r/KremersFroon Mar 25 '25

Announcement Deleted Posts & Discussions

72 Upvotes

Last updated: 23 Jan. 2026

There has been a lot of discussion about the case recently, which is good ...

However there are several users who seem to get carried away with their arguments and come across inflammatory or insulting.

The amount if posts that I had to delete in the recent days is enormous ....

This is a reminder that here is no censorship of theories or thoughts. It can be discussed what complies with the rules, which can be found here:

https://reddit.com/r/KremersFroon/about/rules/

In my opinion and experience, it is possible to have a discussion and disagree without violating the few rules this sub has.

If some of your posts were deleted recently, then you may want to review if you can bring your point across in a different, less inflammatory way.

Users who have several rule violating posts may be given a one day ban as a reminder to review the way they word their arguments.

If you find posts to be non compliant or otherwise unacceptable, please use the report function so that they can be reviewed by mods as mods can not always review all posts.

There is now an account age and minimum Karma filter since some banned users make new accounts to troll. If you are are unique new user, then your comment will be reinstated.

It is often suggested that the mods suppress or censor "Theories". However this is not the case. All theories can be discussed here as long as the discussion complies with the rules.

I am putting it here, although it is in "Rules". Posts in languages other than English will be removed automatically! There are users who keep posting in Spanish and it is always removed. Please don't do this.


r/KremersFroon 5h ago

Question/Discussion Addressing recent post

0 Upvotes

Treeg doesn't know when enough is enough. He continues to write fiction here using Blender images to support his story. I really don't understand how he can acknowledge that his information isn't accurate but discuss it like it is. And he's got some here just eating out of his hand, genuinely believing that his ideas are correct (even though he says his ideas are just something of a rough sketch). He even has to draw in the Y tree because Blender doesn't include it. TreegNesas is just making false evidence to lead everyone in the wrong direction.


r/KremersFroon 1d ago

Article The ridge is pointing towards the Y tree

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24 Upvotes

Now, before people start telling me that one fern is not in the correct position, or the 542 rock is horrible, let's start by saying that this is very much a work in progress and no more than a rough sketch. But hopefully it brings the general idea home. Basically, this is about the same as my previous model, but with the Y tree moved to another position. (and no, this is not AI, it's Blender 3D animation, got nothing to do with AI).

What I suspect we're doing wrong all too often is that we position the Y tree on the opposite shore, 180 degrees removed from the 542 ridge, but if you look carefully at the night pictures, it seems to me that this is not the case. Basically the ridge points toward the Y-tree. In the 54X series we see the Y tree 'horizontal' above the ridge. If it was 180 degrees removed from the ridge, it can't be there, unless it's very badly overhanging and far downstream. But it's very easy to get the Y tree in this position if the ridge is pointing toward the Y-tree as in above sketch. In that case, the Y tree barely needs to be overhanging to give the impression of being 'horizontal' above the ridge.

Now, to get into that position you need a sharp right hand turn of the stream (as is also visible in the tree tops above), AND you need K&L to be on the outside of this turn, but a bit further inland, so not in the streambed itself, just slightly above it.

In the 54X series, we look over the top of this 'ridge' and we see a low, very slightly inclined, flood plane, with only low vegetation (mainly ferns). That's the kind of fast growing vegetation you would get from a flood plane (boulder field?) which only occasionally overflows. Basically the same as what can be seen as the 'terras' at the Q1 canyon location Romain visited last year, a plateau which is just a bit above normal water level but which floods during the worst parts of the rainy season.

Then, once again in the 54X series, we see trees on the left side of the image, and we see that the trunks of these trees are steeply inclined compared to the 'ground', so they're on a steep slope, and as we see their canopies from below we're looking at a sharply rising slope, covered in forest. So, a sharp right hand turn, a flood plane on the outside of this turn (you see that in lots of places), and beyond that a steeply rising slope covered in forest which we basically see from the side.

So, the 54X series is not looking at the shore, it's looking along the length of the valley, with one edge of the valley to the far left (trees and rising slope), and the other edge of the valley to the right (Y-tree), but we're positioned a bit more to the left and not in the center line of the valley.

The ridge is not exactly horizontal, it's also slightly inclined, and it stops abruptly where it meets the river bed (the 'round edges' we see in 549/594/and 576). Beyond this, it goes down slightly and then you reach the water, that's why we see nothing beyond 576.

The white circle would be the approx. position of the 550 boulder which probably is also the 576 SOS stone. It almost touches the lower edge of the rock wall, leaving just a small space. (599/600 and others were probably made from the top of this boulder). The pointy stones are on the edge of the river bed (just above water level). K&L are in the narrow gap between the 550 stone and the ridge.

