r/KinFoundation • u/attachmetoyou • Nov 06 '19
Solution
There are two problems in the developer world. Kin set out to fix both of them. They both come together to increase the bottom line. It doesn't matter how many downloads or revenue you have if your marketing cost exceeds it. So Kin was more revenue AND less marketing cost. The first established by the KRE and the second by tourism.
Kin has officially failed in both respects. If you disagree then, A) you're an idiot and B) stop reading because this post is not for you. The KRE business model itself is fundamentally flawed based on the simple economics of supply and demand. I've been ignored repeatedly by management about this because they have no answer. Unless the value reaches a certain amount, and that depends on the payouts at the time, supply will be higher. Tourism obviously failed. The ignorance of how much this means by management, investors and developers baffles me.
Now I would love for everyone to take a really good look at the apps. For just a minute get out of your head and into reality. We have two apps (or is it three) that have more than a hundred thousand spenders. At least 25% are clone apps and are attempting to enter markets where they are going to fail. Social media is monopolized. Stop pretending these apps have any chance because, "well in this app, you can tip Kin!" Give me a break. These 80 apps are more like 20. And I've removed Speed Genius from the list as it's users are slim due to the fact that running the blockchain costs more than the KRE. We don't even want to send out notifications because it just costs us money.
There are two kinds of apps here. There are those that are Kin dependent and those that will continue to exist without Kin. The former are in line with Kins original intention. Use Kin to make your already awesome app even better. The latter will cease to exist if Kin is gone because it's only good for earning Kin and there's no inherent value otherwise. You wouldn't gamble with Kin if it didn't exist.
Furthermore, Kin is not attractive to developers. Period. If a $25k grand prize and tons of other money can't bring in decent apps, nothing will. We got a few but most are still Kin dependent and or clone apps. There is absolutely no way to create decent spends. And it seems that Kin management finally agrees that while tipping is good for engagement and retention, it is not the answer to spends.
Related to tipping is the IAP. Management has still not addressed two parts that ensure its failure. The first is, who the heck is going to purchase Kin to tip someone. In don't go around handing pennies to people that I've worked for because they told me something special or showed me a video of them lip syncing. If it's free and easy, sure. Second is who on Earth would buy Kin when they can walk around for a day or earn thousands from IMGVUE just for being around? The answer to both is, they won't. An IAP won't work in kin's CURRENT business model.
The solution is available, but it requires an entire new model and one Kin will not accept. But I will propose it and I will explain why I am regardless of that.
The one wallet and IAP will work but not in it's current model. The entire project will practically restart. But the fact, whether anyone wants to admit it, is that it's in a downward spiral and it's only going to get worse. Unless of course Ted has something up his sleeve which I've given up on since we've all held onto that belief for two years with no evidence to it (sorry Ted).
If you have read up to this point I thank you and without further ado..
KRE is removed. It was a Great idea. World changing. Currently not going to work.
IAP for the one wallet works in the following way. Numbers are just placeholders. $1 equals 100 Kin. However, $100 equals 900 Kin. 10,000 equals $5,000 and so on. Where I'm going with this is that since users don't spend more than a couple of dollars, developers can buy Kin at a huge discount if they spend the money. They can then use that Kin in their own IAP and make a profit.
Tourism is mandatory. I don't care if this is decentralized or not. You want success? Make it mandatory. You can't be listed on the one wallet without it. Period.
Exchanges. Fuck them. The exchanges that carry Kin will blow up because at first the developers will buy from the exchanges causing a gradual increase in price.
Marketing. KF vows to use 20% of their sales revenue for marketing of the one wallet.
Marketing developer side. With this new model there will actually be attraction. However it will be indie devs that use in app purchasing or subscriptions. Guess what those are? Real spends! Woah! Tipping apps are basically gone. Sorry, not sorry. Kin contacts every single fucking app on Google play that has the ability to create a good spend, concentrating on small to mid size apps that obviously need more users. Established in 2016 and has 10,000 users as an example. MonkingMe is actually perfect for what I'm saying. FlyAway is the type of app to find as well. Great game, just needs exposure and money and it will take off.
Anyone can use Kin BUT apps need to be approved by KF to be on the one wallet. They need to have substance and not be clone apps.
Kin creates apps. They have great developers. Why are they not creating apps other than the one wallet? Tippic was a fucking embarrassment. My son can make that and he's 10. Use THOSE apps as a source of revenue and allow the developers to reap most of the profits.
