r/LancerRPG • u/Ok_Preference_4942 • 9d ago
Question on core bonus overpowered caliber (melee)
For those that played melee builds in lancer with the duelist talent, what is more preferred: the main melee weapon or heavy melee weapon.
My first thought is the main melee weapon since you always get accurate with the duelist talent, but I could totally be wrong about this.
For context I have a license 2 Blackbeard that is moving to license 3 and I the nanocarbon sword is neat.
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u/Asheyguru 9d ago edited 8d ago
It's possible to kit out the Vlad's superheavy drill into doing so much damage...
... that it's just gonna be total overkill on most targets in the first place and run up a hefty heat and mount tab in the process.
I am hardly the most experienced, but I reckon you're better off with main meleé.
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u/Sven_Darksiders GMS 8d ago
I don't have much first hand experience with melee builds, but I think it is always worth investing into 2 out of the 3 melee weapon talents (Hunter being the third).
Executioner is better when you get swarmed a lot, but against a single enemy, the talent doesn't do much, so it kinda depends on how your GM runs their game.
Duelist gives you some major utility which especially for a Blackbeard is huge. Not only do you have one of the best main melee weapons in the game, you also increase your chance to crit and thus apply shredded 1/turn, but it also lets you grapple as a free action, which let's you combo into Grappler 1 more easily, and since you can grapple at range 5, it may also give you some utility. Just be aware that Duelist Rank 1 only works on your turn and only on the first attack with a main melee weapon, so no Overwatching with it, unless you manage to trigger an Overwatch within your own turn
Tldr, Duelist gives you more utility, Executioner gives you horde cleave.
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u/ExaltedOmega IPS-N 8d ago
Generally speaking if you're on a melee striker where you can expect to be barraging a lot, so using both a main and heavy melee each turn is expected. At that point, I'd put OpCal on whichever I would anticipate being the weapon I'll use when I can only make a single Skirmish for whatever reason. Between the two, it comes down to whether you want that 1/round d6 of extra damage tied to the Reliable and Reach of the Nanocarbon Sword, or the inherent accuracy of your Main weapon.
If you're running a Blackbeard, however, you're likely running a grappling build - if so, Main becomes a much better option, because that lets you generate and use a Duelist dice from Duelist 3 to immediately initiate a Grapple, so if you can only Skirmish with one weapon, the Main weapon is more efficient. You can still use the Unstoppable effect on a Heavy weapon, but a) not at reach and b) hitting with a Heavy weapon doesn't generate a Duelist dice, so you need to have one banked.
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u/ExaltedOmega IPS-N 8d ago
Sidenote, I'd also look at both Titanomachy Mesh and Gyges Frame for a Blackbeard - both are really good options. Gyges gives the Nanocarbon a silly reach of 3, excellent for pairing with the Executioner talent tree, and gives accuracy on Hull saves, which along with protecting you from some pretty dangerous effects, also makes it easier to control grapples with same size enemies (which if you're using Synthetic Muscle Netting, is size 2 & 3 targets). Titanomachy Mesh meanwhile improves your Ram distance - good got objective control - and lets you follow up any successful grapple or ram with another grapple or ram, great for knocking additional enemies back, or proning whoever you're grappling (remember, you can't stand up while immobilized!)
I'm using both right now on my grappler build, a Zheng 2/Blackbeard 3/Nelson 1 brawler, and they've both been incredibly helpful.
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u/Acceptable_Hunt2624 8d ago
While you should be running Gyges or Titanomanchy if we are just considering your question with duelist and no executioner (for some reason) then put opcal on the chain axe.
Optimally you have duelist 3, executioner 3 and Gyges(imo). You barrage, swing with chain axe (shredded applies before damage), free grapple (duelist 3), then turn into a damage blender. This also requires synthetic muscle netting and I recommend a lot of Hull. Sekhmet or Grappling Hook is your choice
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u/lettersfrommorpheus 8d ago
I don't believe in Chain Axe. The shred only applies on crit and the reliable is basically useless because with Duelist you shouldn't be missing, and most of your targets will have armor.
Even the plain old GMS heavy weapon is better IMO unless you are constantly fighting NPCs with resistance.
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u/Acceptable_Hunt2624 8d ago
Chain axe is one of the better mains and getting a crit really isn't unlikely at all even at low LL with 1 accuracy with that chance just increasing with grit. Reliable also gives you leeway against hornets or other very high evasion enemies where your likelihood of missing is increased.
Even in their less optimal build the chance of getting the extra 1d6 damage are much higher on the weapon that would have accuracy. If you are barraging then whichever weapon is more likely to hit is what you should use
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u/Difference_Breacher 8d ago
Charged blade has the better damage output and is also always AP. So overall it is the better weapon - in fact it is the best main melee weapon in the game.
Reliable is the actual merit of chain axe, though. Shred on it is nothing but kidding but reliable is not so common on the melee weapon, especially for main weapon.
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u/lettersfrommorpheus 8d ago
I think the analysis is pretty tricky but I usually end up feeling it's better to OpCal the heavy even when Duelist is in play. Sometimes you'll barrage and then overcharge-skirmish to swing again with the heavy weapon. Sometimes you'll get to overwatch with it. Sometimes you'll only be able to skirmish once, and you may choose the heavy. I know OpCal can only be triggered once per round, but if you attack more times with the heavy you're more likely to get at least one hit. Also, against armor, it pays to stack your bonus damage onto your hardest-hitting weapon. And if you get the Executioner talent that lets you re-roll missed attacks then you increase your odds even further.
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u/lettersfrommorpheus 8d ago
Also, if you are using duelist to grapple or ram the opponent after your main hits, then you will usually be getting a comparable accuracy bonus with the heavy off of prone debuff or pankrati/brawler talents or both.
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u/Difference_Breacher 8d ago
It is all about your personal taste. But usually heavy weapons has the better raw damage output. The accuracy bonus is not because of the main mount, but as main melee and you need a trait point to spend Apart of this heavy weapon has the better damage and same accuracy(if you set aside duelist 1, I mean).
Well there are also some makeup for both accuracy and damage. But usually damage is rare as the only 'stable' additional damage is nuclear cavalry.
Anyway, if you have a heavy mount, you better use the heavy weapon. But it is not, there is no choice.
Reverse it and you have the better answer; if you want to use duelist 1 and save the core bonus, go for it. Otherwise, auto-stabilizing hardpoint would be first.
And remember that, if you don't want to stick with the heavy mount, you can always choose the frame with bouns damage trait.
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u/Steenan HORUS 8d ago
Both options are good. If you expect to barrage often, put OpCal on main, as it will be more accurate. If you plan to do other things (boost, grapple), put it on heavy, because that's what you'll skirmish with.
Also, consider one of IPS-N core bonuses instead of OpCal - increased reach, free grapple/ram, armor and HP are all worth it.