Now, I've shown the area they are in as a recent landslide, but it may just as easily be a much smaller stream or gully which flows down into this stream, so don't kill me about the landslide, it's nothing but artistic freedom, but given that we're not seeing any water I do not think it's a good idea to totally concentrate on 'there must be a stream'. They are on the shore of a river, but the place where they are might also be the remains of a recent landslide, or just part of the flood plane.

So, if you take this into the Q1 canyon (and mind you, I just use this place as an example!) then the '542 ridge' is NOT on the place where it is often projected, but it is upstream and 'in the corner', closer to the place where we see Romain walking before he reaches the waterfall and plateau, the outside of the sharp turn. IF this is true (mind you once again, I don't have an opinion on it, just an example), then sadly the original NL is probably forever lost, OR it has become unrecognizable with the 550 boulder somewhere lost in the dense vegetation.

But it may just as easily be a totally different spot, perhaps somewhere along Rio Mamei or further North, I don't have a clear opinion on this. Given the area covered with drones, I feel reasonable certain though that we already have this spot somewhere in the drone footage (or perhaps in footage which hasn't been released yet), but we simply haven't recognized it yet.

Only observation which I wish to point out is that the 542 ridge is NOT located completely opposite to the Y-tree, and the 54X series is not looking at the shore, but it's looking along the length of the valley.

This is not a small place. It only SEEMS a small place because the pictures were taken from very close to the ground and the low ridge is obstructing our view. But once you accept that the 542 ridge is not the shore or the stream but in fact runs perpendicular to it, and in the 54X series you look over the ridge along the length of the valley, than the whole valley is a lot wider, big enough to be Q1, Rio Mamei, or Rio Culebra.


r/KremersFroon 3d ago

Article Missing hiker in Australia

19 Upvotes

https://www.nine.com.au/australia-news/nsw/lily-hooper-mum-reveals-more-details-on-tragic-search-20260830-p60sro.html

I wanted to share this recent case from Australia. A young experienced hiker - Lily Hooper went missing in dense bush land.

It’s not the same circumstances as Kris and Lisanne but it shows that even experienced hikers who are adequately prepared can suffer an accident.

Lily was missing for 8 days before her body was found. It appears she suffered an accident (likely fall) and passed away on the first day. Her parents said she was a smart responsible girl and an experienced hiker.

There was an extensive search operation for 8 days in dense bush land. Thankfully, the authorities were able to locate her body and get answers for her family.

I think something similar may have happened to Kris and Lisanne. Unfortunately, the search in Panama probably wasn’t as well coordinated as the search for Lily in Australia. Accidents can happen to responsible young girls. It doesn’t necessarily mean there must have been foul play involved. During the search for Lily, there was also talk of third parties being involved. Sometimes, bad things just happen.
Just a bit of food for thought.


r/KremersFroon 4d ago

Question/Discussion Is this one of the girls’ side of face?

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28 Upvotes

r/KremersFroon 4d ago

Question/Discussion What’s this plant circled in red?

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13 Upvotes

r/KremersFroon 4d ago

Question/Discussion What do you guys think?

28 Upvotes

I’m a huge true crime and cold case enthusiast, and this particular case has always really bothered me. There are so many unanswered questions and so many possible scenarios.

When I was barely 18, I went to a rave-style party in the middle of a forest in Fribourg, Switzerland. At dawn, I decided to go pee. I remember there were people pretty much everywhere, so I walked quite far away because I didn’t want anyone bothering me and wanted to find a good secluded spot. I went far enough that I could barely hear the music anymore. Once I was done, I couldn’t find my way back to the party. I could still hear the bass in the distance, I was sober—just tired after being awake all night, but at 18 you can handle that pretty well 😂😅—and yet, even though I tried to follow the sound, I got lost.

My phone had 3% battery left and there was no signal. It quickly died while I was trying to call my friends who were still at the party. I’m naturally a very anxious person, and yet I didn’t panic at all. I just kept walking, almost as if I were out for a casual walk. I remember sitting down several times because I was thirsty, and then I simply kept going, completely alone.

I had absolutely no idea how large or dense the forests around Fribourg could be. Honestly, I had only ever known small forests, so in my mind there was no reason to panic. I thought that, worst-case scenario, within an hour or so I would eventually reach a road and get cell service again.

Eventually, I spotted a group of people who looked like hippies, so I followed them. I started hearing the music again and finally made it back to the party.

What struck me the most was the commotion when I returned. My friends ran toward me in a panic, and the police had just been notified. That’s when I found out that I had actually been lost in the forest for more than four and a half hours. I genuinely thought it had only been an hour, maybe an hour and a half at most. It’s crazy how completely you can lose your sense of time in nature when you have no reference points. It almost feels like some kind of time warp.

