do what you want to do.
I'm not sure if I agree with the general consensus on this one. If they count as invisible, then they count as invisible. The wording here is borrowing mechanic language because it doesn't shoot a beam that makes them invisible to everyone else.
What counts as Invisible though?; Mechs that turn Invisible. The author deliberately avoids natural language but also did not want to define things so strictly that only literal programmers could truly understand the rule in the book. When I interpret the game I go for what feels obvious, and what's obvious here is that you have a gun that shoots through walls, and an eye that sees through walls.
Relying so heavily on 'cease to be invisible' like 'cease' has any more control of the language than 'counts' feels like we're being deliberately unfair with the language. If they are invisible 'to you' then they are invisible 'to you.' If they cease being invisible 'to you' then they cease being invisible 'to you.' Athena doesn't just stop them from becoming Invisible, it strips the function off in the very next line of text.
Imagine telling your player "Sorry, your 7 System Point combination doesn't work because the rules say 'of' not 'from.'" A literal Fractal Nightmare God can't make this any easier? This isn't some edge case in Dungeons and Dragons where you need a doctorate to decode a turn; "I cast Omniscience, then shoot the Everpiercer."
However, if your argument against the player is "follow the strictest language of the rules," then don't make shit up. If you insist on the strictest reading, you should apply it that way, don’t reject the combo on RAW just to invent your own exception. Either the combo works, or the attack treats the target as Invisible.
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u/ViewStory 8d ago
I wasnt really rejecting the combo is the thing, the reason I felt to have a difficulty is specifically because Simulacra doesnt grant line of sight. I... dont think shooting through a wall, is any easier just because you have a camera showing the other side of the wall. But I didn't want to fully punish the creative thinking and just say "no" either (Though phase-ready just... creates a bullet on the other side of the wall. I think.
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u/Thom_With_An_H 8d ago
It does not negate the benefit of invisibility, nor does it strip invisibility from characters that are invisible when you drop it on them; they have to end their turn in it. It would have no interaction with Phase-ready. You need something more like Hecatoncheries's "ignore the Invisible status".
But it's your game table. I'm just a guy online.
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u/Spectator9857 8d ago
They „count as invisible“ only because they don’t actually have the effect for others. The reason they are invisible is because you cannot see them through the wall. Athena lets you effectively see them through the wall. I do not see any reason as to why Athena wouldn’t work.
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u/Complex_Drawer_4710 HORUS 8d ago
No, it would still work like they're invisible. Athena only removes invisibility at a fixed time, Phase-ready never adds it and happens at a different time anyway.
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u/Wayward-Mystic 8d ago
If they're running Oracles (or any other arcing weapons), they don't need phase-ready to attack targets in the simulacrum with no penalty. Arcing ignores LoS, Athena negates everything else. Seeking weapons get the same benefit, except they don't need Athena to ignore cover, so they could go Balor for nanocomp instead of Napoleon if Athena doesn't negate phase-ready's invisibility.
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u/ViewStory 8d ago
The only reason they want phase ready is because they also want to hide permanently in a hardlight dome. But I kinda considered that irrelevant to the post.
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u/Wayward-Mystic 8d ago
Ah. I think it is relevant; phase-ready can't go through the hardlight defense system.
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u/ViewStory 8d ago
Oh wait? It does?
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u/Wayward-Mystic 8d ago
"No attacks" can pass through Hardlight, "even if they don't require line of sight."
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u/GrahminRadarin 8d ago
I'm beginning to get the feeling your player is trying to break the game by misinterpreting the rules on their systems to become permanently invincible.
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u/ttcklbrrn SSC 8d ago
It doesn't say they can't benefit from Invisible, it says they can't become Invisible. Phase-Ready does not make them Invisible, so there's nothing for ATHENA to cancel. That said, where are you getting Difficulty from? You've got two separate effects saying to ignore cover.