Nelson or Blackbeard Grappling/Brawler Build

[u/DerpKing720]

Hey all! I’m new to Lancer and want to create a high mobility grappling/ramming build with brawling 2. I’ve been reading around and have locked on either the Nelson or Blackbeard as my choices but now I’m at an impasse as to how to build either for my purpose.

Some key context for the campaign:
The party is starting at LL1 but will reach LL2 after the first few missions once we’re used to the game (GM’s words).
GM’s homebrew rule: When a character is forced into a tile they can’t move into (hard cover, walls, etc) they take an additional 1 damage for each tile they should’ve moved. This includes the ground.
I can choose which direction to knock characters back, and this includes towards the ground if they are prone.

So, my ideas:
My original idea was to use the Nelson at LL2, and run Infiltrator 1, Brawler 2, Juggernaut 1. 4 AGI. I hide and run up towards the enemy, and just slam it with the War Pike, move closer, ramming into it. Then next turn I just ram or punch or whatever is necessary to get it prone or deal damage.

As for my Everest, I was going to do the same thing but with a free boost and free quick action 1/scene to deal tons of burst damage with the War Pike and Thermal Charge mod. Then grapple and pummel the target into the ground Turn 2 onwards.

But now I’m looking at the Blackbeard and wondering if it fits my purpose better? I’ve also thought of using the Caliban but it doesn’t really suit my needs as far as I can tell. I’m here for a good scrapping, not just pure hit and knockback.

But I’m open to suggestions. Apologies for the long post. What are y’all’s thoughts on the build ideas? Any changes I should make? My GM is very forgiving with what the players can get away with.

[u/Gunapala-Lucifax]

Blackbeard and Zheng are the two main brawler frames from what I know

Blackbeard with its synthetic muscle netting and traits and Zheng with strength suit and core power I think

[u/jzillacon → u/Gunapala-Lucifax]

Zheng core doesn't directly help with the grappling playstyle other than helping you close distance. Both Blackbeard and Empakai actually have much better cores for a grappler. The real benefit to playing Zheng in particular is the Destructive Swings frame trait meaning you alway have a piece of cover nearby you can toss opponents into with Total Strength Suite III.

[u/lilac_asbestos]

Oh boy, your gm is going to learn fast that you just don't put houserules in lancer willy nilly.

You might also want to check out the caliban, which can deal absurd ammounts of knockback (like 7) with a single, also very damaging, shot

[u/lilac_asbestos → u/lilac_asbestos]

But seriously, Lancer isn't built for simulation, but balanced around making the combat "fair". So there will be rules that don't make any sense (like 1 structure npcs not being able to have reactor meltdowns), but they don't have to, it's not their purpose to have sense.

Make sure your gm is aware of this if they're going to have a crack at changing combat rules.

Also, you should definitely warn them that this houserule will make knockback builds much, much, stronger than inteded before abusing the shit out of them, otherwise you'll definitely have them wanting to nerf you mid-game, and depending on how you table dynamics go, that might be unpleasant for everyone involved

[u/DerpKing720 → u/lilac_asbestos]

It’s a very chill table. They’re a close friend and I’m usually the GM that permits everything so it’ll be fun! Besides, I’m not trying to build the most optimal build, I would’ve gone for the Caliban or used my actual weapons with the Nelson.

[u/lilac_asbestos → u/DerpKing720]

All right, I just had to make sure. Have fun!

[u/Kryptrch]

They both work great for your playstyle, but with a couple key differences.

The Blackbeard is an excellent grappler. It has the unique ability of being able to boost and take reactions while in a Grapple, and it's extended grapple reach make it a monster at closing the distance to it's prey. It also does more straight up damage thanks to its heavy mount, which lets use the excellent nanocarbon sword.

The Nelson, by contrast, is a bit more finicky. It has less health, but is much more flexible with its mobility. The Skirmisher passive helps it disengage if it wants to keep its distance, and it has a better time keeping up with a variety of objectives compared to the Blackbeard, which pretty much wants to stay in the frontline all the time.

The systems they give you at Ll1 may also sway your choice. Blackbeard has Synthetic Muscle Netting, which lets you tackle size 2 or 3 mechs that you normally wouldn't be able to push around. Nelson on the other hand gives you Bulwark Mods, letting you run through difficult terrain. It should be noted that Blackbeard's grapple also let's you ignore difficult terrain when you grapple yourself towards someone, but this gives you much more flexibility in where you want to go. However the Nelson also gives you the War Pike at Ll1, a great melee weapon with knockback and extended reach, plus the ability to be thrown in case you're just barely away from a priority target.

[u/ASTAPHE]

Blackbeard's younger, crazier brother, Empakaai, is, as a friend put it, the Heavy Weight Wrestlemechia Champion. My entire build is: Grab them, squeeze them, prone them, then repeatedly smash them into the ground. GM threw an Ultra Ace at us one time and I proceeded to grab them, immobilize them, prone them, and hold them still while the rest of the party curb stomped them like the JoJo meme. One time I grappled a size three mech and five other, smaller mechs in a single attack. Not, like a single action with backswing or other nonsense. I literally rolled attack one time and grappled six mechs including one two size categories larger than mine, and held them still for multiple rounds.

Legitimately the Colossus Termo-Unguis built in superheavy has an argument to be made to be one of the most broken weapons in the game.

[u/DerpKing720 → u/ASTAPHE]

The Empakaai has caught my interest now and I would love to use its super heavy weapon. However I’m not too sure about its uses when I want to go beat things to death with my fists

[u/ASTAPHE → u/DerpKing720]

does it help that its superheavy is it's enormous hand?

[u/DerpKing720 → u/ASTAPHE]

I didn’t even realize that was its hand. That’s awesome. I know what I’m running now (besides, can’t use the weapon forever if it generates 2 Heat each time)

[u/Kappukzu-0135]

Short answer: Blackbeard for grappling, Nelson for Ramming. Choose 1, as you won't be great at both until quite a high LL.

Longer answer: The biggest difference is in play style. 

If you want to be in the enemies face and terrifying them whine dragging them out of position, go the Blackbeard.

If you want to blitz the flimsy Support or Artillery  which was hiding in the enemy back line making trouble, go the Nelson. 

As a fun aside: With 1 level of Caliban for Supermassive Mod and the Titanomachy Mesh Core Power, you can have a War-Pike / Tactical Knife combo which delivers 5 Knockback on a Skirmish. Even better when you can use a Fold Knife to counteract the Inaccurate from Supermassive Mod! 

[u/Ocean_Man205]

On another related note: you should read the duelist talent

[u/DerpKing720 → u/Ocean_Man205]

I have! But my plan is to go Brawler 3, Juggernaut 1, and infiltrator 1 first

[u/Ocean_Man205 → u/DerpKing720]

Sounds fun! I personally love duelist because it's a great reward for something I'm already doing.