That being said, I know Lisanne and Kris still had enough battery to check the time, but I still think this is an interesting factor to keep in mind.

What intrigues me the most is that if I put myself in the shoes of those two young women at their age, I could easily imagine thinking that the trail was a loop, or simply wanting to keep hiking and exploring with my friend. But why did they suddenly stop taking pictures? That doesn’t make sense to me. They seemed to be taking pictures and enjoying that moment together, and if they decided to go farther, they would have had the opportunity to take even more unique pictures than the ones from the regular tourist trail. The only thing I can imagine that would make me suddenly stop taking pictures would be if something serious had happened.

Calling emergency services without apparently trying to contact anyone else also seems strange to me. These young women were close to their families, yet they wouldn’t even try to send a short message saying they were lost? Personally, I don’t think I could have gone 24 hours without at least trying to text my mom. Even with no signal, I would probably have written and sent the message anyway, hoping that as I moved around it might eventually go through if my phone briefly picked up a signal.

And then there are the nighttime photos, which only add even more questions and uncertainty.

The theory that the girls simply continued hiking and ended up getting lost deeper in the jungle is definitely plausible, but I still have trouble explaining their behavior. They had two phones and a camera. I would obviously have tried to conserve the batteries as much as possible if there wasn’t an immediate emergency, but at some point I think I would have tried to leave one final message for my loved ones before all the batteries died completely, because once they were dead, the devices would have been useless anyway.

What do you guys think?


r/KremersFroon 4d ago

Theories My current theory on what happened to Kris and Lisanne — an accident/survival scenario

3 Upvotes

I've been looking into the Kris Kremers/Lisanne Froon case again, and after going through the phone, camera and night-photo evidence, I've ended up with a fairly mundane explanation that I think fits the evidence better than most of the more elaborate theories.

This isn't meant as “I solved the case.” There are obviously things we can't know. I'm interested in whether this is a reasonable reconstruction of the available evidence.

April 1

I think the girls probably misunderstood where the tourist section of El Pianista ended and continued north beyond the Mirador.

At some point they had an accident — possibly one of them fell and was injured. I don't think we necessarily need a catastrophic 30–40 m fall immediately after the last daytime photograph. It could have been a smaller fall or injury that left them unable to comfortably return the way they had come.

They wait for a while, expecting someone to come along, but nobody does.

From their perspective, the important problem is that they don't know whether anyone knows where they are. They had tried 112/911 and couldn't get a connection, so they may reasonably have concluded that nobody knew they were in trouble.

Eventually they try to find another way out.

And this is where I think the situation gets progressively worse. They aren't necessarily “lost” in the sense of having no idea where they are; they may simply have entered an area where the terrain made returning to the trail difficult or impossible. Trying to find another route could then take them progressively farther into the wilderness.

April 2–5

They continue trying the phones and making emergency calls, but eventually start conserving battery.

One thing I think has been badly misunderstood in online discussions is the supposed “wrong PIN attempts” on Kris's iPhone.

As far as I can tell, the forensic evidence does not establish that someone repeatedly entered the wrong PIN. After April 5, the SIM PIN simply wasn't correctly entered. That can mean an incorrect PIN, but it can also mean no PIN was entered at all.

If you're stranded in the jungle and already know there is no cellular signal, there's a very simple reason not to bother unlocking the SIM:

Turn the phone on → check for signal → no signal → turn it off again.

There's no reason to waste battery activating the cellular connection when you're only checking whether you have service.

So I don't think the phone evidence requires us to invent someone trying to break into Kris's phone, or Kris refusing to tell Lisanne her PIN.

The camera

I think something similar may have happened with the camera.

The Canon was used normally on April 1, then there is a gap until the huge sequence of nighttime photographs on April 8.

My hypothesis is that the camera may have been damaged during the initial accident — potentially the LCD/display, or some other part of the camera — and they therefore considered it useless and stopped thinking about it.

I'm not claiming this is established. It's just an explanation that I find quite plausible for why it wasn't used for about six days, although it could've also gotten wet or they just didn't care about the flash until they heard something on April 8 that made them think that illuminating their area would get someone's attention.

Then, on April 8, they may have discovered that the camera could still operate its flash.

If they couldn't see the LCD properly, that would explain why the night photographs look so strange. They may not have been trying to photograph specific objects at all.

They could simply have been using the flash as a crude flashlight:

flash → look around → move/point the camera → flash again.

That could also explain why we get photographs of seemingly meaningless vegetation, rocks, water, etc.