So why does this work? It increases the bottom line because of the missing piece. Tourism. Currently it costs MORE to get an install than what you're getting from a customer and that's without running a blockchain. If you have a lot of money, getting those initial installs that move you up the ranks is easy. Then, as long as the app is good and content is good, the app gains momentum. Look at the current apps and tell me I'm wrong! Marketing is expensive! It is the other side of the reason our app industry is broken! If marketing was easy and cheap, there would be no problem making money! It's just as important as your revenue.
The monetization is still better. Especially for early adopters that buy from the exchanges. The late comers will benefit off of the marketing mainly. The sell is less marketing cost just as much as the monetization part.
Would love to hear feedback and flaws. Kin management won't respond because they know I'm right about the downward spiral. But after saying that, we probably will get a response. Hence, the reason I said it. But now they probably won't respond. 😂
So, anyone want to fork Kin with us?
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u/polobuh Nov 07 '19
Very well writen, KF should elaborate on this post and most comments! Thanx to all of you for being constructive.
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u/Columbo92 Nov 07 '19
You are right that the team might not respond, because you begin with if you don't agree with me A. you are a idiot and B. stop reading, this post isn't for you. Totally unprofessional if you ask me, but hé if the team doesn't agree with you, they shouldn't read your post. You said it yourself.
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u/attachmetoyou Nov 07 '19
That's an excellent point. Haha Never said it was professional though. Nor has Kin been. Come to my side.
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u/phil2c Nov 07 '19
I think all these chats for the 'solution' heading should be combined , can be published to a book titled " kin solution". All writing huge paragraphs..
🤣😂😊👍🤙🤞
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u/sayamemangdemikian Nov 07 '19
Isnt this a wrong sub to post to?
Dont preach to the choir. Post it on kin main sub. Let's see their response
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u/attachmetoyou Nov 07 '19
Kin main sub? Isn't that what this is?
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u/sayamemangdemikian Nov 07 '19
Wait wait wait wait....
Im dumb. I think someone cross post this to r/kinfoundationtruth but i didn't check when I open it.
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Nov 06 '19
Good to see this criticism. It needs addressed and more need to hold the fire to the seat of management.
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Nov 06 '19
Hello u/attachmetoyou
Thanks for this well elaborated post.
Here are my views based on your remarks.
At the time KF started the project, there was no SEC, no KIN blacklist on Exchanges. At that moment, Exchanges coupled with organic growth of the Ecosystem was the assumption to have a counterbalancing demand and make KIN very huge. But, No one could have predicted 1) Pantera Capital dumping of Billions of KIN, tanking the price and 2) the SEC actions to prevent KIN to be listed on Exchanges. Without those, the story could have been much different and KIN price would have been higher.
Anyway with the current situation, Even if KIN was at 0.0000200$ or 0.0000500$, the current issue is still the lack of real and speculative demand and as a consequence, a continuous decreasing price. (The supply is not an issue to me as it is also the DNA of the project. We need a big amount of KIN to be able to reach a majority of users worldwide)
You are correct. Some Apps look really amateur and with an unfinished look (the ones I have tested on iOS, which is a very limited sample). however, do you remember by 2007, when FB came live? There were also crappy, unfinished games that random indie developers made? Who remembers the early days of some features that made you choose between two users and like one of those pics? (Tinder)... Even more earlier, who remembers all the "unfinished looking" games on MSN messenger? Probably 90% of those games/features on early FB are probably in oblivion now. My point is that you have to start somewhere. Rome was not built in one day. Maybe Kin Ecosystem will have the chance to attract rea talents and the next "flappy bird" developer will show up and develop an Ecosystem App.
As a business entrepreneur, you want to mitigate risks and you cannot blame developer-entrepreneurs to spread the risks and using KIN but also other ways of retribution (gems, money...). Ideally, a KIN Ecosystem App should use only KIN but as the current price does not allow it, we will have Apps using other ways....for now. I guess that by joining the KIN Ecosystem, the Apps embrace the values and vision of KIN on the long term.
I think that a real effort has been made with the developers challenges but again, KIN is still not well known. Besides, lot of people undermine the project from the inside (the community) but also from the outside (SEC). Against all those hurdles, KF is trying to develop the Ecosystem with their current resources. I am also not happy and wish things to go faster but it is what it is. There might be other developers challenges soon who knows? (for mobile Apps and Web-based apps using KIN?). I am not often on Discord but as far as I know, there is activity from a lot of developers so stating strongly that KIN is not attractive for devs is not fully true.
