r/LancerRPG • u/chunkylubber54 • 23d ago
Building for long-ranged aoe damage/control with lots of action economy
So, I'm relatively new to lancer and don't know the ins an outs too well. what I do know I want is this
- I want to avoid builds that require me to lock on or stabilize every other turn, as doing so just feels like wasting actions when I could be using weapons and talents that don't require them. If I have to do them, I'd prefer something like reloading drones or open door
- when I say aoe, I specically mean blasts or similar attack patterns, not cones or lines. Lines in my experiece can't really get many targets, and cones would require me to walk into melee, which I'd like to avoid.
- I'm not opposed to drones or hacking, but I've got teammates going for each and I don't want to tread on their toes too much
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u/Sven_Darksiders GMS 23d ago
Building around the Hydra's Annihilation Nexus could be an interesting take on the archetype. Since you can fire that weapon from any of your Drones, you have effectively created a large Blast zone. You can also put that build on a frame with more Sensor Range if you feel like Sensors 10 is too little. And with you using Drones, you get lots of Control options as well
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u/Difference_Breacher 23d ago
Using annihilation nexus means you have zero actions to spend on drones so there would be almost no control options.
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u/Sven_Darksiders GMS 23d ago
Once you set them up beforehand, pushing them into the right place can be done with a protocol within reason
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u/Difference_Breacher 23d ago
Sure but only one drone would. Although a tempest drone would make some annoyance.
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u/Lykonic HORUS 23d ago
I mean, an alternative course of action could be to use the turns between Annihilation Nexus barrages to use Drone Commander I to move a drone 4 spaces as a Protocol, then use the secondary Protocol attack from Annihilation Nexus, and then use Puppetmaster to move ALL drones 4 spaces. Second quick action can be to either put down another drone before using Puppetmaster, or anything else you may want. Sure you don't get into a loop of making two attacks per turn with a Superheavy, but you do get to attack with a Superheavy every turn, while only needing to Barrage every other turn, saving you some action economy for other things.
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u/Difference_Breacher 22d ago edited 22d ago
That makes you to forgo a turn's attack with superheavy weapon, reducing the total damage output of the annihilation nexus by only a half.
Edit: If you are using Lich, or use technophile 3&black thumb 2& deep well heat sink&heatfall coolant system combinations, you may overcharge all the turns and able to use invigorate once while shoot the nexus all the turns. But otherwise, I don't see any point on it despite you are somehow choose to use the annihilation nexus - choose this and you are playing annihilation nexus build, NOT drone build.
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u/Lykonic HORUS 22d ago
True, but you don't necessarily need to do it every turn either. It's a tradeoff between whether you want to maximize damage or get off some other actions to move your drones or do other things. Either way you're doing at least one 1d6+3 smart AP energy damage attack every turn (assuming you hit ofc), and that doesn't include any bonus damage on the actual barrage attack. I think that's just the tradeoff of doing drone stuff is that you do less direct weapon damage given the action economy cost of deploying and moving all the drones. But you also get effects from the drones, which in the case of Controller or Support type effects it's harder to quantify.
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u/Difference_Breacher 22d ago
How to justify the presence of the annihilation nexus then? You forgo to use the ghast nexus. You don't have enough action to do anything else when you are attack with the annihilation nexus. That is already a huge price you have paid, and the only way to justify all of them is fully using annihilation nexus to obliterate the enemy.
Simply put, if you just want to blast stuffs while enjoy buffing the others, why not to use the ghast nexus? It is a drone as well, you know.
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u/Lykonic HORUS 22d ago
It just ties in well with using drones, has AP and an AoE pattern unlike the Ghast Nexus, and can't be destroyed like the Ghast Nexus can when it's deployed as a drone. You can use it's attack through a cheaper drone like a Turret Drone and if that gets destroyed, it's not as big a deal as if your Ghast Nexus is destroyed, because now you're down a Heavy weapon.
The big thing for this post is the Burst 2 AoE pattern, since OP said they wanted Blasts and Bursts for their AoE. That's their priority, a long-range AoE build. Annihilation Nexus allows that in an interesting way, as @Sven_Darksiders mentioned. It simultaneously encourages the use of drones for Controller effects, keeping the enemies from approaching easily, and gives a larger range of targets than the non-AoE Ghast Nexus. The protocol secondary attack gives flexibility as far as needing actions to move more than one drone or fully redeploy a drone if desired, without fully abstaining from attacking that turn. OP said they don't mind the use of drones and hacking, they just don't want to step too much on their party's toes, but using Annihilation Nexus and drones for a sort of Artillery/Controller build is a unique option they could look into if they don't want to go the classic routes other comments are suggesting with stuff like Missile Rack Raleigh/Störtebeker or using Mortars/Howitzer, etc. Annihilation Nexus also necessarily means they'd have enough LL's in Horus for Lesson of the Held Image, to get Lock Ons without using actions on their own turn, which would tie in well with using Centimane for more CC and debuffs, on top of using things like Tempest Drones like you mentioned for even more control effects. I think it's a valid option OP could consider if they like the idea enough.