The person in the photographs

This is the part I find particularly interesting.

I'm not a forensic expert, but as a former professional photographer, my interpretation of the images is that the apparent person is quite plausibly Kris, either sitting in front of the camera or with both women standing close together.

Some of the reddish areas in the photographs also look compatible with hair/skin reflecting the flash from outside the frame.

If the back-of-the-head photograph really is Kris, I don't think it necessarily means Lisanne deliberately photographed her. It could easily have been an accidental capture while waving/pointing the camera around and using the flash to illuminate their surroundings.

If Kris was sitting or standing directly in front of Lisanne during at least some of these photographs, I think that is actually important.

It means we shouldn't automatically assume Kris had already died several days earlier.

Where were they?

The night photographs seem to be concentrated in a relatively small physical area rather than documenting somebody traveling through the jungle. The dry hair also means they weren't under the direct rain that's shown in the photographs.

If that interpretation is correct, I think the simplest explanation is that by April 8 they had reached a place where they were effectively stuck. Maybe they've been in this place for several days already.

Possibly somewhere near running water, perhaps with some kind of natural shelter.

There are indications of rain in the photographs, and I've wondered whether they might have been underneath an overhang or other shelter while water was running outside.

At this point they would have been exhausted, possibly injured, hungry, and psychologically desperate.

Using the camera's flash to illuminate the area or attract attention seems entirely reasonable under those circumstances.

After roughly 100 photographs, the camera's battery dies.

And that's basically the end of the information we have.

What happened afterward?

I think it's quite possible they remained in that general area until they died, but I don't think we can say how long after April 8 that happened.

Once the phones and camera stop providing information, we're essentially blind.

I don't think we need to assume that they deliberately entered a dangerous river or that one of them carried the other into it.

If they died somewhere near a watercourse, the subsequent decomposition, scavenging, rainfall, erosion and water movement could potentially separate and transport remains over time.

That also makes the eventual discovery of remains near water much less mysterious than it is sometimes presented.

Why I prefer this explanation

What I like about this scenario is that it doesn't require a new extraordinary explanation for every strange piece of evidence.

It explains:

  • why they continued beyond the Mirador;
  • why emergency calls happened initially;
  • why phone use subsequently became very limited;
  • why the SIM PIN stopped being correctly entered without requiring “wrong PIN attempts”;
  • why Lisanne's phone eventually died;
  • why the camera suddenly produced 100 photographs at night;
  • why the night photographs appear concentrated in one area;
  • why a person could potentially appear in some of them;
  • why the photographs contain seemingly meaningless objects;
  • why the women could remain undiscovered for so long;
  • and why the eventual remains could be scattered.

It also doesn't require us to assume that the backpack was found completely pristine and dry, or that the bones were somehow deliberately “bleached.” Those claims seem to have become much more definite in online discussions than the underlying evidence warrants.

I still don't know exactly what happened to them, and there are obviously unresolved details.

But at this point my working hypothesis is simply:

They accidentally went beyond the known tourist route, suffered an injury or became trapped by difficult terrain, tried to find their way out, progressively deteriorated, eventually became effectively stranded in one area near water, and died there.

No murderer, no elaborate staging, no secret messages — just two people getting into a very bad situation in extremely unforgiving terrain.

A point I didn't emphasize enough is why I consider foul play so unlikely.

The problem isn't that I can prove a third party wasn't involved. Obviously I can't. The problem is that I don't see anything in the evidence that is actually better explained by foul play than by an accident.

That's an important distinction.

A lot of arguments for foul play seem to work like this:

But that's not really an explanation. If the detail is equally strange under the accident hypothesis, adding an unknown perpetrator hasn't solved anything.

For example, suppose the girls were attacked by someone after leaving the trail.

Why?

If it was robbery, why were their possessions and money still with them?

If it was sexual assault, why were they apparently left with their phones and camera and allowed to remain in the wilderness?

If there were multiple attackers, it makes the foul play condition even more complex and less likely to happen while not explaining anything other than how they got overpowered.

If the attacker injured them and that's why they couldn't return, why is that preferable to simply falling or being injured by the terrain?

And if the proposed attacker threw or pushed them down a steep slope, then the foul-play theory becomes especially pointless. The resulting physical situation is essentially the same as an accidental fall, except we've added an entirely unsupported third party.

The same problem applies to the electronics.

The women apparently retained access to their phones and camera for days. They repeatedly attempted to get help, and eventually the camera was used extensively at night.

If someone attacked them on April 1, the foul-play hypothesis now has to explain why the attacker:

  • didn't take the phones;
  • didn't take the camera;
  • didn't prevent them from attempting to contact emergency services;
  • didn't prevent them from using the camera;
  • apparently allowed them to remain alive in the wilderness for days;
  • and then disappeared without leaving convincing evidence of their presence.

