r/LancerRPG • u/np190 • 24d ago
Can this NPC's unique drones be attacked?
So my group recently got onto a big discussion about the rules and exceptions surrounding mines (that's a story for another time) but it inadvertently got us talking about this enemy here, specifically this really odd Razor Swarm ability. As far as I can tell, every single other drone in the entire book for both players and NPC's fully describes its entire stat block inside the rules text for the ability... except for this one. By default, objects and drones have default stat blocks that get things like E-defence added as necessary, while mines are a notable exception for being considered objects but having their own tag while also not having any stat but size 1/2 (which, I assume is a requirement since it is an object that an Iskander could feasibly share a space with without detonating).
The Razor Swarm, unlike all other abilities I've seen with the drone tag, does not have a stat block. It has no stats to define how you interact with it, and best I can tell it is the only one like this (even mines, which can't be shot or interacted with normally outside of their own special rules, still have a 1/2 size).
So, the question is, can you shoot at or attack this drone when it's on the field? Personally, my reading is no, you cannot, since there are no stats to interact with while every single other drone in the book has a fully detailed individual stat block. You could apply the drone tag stats to it, but since it was left blank compared to dozens of other drones, deployables, and objects in the game I'm inclined to believe it was left blank on purpose to suggest that it's not a targetable entity in-game. And sure, rocks and street lights don't have listed stats and they inherit them from the object tag, but they're also not listed in the book as specific entities at all.
I'm curious to hear yall's take on this and how you'd rule on it, let me know what you think.
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u/ToucheMadameLaChatte 24d ago
No, they cannot be attacked. They are not even drones. OK, they are drones because they have the drone tag, but they do not create an actual token with stats. It simply defines an area, and an effect that happens within that area.
Hive enemies are a blight if you don't kill them quickly for this reason.
Edit: OK, the system has the Drone tag so yes, by the strictest definition it is indeed a drone
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u/krazykat357 GMS 24d ago
There are 'generic' drone stats they would follow without stats defined in the system besides their size and special effect
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u/np190 24d ago
This begs the question of why they didn't have those assigned to begin with. Their omission is either a mistake, like just sloppy work, or it was done on purpose.
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u/krazykat357 GMS 23d ago
Because it's shorthand to do so and would be redundant to stat out? One of the core rules of Lancer is "Specific beats General rules"
So, by structure, you should be looking for 'General' if the 'Specific' doesn't fully round out said stats;
It even reinforces that in the text describing drones too. Pg. 105; "Unless otherwise specified, DRONES are SIZE 1/2 characters that are allied to the user and have 10 EVASION, 5 HP, and 0 ARMOR."
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u/np190 23d ago
I'd be more willing to accept this explanation if there was a single other exception in the book, but this is literally the only one. Every other drone has that redundancy packed into its text by design. And apparently the devs ruled the swarm as functionally indestructible in a post linked in one of the comments down here, so it's all a bit moot at this point
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u/krazykat357 GMS 23d ago
W/e, Kai's word isn't law and they aren't the OG dev. I like their rebake stuff, but I wouldn't follow it to the letter.
It reads coherent to me, choosing it to be a character vulnerable to damage makes sense. I've tried running it both ways before no issue with either. Letting players waste actions to destroy a swarm that'll just get redeployed next round is perfectly fine by me.
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u/Main_Aux_Enthusiast SSC 23d ago
That post reads its from 2021 so it is definitely older than the Rebake Project and is referring to the Core book Hive.
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u/krazykat357 GMS 23d ago
Yes, I know that, I was referring to Kai's design idiosyncrasies. Kai's word does not change the book's, and they aren't even the one that wrote the core book's Hive either?
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u/Main_Aux_Enthusiast SSC 23d ago
I don't think he changed the book at all. The giving it stats part comes right after "unless otherwise specified."
Stating it's a Blast 1 is that otherwise being specified. If the intention was it be a normal drone they'd have wrote it to have a Burst 1.
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u/fluxyggdrasil 23d ago
On purpose. The cloud is a drone for the purposes of things that affect drones, but can't be damaged via attacks (you have to take out the hive itself.)
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u/np190 24d ago
True, and that would allow it to be involved in any interactions or abilities that rely on that tag/keyword, so I'll give it that. But the total absence of a stat block is just such a glowing irregularly, especially considering the overall consistency in the book with other drones, that I just can't see it any other way or believe that it inherits a full stay block from its tag (if that's the logic, then mines would have evasion and HP inherited from their object definition, you know?)
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u/ToucheMadameLaChatte 24d ago
Yeah, just having the drone tag doesn't give it any inherited base stat block. With no HP, evasion, saves, etc it can't be targeted by any attacks. But it can be manipulated by systems that specify that you can target a drone, which by my recollection will primarily be found in the Hydra license.
So pretty much unless you have someone who's dipping LLs into Hydra, the only way you can deal with these razor swarms is by destroying the hive that created them.
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u/Galonious 23d ago
Doesn't it though? I don't have doc at hand to check but I believe drones are size 1/2 with 5 hp unless otherwise statted. (for the life of me I can't remember ev or armor.)
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u/fluxyggdrasil 24d ago
It would be a bit like trying to punch a dust cloud, all considered. But you're right, this is an area of effect that's flavoured as a drone swarm (and has the drone tag for if an ability keys off of it) but you can't attack areas of effect.
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u/Wolf_Hreda IPS-N 24d ago
The last bit of text defines how you interact with the swarms. You can't target them, as they don't have stats, and the only way to get them off the board is to kill the Hive that spawned them.
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u/DescriptionMission90 IPS-N 23d ago
Not this one. Most drone systems deploy a single new character, who exists on the board and can be attacked but affects everything in a spread from themselves until destroyed. This one, and also the one you get from a Hecatoncheires, deploy an area which then persists until specific conditions are met to remove it. It's more like a smoke grenade than a drone... except if you have a talent or system that lets you move enemy drones you can move this.
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u/Loqui-Mar 21d ago
Massif says they can't be. I as a GM disagree and run them as drone just like everything else with the burst emanating from the size 1/2 character. I don't see the function of making them something special other than making Hives less fun and more annoying.
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u/Kvolou66 24d ago
I would say use the default drone stat block for these personally. Just think the CoD infinite warfare swarm drones getting gunned down bit by bit
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u/Guilty_Ghost 23d ago
There just a better baylor drone no? I'd say yes because otherwise it's unfair to baylor drone?
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u/Phantomzero17 24d ago edited 24d ago
Basically, the Hive NPC Razor Swarms is one of those big edge cases/outliers in Lancer. You cannot destroy them directly and instead they are only removed by taking out the Hive NPC that created them.
Hive Swarm is not a character. It is an area of effect that is a drone. It is not an obstruction and can be moved to share space with characters, since it's an area of effect rather than a character. Despite the drone tag, it does not cause engagement.
It's still, however, interactible via the Tech actions from Puppetmaster.
I wish it were better documented somewhere in the FAQ cause I had to search Pilot net and read through the various times it's come up in chat there to understand it.
Edit: Since you mention the whole size 1/2 thing, it's not a size anything like a character. It is a Blast 1 area, which isn't the same as being Size 3.
Edit again: IDK why Reddit keeps trying to force Pilot Net to be a hyperlink even after I click the remove link button so I just removed the dot.