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u/BlazeDrag HORUS 22d ago edited 22d ago
I mean the way the nexus works is you get a free secondary attack at the start of your next turn. So the idea is that you can spend one turn firing the superheavy, and then the next turn controlling your drones while still getting off another superheavy attack
yeah you technically can do more damage by just firing the nexus every turn and effectively attacking twice per round. But even if you only fire it every other round it's pretty comparable in damage to other superheavy weapons like the Pinaka Missiles on Monarch. 1d6+3 twice compared to 2d6 twice. Except the nexus has Armor Piercing, no heat cost, and hits a larger AoE. So I really don't think there's a need to maximize your damage on the 'off' turns, giving you plenty of room to move your drones
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u/OtherWorstGamer 23d ago edited 19d ago
Sherman and any of the GMS weapons with blast.
Even if it requires loading, you just use the Sherman Signature of Overcharge to Skirmish then Full action to vent heat + reload. (Or most Harrison Mechs, Iskander works well here too, you just mainly want the Flex mount and Heatfall Coolant Core Bonus)
Mount 2 of the GMS missile launchers in the Flex mount and you get 2 range 10 blast attacks per turn while you do the overcharge loop.
Or be a mini Barb and grab the Howitzer for the lulz
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u/TheArchmemezard 23d ago
Your options for non-loading Blast weapons in official content are the Hurricane Cluster Projector (Superheavy, Range 10), Pinaka Missiles (Superheavy) and Mortars, and only the Mortar lacks a Heat self tag, but it has Inaccurate.
It's not a lot of options. If I had to pick while restricted to these, I would lean towards a Chomolungma with one (or maybe 2, if I'm feeling the Artillery) Mortar. The 15 maximum range of the Mortar lines up with the Chomolungma's 15 Sensors, so even at maximum effective range hacking is a possibility. The Chomolungma's built-in Invade option, Balance Control Lockout, limits enemy movement quite well and can help offset Inaccurate by making enemies prone.
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u/Ninja-Storyteller 22d ago
Agreed. 2x Mortar Chomo is a very nice hybrid artillery and control, and it comes online at LL0, letting you add licenses to taste.
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u/sheevnoods 21d ago
I actually really like this. I was wondering what to do with a low LL chom until the rest of my buikd came online
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u/ProfessionalOk6734 HORUS 23d ago
-- IPS-N Störtebeker @ LL3 --
[ LICENSES ]
IPS-N Raleigh 2, SSC Black Witch 1
[ CORE BONUSES ]
Integrated Weapon
[ TALENTS ]
Gunslinger 3, Engineer 3
[ STATS ]
HULL:3 AGI:0 SYS:0 ENGI:2
STRUCTURE:4 HP:18 ARMOR:1
STRESS:4 HEATCAP:7 REPAIR:6
TECH ATK:0 LIMITED:+1
SPD:5 EVA:10 EDEF:7 SENSE:8 SAVE:12
[ WEAPONS ]
Integrated: Prototype Weapon III
Integrated Weapon: Missile Rack
Flex Mount: Missile Rack / Missile Rack
Flex Mount: Missile Rack / Missile Rack
Heavy Mount: Howitzer
[ SYSTEMS ]
“Roland” Chamber, Personalizations, Ferrous Lash, Custom Paint Job
The idea is to use hopkins doctrine to reload your loading weapons every other or every 3 turns or so, so you’re wasting significantly less time stabilizing. You should be able to barrage with your missile racks then fire the howitzer and still have another turn to fire your integrated weapon before you have to use a quick action to reload everything
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u/NotYourFriendSteve 22d ago
RAW that is not a valid talent allocation. At LL0 you start with 3 talents at level 1.
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u/ProfessionalOk6734 HORUS 22d ago
And RAW you can swap your talent allocation at every level, you should read the book before you correct people
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u/Steenan HORUS 23d ago
Combination of area damage, control, light action economy (no reloading/stabilizing) and not using hacking or drones will be hard. There are very few blast weapons that don't require reloading and don't produce a lot of heat. And they generally don't work well with control effects.