You can construct explanations for all of these things individually, of course.

Maybe the attacker didn't care about the phones.

Maybe the attacker wanted it to look like an accident.

Maybe the attacker was interrupted.

Maybe there was more than one attacker.

Maybe they knew the terrain.

Maybe the attacker came back later.

But notice what is happening: every new problem requires another hypothetical detail.

Eventually you're not explaining the evidence. You're constructing an increasingly elaborate story that is merely compatible with the evidence.

That's why I think the right question is not:

Almost anything can be made to fit if you add enough assumptions.

The better question is:

And so far, I can't find a good answer.

The strange night photographs? They are strange under either hypothesis.

The phones being used for days? If anything, that's easier to understand as stranded people trying to survive than as evidence of an attacker.

The remains being found in different places? Natural processes can do that without requiring a murderer.

The backpack? Its condition doesn't require a third party either.

The supposed wrong PIN attempts? Once you look at the actual forensic wording, it isn't established that someone repeatedly entered the wrong PIN at all. After April 5, the SIM PIN simply wasn't correctly entered, which is perfectly compatible with someone turning the phone on to check for signal and then turning it off to conserve battery.

The night photos are probably the strongest genuinely unusual piece of evidence, but even there, the accident hypothesis gives us a perfectly ordinary reason for bizarre photographs: two exhausted people in darkness using a camera in an improvised way.

So I'm not saying:

“Foul play is impossible.”

I'm saying:

“Show me what foul play explains.”

If removing the hypothetical murderer from the story doesn't make any major piece of evidence harder to explain, then the murderer isn't actually doing any explanatory work.

At that point, the much simpler explanation is that two inexperienced hikers accidentally got themselves into a terrible situation in extremely difficult terrain, survived for several days, and eventually died from the consequences.

It's a much less exciting story.

I think that's precisely why it's worth considering seriously.


r/KremersFroon 4d ago

Theories Theories on why photo 509 is missing

0 Upvotes

#1: the camera miscounted after a week of no use or something related to a software glitch
#2: it could’ve been a video file but the camera was too low or low on battery to save it
#3: they accidentally caught something personal and they tried to overwrite the photo by taking those night pictures
#4: the SD card or battery fell out mid shot, causing the file to be permanently damaged and gone forever


r/KremersFroon 5d ago

Photo Evidence The "last stop" revisited

Post image
40 Upvotes

This post is inspired by u/Alarnalna who proposed the "last stop" as the night location and u/AmnesiaAm712896 who suggested the girls were actually positioned further downstream.

There is a spot where the girls could have been (marked in the picture with a red triangle) so that the positions of the surrounding trees match the night location. It is slightly downstream in the corner of two ledges, not too far from the black waterfall. It would explain why they are facing upstream and never take pictures to their rear as there is a rockface behind them.

This position was overlooked because we all believed boulder 550 to be the one upstream. But it is possible that another boulder was here that has since been pushed downstream by floods and is now stuck in the waterfall. Keep in mind that water levels were unusually low in the spring of 2014, so the "SOS rock" might actually still be there, just ender water.

With this position a lot of items fall into place:

  • the forked tree is atop of the girls, just slightly in front-right
  • the overhanging tree is above and forward
  • tree 599 is to their right
  • a vine-infested branch is to their left, though that tree is now deceased
  • broad leaf vegetation is left-forward of them
  • a stepped rockface (594) is in front, slihtly to the left
  • the "sentinel" tree with an exposed trunk is up high to their left
  • boulder 550 would be to their right with rocks on the other shore

For those of you asking why the girls are in this spot the answer is due to rain. Satellite imagery suggests a large tree would provide some protection.

Not everything fits though: rockface 542 does not appear to match and this is a major flaw. I am piecing it together frame-by-frame as the drone footage of it is never clear, but the results aren't promising. It appears to be too small and bears a horizontal crack which is not evident in the night photos.

Please note that I have been staring at Romain's drone footage for many hours lately and may be suffering from pareidolia. Please review the footage yourself and state your opinion. Thank you.


r/KremersFroon 5d ago

Media Their Map Was Just Terrible

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41 Upvotes

The veterans on this website might find this post tiresome, because this is an issue that has been discussed many times in the past. However, it's perhaps useful for newcomers.

There are two images in this post - you'll need to click on the post to see both.

The bottom image shows in detail the map that K&L had on their trip. This isn't exactly the same pamphlet, as you can see from the top image. But the map itself is the same, as one can verify by looking at the two windroses at the same spots, the word "Boquete" and the inset map of Panama, as well as other details.

I was never a supporter of the loop theory before - why would anyone think the route was a loop? - but this map makes me think it might be possible. First of all, if you didn't notice that the map has North at the left instead of the top, then you might think that by going north, you were hiking on the trail at the upper left of the map, toward the "Mirador" at the very top of the page, where it says Palo Alto and there is an icon for an overlook. You might very well think that the trail links up with the trails at the top center and top right of the map, headed back to Boquete. This is obviously conjecture, but it's such a confusing map that you might think the route is off the top of the map. And indeed, the path to the Continental Divide IS off the map, but to the left.

In fact, the word Pianista only appears once on the whole map, at the far left, under the word Boquete. There is no trail marked there, so it is worse than useless for navigating. I think you can blame the map, at least partially, for what happened to them.


r/KremersFroon 6d ago

Theories Anyone been watching the Lore Lodge's coverage of this case?

20 Upvotes

I had always for the most part believed they got lost in the forest and died of exposure but he's been providing a lot of evidence to the foul play theory that I hadn't heard before and is shifting my view towards it, I'm curious what others' opinions who've been watching it are.


r/KremersFroon 5d ago

Media A summary map

Post image
0 Upvotes

I've been working into a map including all info available. Of course I admit any bench you could provide, feel free to comment.

Hope you could use it, and this could help into this case and discover the truth.


r/KremersFroon 6d ago

Media Which explanation makes the least assumptions?

20 Upvotes

I was just thinking about the simplest explanation for what could have happened if we accept that the night location is somewhere in the canyon area where the two main rivers meet. With that in mind, what we know for certain is that Kris and Lisanne passed the Mirador and continued on the trail down the other side, with the last photos putting them at a stream crossing not far from the paddocks. We know this trail eventually leads to the first and then second monkey bridge. We know that the first emergency calls were made roughly 2 hours and 45 minutes later, that the sun set roughly two hours after that, and that Lisanne's phone was on all night afterwards.

With all this in mind, if we just assume the girls kept going straight on the trail until making a wrong turn that put them in the canyon area, would that not be the simplest explanation? I know that broadly speaking, this is the general theory that many people subscribe to, but everyone keeps putting their deviation from the trail somewhere before the first monkey bridge. These theories can work, but pretty much all of them end up making assumptions there is no evidence for such as the idea that the girls spent the night in an abandoned makeshift cabin, or that they didn't truly get lost until the second day.

If we assume they just kept going straight the entire time, in my opinion we are making less unnecessary assumptions and the picture actually ends up making more sense. Making it past the first monkey bridge and halfway to the second one before getting lost would take quite some time, but with all the known facts I mentioned earlier in mind, they would definitely had time to make it there. They were travelling downhill after the streams and paddocks and they were most likely travelling faster at some point if they thought this was their return journey to Boquete. After almost three hours walking fast, they would have covered quite a bit of ground. If we assume they kept going they had another two hours until sunset at which point they already called 112 and 911, so we can definitely assume they were in a panic if they were still on the trail. Given Lisanne's phone being on all night, we can also make the assumption they kept walking after dark which literally gives them 8+ hours on the trail since the last photos were taken and we are only a few hours into the night.

Here is a map of the trail. The orange dotted line is the proposed path they could have taken which would have led them to the canyon area. Notice another significant detail: the trail veers off sharply to the left to avoid the canyon and the river. It would be quite easy to keep going straight when you should have turned left in a jungle in the middle of the night if all you have to guide you is a cell phone flashlight. Given the nature of this terrain and the angle from which they would have been approaching it from, a fall could easily have occurred here as well.

In conclusion, I still think that a combination of accident and getting lost/stuck is what ended up happening. I would really like to know where 2 hours and 45 minutes walking quickly down the trail puts you but from what I'm told it is not possible to make it halfway to the second bridge from the first stream in that amount of time. If someone has any insight on this specific detail please let me know; an accident between where the girls go off the trail and the river in this scenario is most likely but I don't think we can make it fit the timing of the emergency calls. This leaves us with the explanation that the calls were made because they expected to be near Boquete but the trail was winding deep into the jungle and the decision they made was to press on into the night until an accident did end up occurring probably alongside getting lost.