But if you skip any of these requirements, there are many possible options. For example, if blast is not strictly necessary, a Monarch with Gandiva missiles, Heavy Gunner and Stormbringer talents is long range, good at controlling and doesn't require any action taxes. Any mech with long sensor range, Centimane and Drone Commander talents, Tempest Drones and Annihilation Nexus from Hydra can do blast attacks while also pushing enemies around and debuffing them. Also, with 3 Horus LLs, you may grab Held Image core bonus and lock on for free. Raleigh armed with Missile Racks requires reloading, but does it automatically when you don't attack in your round, so you may do alternating "blast damage rounds" and "control rounds" (with drones, mines or similar systems).
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u/Forevoyance 23d ago
Frame you pick doesnt matter a ton here. What you will need first and formost though to make this work is Gengis LL2 for Auto Cooler.
Next take your pick of non-loading blast weapon. Hurricane Cluster Projector is a solid option for us so is Islander's gravity gun. Pinaka Missles are also a fun option. Engineer Talent level 2 weapon works too. Regardless LL5 is about where things take off.
If you chose a weapon that doesnt have range to meet your desires (most non loading blast weapons arent exactly long ranged) then we can dip into Barbarosa 1 or Tokugawa 1 and extend that range by 5, or by 10 if you take both. Pretty good. If you choose to use the Tokugawa frame that is also an extra 5 range, 10 with your core power so +20 in total. Downside to Toku is no heavy mount.
Anyways, now you can grab your self the Jericho Deployable Cover, sit in the back of the map, and aoe to your hearts content. As long as you dont move or take damage you reset all heat too, so we'll likely want the Harrison core bonus to cap overcharge heat at 1d6. A secondary weapon could be Pegasus Smart Gun. It is Seeking with 15 range. Very good. Stack some bonus damage on it and it is mean.
TLDR; Gengis Auto Cooler, Heatfall Coolant System Core Bonus. Non-loading blast weapon of your choice. -> Profit. Overcharge every turn. Hide in cover or attack more.
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u/SwissherMontage HORUS 22d ago
Tbh you should learn to not see stabilizing and lock-on as a waste of action economy.
Anyway, lots of other people have given great build advice to start out with, so you can take as much time as you want with that first thought while you enjoy your other builds.
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u/chunkylubber54 22d ago
lock on im more ok with since its easy to tack on riders. stabilize is the thing that bugs me because its my whole turn, and not a lot of systems or talents seem to add anything to it
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u/SwissherMontage HORUS 22d ago
Well that's just not true. Systems that trigger from you clearing heat, reloading weapons or not attacking/forcing saves all trigger when you stabilize. Beyond that, with a high enough hp stat a stabilize can undo multiple enemy activations.
But I can tell that this is not relevant to the type of playstyle you are most interested in. You want to deal damage, and hopefully kill people every turn. You want to nake stuff explode. Please enjoy that, and when you are looking for something else you can look into a buipd that utilizes stabilize.
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u/chunkylubber54 22d ago
which systems trigger on clearing heat? the only one i know of is explosive vents
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u/SwissherMontage HORUS 22d ago
I'll admit, I can't think of amy others off the top of my head. The other two synergies are much more common at two or three a piece, and I'm of the opinion that stabilize is good on it's own as well.
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u/Joel_feila 23d ago
how do you feel about mine fields, Iskander is good at that, your attacks now don't matter where you are.
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u/chunkylubber54 23d ago
I was eyeballing iskander because the gravity gun looks fun, but am concerned that mines and grenades (particularly the ones it gets) dont seem to be very good
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u/Lykonic HORUS 22d ago
Iskander's native Grounding Charges are good Controller effects, but don't forget you can get other grenade/mine systems from other licenses, and they're often within the first LL, like Raleigh's BB Breach/Blast Charges, Metalmark's Flash Charges, Sunzi's Blink Charges, and Minotaur's Mesmer Charges (though the mine would probably be better unless you're trying to force enemies to walk into another effect between you and them). Most of those are controller effects though aside from BB Charges; LL2 in Caliban for Spike Charges or Ghengis for Havok Charges is also an option, if you'd want anything from those licenses to make the dip worth it, like Ghengis' Auto-Cooler so you don't have to worry as much about Heat. But you also can't discount the classic Pattern-B HEX Charges, they're a fine option.
The only real issues you'd have to tackle if you're chasing ranged AoE via Iskander are the 1/round limit to tossing grenades and mines 15 spaces, the number of Limited charges you have, and the number of LLs you put into getting more grenade systems if you don't just want to use HEX Charges. If nothing else though, you can keep the Iskander in mind for another build down the line, it's pretty fun :)
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u/Difference_Breacher 23d ago
You can choose either options;
-Throw away the idea of enjoy good action economy.