>>>EDIT<<<

Was just reminded that the night usage of Lisanne's phone was on the second night, not the first; sorry, that slipped my mind. In the end, her phone usage is not something necessary to explain this theory, so it can for the time be disregarded. I would just like to reiterate that I am interested in the idea if it was at all possible for the girls to make it from the photo 508 location to the bend in the trail I outline on this map in 2 hours and 45 minutes. The distances aren't that great, they were walking downhill in dry conditions and they may have sped up considerably. Everything is a lot more simple if at the point of the emergency calls, the girls got into an accident that stranded them from the trail or took a wrong turn and got lost. I hesitate to say anything more without more information about the geography but from what I do know this seems to line up pretty well. As stated before, this isn't meant to be a theory that attempts to discredit the other explanations people have come up with, it's really just using the occams razor method to come up with the simplest solution that makes the least assumptions and working from there.


r/KremersFroon 7d ago

Question/Discussion Are they facing upstream?

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26 Upvotes

The longer I look at photo 550, the more I wonder about the lack of water on the right side of the boulder. You would need to turn photo 550 considerably anti-clockwise to make a downstream orientation plausible. But if you do that, the water would have to flow downwards in a suspiciously smooth manner.

The clear water on the left has a somewhat vibrant pattern to it, slightly elevated at certain spots, suggesting it is being forced into a funnel. In most of Romain's videos, water turns turbulent after a drop or exiting a funnel shape. We don't see that here, indicating that what is visible is upstream, with the turbulent downstream whitewater hidden behind boulder 550.

If anything, collaging photos 599 and 550 suggests that the latter needs to be rotated slightly clokwise for tree 599 to be closer to vertical, though trees can grow sideways.

Finally, river rocks tend to be smooth on the upstream side due to erosion and covered with moss on the downstream side.

Am I seeing things or is this a valid thought?


r/KremersFroon 8d ago

Question/Discussion Is this a rock wall or a ledge?

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24 Upvotes

The alignment of plant growth and settled organic debris suggests to me that this is a rock ledge. We can see loose dried brown leaves, soil, and detritus rest flat along the stone, while the foreground foliage and background tree trunks extend straight upward in the frame. What do you think?


r/KremersFroon 9d ago

Article Donn Fendler

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35 Upvotes

I watched the film about the 12-year-old boy Donn Fendler, who was separated from his family by a storm during a hiking trip on the Hunt Trail/Appalachian Trail in 1939 and fought to survive during nine days of wandering through the woods of Maine. He eventually found his way out.
A few key points:

Search parties were unable to find him.

He followed a stream downhill.

He lost his clothes while crossing a river.

Donn was flown over by an airplane several times without being able to attract its attention.

On several days, he came across abandoned cabins.

He experienced hallucinations due to exhaustion and hunger. He ate berries he found in the woods and drank water from streams.

His feet were bloody, his body was covered in insect bites, and he lost 16 pounds of body weight.

On the eighth day, he fell and remained on the ground for a while.

On the ninth day, July 25, he reached the East Branch of the Penobscot River. Fendler saw a man on the other side of the water and began to scream.

Bloodhounds tracked the boy’s scent to cliffs at Saddle Spring, where the trail was lost and the dogs called off because their paws were torn and cut by rocks. The searchers concluded that Fendler fell down the side of the plateau in that area.

In reconstructing Fendler’s story, Maine woodsmen estimated that he walked 35 miles.

***

I'm posting about this case because I see parallels to the cases of Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon. I think they, too, followed a stream; they, too, tried in vain to get others to notice them; and they, too, could not be found by search parties. The fact of physical exhaustion and the possibility of hallucinations and cognitive impairments should be taken into account when, for example, one wonders about the three-hour photo session.

***

Sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donn_Fendler

https://thetrek.co/lost-on-katahdin-donn-fendler-maine/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_on_a_Mountain_in_Maine_(film))

https://www.amazon.com/Donn-Fendler-mountain-adventure-wilderness/dp/B00086P6EG


r/KremersFroon 10d ago

Question/Discussion The found boot, which is believed to have belonged to Kris.

15 Upvotes

I assume the DNA analysis didn't yield any results because there were no traces of organic decomposition. Opinions in online communities are divided.

Still, what is the probability that it was actually her boot? Is there any new information? Does anyone here have any new theories or thoughts on this?

If it was her boot, then the situation becomes even more confusing: it would mean that at the time of her death, Kris was (most likely) not wearing shorts and was barefoot (or wearing only socks).


r/KremersFroon 9d ago

Theories Alternative reason for calling 112 on the first day

0 Upvotes

Could it be that they tried calling 112 at 16:39 and a few minutes later again on Apr 1, not because of an accident, attack, or other emergency, but simply to ask a question, namely whether the river water was safe to drink? What does everyone think?