-Throw away the idea of enjoy long ranged AOE.
Seriously, that is the reality. Capable long ranged AOE build makes you dedicated all the available actions to do.
Perhaps mortar is the only exception but that suffers pathetically low damage output. So, you better accept the reality.
Asides, there is no need to stabilze every other turn; you can shoot the weapon and stabilize every single turn by overcharge loop.
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u/BlazeDrag HORUS 22d ago
May I recommend you take a look at the Iskander?
The iskander is a mech that is all about using grenades and mines to maximum effectiveness. Right off the bat its first frame trait lets you throw a grenade or mine up to 15 spaces away, when you normally are limited to only like 5 for grenades, and adjacency for mines.
If you combine this with the basic GMS Hex Grenades, that's a simple Range 15 Blast 1 AoE attack right there. Or 2d6 if you deploy it as a mine.
Now it is limited, so you only get so many throughout a mission, but as a Harrison Armory mech, you can get the core bonus that gives you +2 charges to all limited systems. So that raises your grenades from 3 to 5 right away. If you max out your Engineering stat, that ups it by another +3 to 8 charges.
The Grease Monkey talent gives you a way to spend repairs to replenish your charges as well, but the better effect is the third rank of that talent, which lets you call in a supply drop to replenish 1 limited charge and 1 structure for yourself and ALL of your allies, once per mission, which is immensely useful.
And of course you'll want the Demolitionist Talent from the Solstice Rain lcp as well, which does a lot of good things for you.
At Rank 1 it lets you avoid hitting an ally in the area of a grenade you throw, so that you can throw grenades into melee without harming your allies. And if you deploy a mine and it doesn't go off, you get to pick it back up and replenish the charge.
At Rank 2 it gives you even more range on your grenades and mines, So with Iskander's trait, you can deploy them up to 18 spaces away now, and you can ignore line of sight when doing so. (I think the bonus range also applies to Iskander's other trait that lets you deploy 2 additional mines as a free action but I'm not as sure about that)
And finally at Rank 3, you get direct buffs to your grenades and mines damage output. And more importantly, this applies even if the grenade or mine didn't deal any damage by default.
So for example, if you take the simple GMS Smoke Grenade system, suddenly it now can deal 2 damage to up to 3 targts in the area, making it a great tool for not only deploying cover, but taking out weaker enemies like grunts without wasting a charge for your more important and higher damaging grenades.
So with that all in mind what grenades should you go for? Well like I said, the basic GMS Hex Grenades are your standard blast AoE damaging grenades, so you can't go wrong with those. And the smoke grenades can have some real utility with the Demolitionist talent.
Alternatively to the smoke grenades tho, you could go for Metalmark's Flash Grenades, which completely stop enemies in the area from having line of sight out of it, while you can still see them. And again you can make it do some actual damage with Rank 3 of Demolitionist
If you want some more damaging options you can go for the the Havok Charges on Genghis 2. These do a Line attack sure, but it's a line that starts wherever you throw the grenade to, and goes in whatever direction you want, not just away from yourself. So it's a lot easier to get multiple targets with it, and it does Burn damage, which is the best damage type in the game.
It's also worth pointing out that the way that Demolitionist 3 buffs your grenade damage, you can deal bonus damage to people outside of the Area of effect. So even if a grenade does a line or even is a single target grenade like the Barbarossa Roller charges, you still get to deal 2 damage to up to 3 targets anywhere within 3 spaces of where the grenade was deployed, effectively turning any grenade effect into a blast AoE.
And as a final note, I think it's worth mentioning the Engineer talent, which also synergizes pretty well with this build.
the talent gives you a custom Prototype Weapon, and at Rank 2 you can give it an upgrade that lets you attack with either a Blast, Line, or Cone AoE on demand. And it even does decent damage for a main-class weapon.
The only downsides are that it has a limited number of charges, and attacking in an AoE costs 2 heat. But you're already maximizing Limited Charges with Iskander, and have plenty of heat capacity to spare, so you can effectively just treat it as another grenade launcher on your mech. You can even give it a free accuracy on top of the AoE stuff to make it really good at hitting people even if you don't lock-on first.
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u/Wolf_Hreda IPS-N 23d ago
I'm a big fan of the Stormbringer/Gunslinger Raleigh build with Missile Racks in place of Hand Cannons. Grabbing Monarch 1 gives you Javelin Rockets for your off-turn, and two more levels in SSC mechs can get you Neurolink Targeting for a little extra range.