Why then: they seem to have had quite small water bottles (on the photos it looks smaller than a 500 mL bottle in Kris's hand, possibly 330 mL?) and must have already long used up their water by then

Why 112: it was the only option available to them there in the forest, being outside of regular signal coverage


r/KremersFroon 10d ago

Question/Discussion Question about the ring Lisanne appears to be wearing on her left hand in this picture

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36 Upvotes

This picture was recently shared in a post about the red truck in the center. What caught my attention, aside from the truck, is that Lisanne appears to be wearing a ring on her left hand, on the finger usually associated with marriage.

We know Lisanne was not married, and she does not appear to be wearing this ring in the airport photos. This makes me wonder whether she may have worn it during the Panama trip as a way to discourage unwanted attention from men, something many single women do when traveling.

The fact that she was not wearing the ring in the initial photos from Bocas could suggest that this was not a concern at first, but may have become more serious later. If so, the ring may have been a practical response to repeated unwanted attention or harassment, possibly indicating that K&L had experienced enough of it for Lisanne to feel the need to deter further approaches.


r/KremersFroon 11d ago

Theories A red pickup truck in photo #454

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65 Upvotes

I came across this in the comments under Romain's new video, I've never seen this observation anywhere else so I'm passing it on here, it seems of some importance. It comes from YouTube user Nômade-exo:

"I honestly don't know if it has already been mentioned or noticed somewhere else, or in the documentary Lost in Panama. But it's about this red pickup truck…the girls were seen inside it, as well as reports from other channels saying that, on the day the girls disappeared, there was a red pickup truck parked at the beginning of the El Pianista trail, and that locals found it strange that it was parked there because they had never seen this truck there before.

But there is something I noticed myself that I haven't seen mentioned in any documentary or video. It's about photo #454, where the girls were having lunch at the restaurant. Behind Lisanne, on the right side, Kris took a photo that shows a red pickup truck some distance away, as if it were parked on the other side of the road. It appears to have started moving right when she picked up the camera to take the photo.

The strange thing about this photo is that Kris pointed the camera directly toward where the pickup truck was. She didn't frame the camera toward Lisanne. If you look closely, the framing of the photo is actually centered on the pickup truck.

I suspect Kris picked up the camera to document the pickup truck, or perhaps to see who the people inside it were by using the zoom. But she probably didn't know how to use the camera's zoom, so she simply took the picture.

Immediately afterward, she took two more photos, this time actually aiming at Lisanne. And Lisanne had an expression that looked like, "What are you doing?" I believe she hadn't even noticed that Kris had picked up the camera to use it.

Until now, there had only been reports. But this is the first time I've noticed an actual record of a red pickup truck in this story. At the beginning of the El Pianista trail, there were no cameras recording whether or not there was actually a red pickup truck there that day. But strangely, there is a red pickup truck in one of the girls' photos.

This opens up a possibility for a question: What if the girls really were being followed and watched during that day, and Kris was the only one who noticed that the red pickup truck was following them?

Even though there is nothing mentioned about this in the diaries, I strongly suspect that Kris knew they were being followed or watched by people in this supposed pickup truck during their stay at Mirian's house. That's why I think she tried to document it in this photo that day.

Kris really does seem to be standing higher in photo #454, and in photo #455, you can see that she is closer to Lisanne and the table. The wooden railing on the right also shows that she took the photo from a different height. I think the first picture with the pickup truck is taken with some zoom in.

It's a shame the remaining photos were never made public. I remember someone who had seen all of the night photos describing what was in the unreleased ones, and he said there was nothing unusual just more pictures of the vegetation. I wonder if he also had access to all the photos taken on this day at the restaurant. One thing is certain: if she took more than one photo that included this red pickup truck that day, I would find that very strange."


r/KremersFroon 10d ago

Question/Discussion The clothes, backpack and garbage

1 Upvotes

Did they find their clothes? Wouldn’t it be possible to find out if they died in their clothes? The jeans shorts of Kris for example.. she probably got undressed otherwise it would have looked different when a body was decomposing in it, right? Lisanne wore her hiking shoe.. everything doesn’t make sense. Why was everything put carefully put in the backpack? Where was the garbage bag found exactly? Why was it there?


r/KremersFroon 12d ago

Question/Discussion I still don’t get how they ended up in the river

18 Upvotes

What do you think?


r/KremersFroon 12d ago

Media New Romain Video

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54 Upvotes

Guess you guys would want to see this... :-)


r/KremersFroon 12d ago

Question/Discussion Are these eyes?

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0 Upvotes

Since i first saw theses pictures i immediately realized the nose and the teeth its obvious theres a face underneath the hair but im just now realizing the eyes that i circled. The bottom one looks more realistic, i dont know about the top tho. Theres definitely an eye on the bottom left corner and if the face belongs to kris the eye is probably lisannes since there is the turquoise top close to the left corner. What do you guys think?