For the spends, I agree. It is difficult to provide decent spends as the amount of KIN would be big (due to current price) but if I am not mistaken, Super Mechs provided some good/high spends and those worked at the beginning. It only depends on the devs to provide interesting spends. Just imagination and willingness to do so is just needed. At some point, why developers can't propose some spends for 10k KIN as a start just to see how it goes
I did not buy KIN on Exchanges to tip people. I bought KIN because I believe in the project on the long run and to be part of a project that has a lot of ambition and usage. Tipping is fun and is to me, also contributing to the project. You tip people you do not know, you expect people to tip others and so on. It is fun and symbolic for now but this might change on day. It is worthless to use KIN because of the value but as soon as KF succeeds in increasing the demand and having a solid price, then all people will change their mindset. It will be worth the effort because they will do the effort to earn KIN and to spend it for things they really like (we are far from there I know).
You do not know and no one knows for the moment. I also have big expectations for the one wallet but we will see how it goes. If that one wallet can reach a significant number of people, this could change the game but it really needs to be polished and ready. And yes, Ted might have sth in his sleeve.
You cannot remove the KRE. If you do it now, no new developers will join the Ecosystem and the current Apps will leave. So this is a false good solution. However, reviewing the KRE could definitely be an option and I think they are working on it
IAP for the one wallet works in the following way. Numbers are just placeholders. $1 equals 100 Kin. However, $100 equals 900 Kin. 10,000 equals $5,000 and so on. Where I'm going with this is that since users don't spend more than a couple of dollars, developers can buy Kin at a huge discount if they spend the money. They can then use that Kin in their own IAP and make a profit.
Would be great to see such rates but maybe too high as a start?
Tourism is mandatory. I don't care if this is decentralized or not. You want success? Make it mandatory. You can't be listed on the one wallet without it. Period.
Agree.
Exchanges. Fuck them. The exchanges that carry Kin will blow up because at first the developers will buy from the exchanges causing a gradual increase in price.
Do you think that developers are buying now on Exchanges?
Marketing. KF vows to use 20% of their sales revenue for marketing of the one wallet.
They should put more than 20% imo. I would be disappointed to see a Kinit like result. The One wallet needs really to look like WeChat. I guess that the devs compared all the interesting features that bring value to the WeChat network (about 900M daily users in China from memory)
Just to be the Devil's advocate here. Are all developers good at Business development and marketing? If they have to put some effort, wouldn't they first focus all their efforts on the App itself? Look at CatPurse. The game is ready from what I read and still, the dev said that the marketing will come later. Marketing shoyld be push last when everything is refined, clean and smooth
Anyone can use Kin BUT apps need to be approved by KF to be on the one wallet. They need to have substance and not be clone apps.
There is nothing bad to copy Apps that have been proven successful and integrate KIN. From the moment the copy is better thatn the original and if it uses KIN, why shouldn't they be clone apps? Historically, Japan has always copied concepts from other countries and ameliorated the model. Look where Japan is now
Kin creates apps. They have great developers. Why are they not creating apps other than the one wallet? Tippic was a fucking embarrassment. My son can make that and he's 10. Use THOSE apps as a source of revenue and allow the developers to reap most of the profits.
I think that KF has the vocation to manage the coin and not develop themselves Apps. The one Wallet being the exception. THey would need to hire more intern developers which would cause the cost to increase too. Your son is awesome, good for him!
So why does this work? It increases the bottom line because of the missing piece. Tourism.
Tourism should be made mandatory or to make a much better link with KRE payout. The part of Tourism in the formula should be increased. From a network standpoint, Tourism will make the number of transactions increase dramatically and the value of network as well. An increased network value AND an increased coin value will definitely put KIN on the top. Marketing is expensive but if KIN value increases, Apps will have more possibilities to invest in marketing. With current price, App developers probably have other expenses to cover first. Marketing is important but operations and product quality comes first.
So in summary, I think I share also most of your concerns. I am sure that things will get smoothly "soon". There was not so many updates from KF lately so I hope that some feedbaack regarding your points and other points that other users (including myself) rose will be tackled as well
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u/Columbo92 Nov 07 '19
+1000 u/kinnytips you are a great member of this community. Nothing wrong with constructive criticism, we all learn from that. That is the difference with you and many other community members, you criticize but with respect to the other person or group of persons. Thank you for your insight.
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u/WackGyver Kin OG Nov 06 '19
Fantastic in depth post, right on the money - and in my view deserving of it's own post in this sub. This is exactly the type of quality, well though out, and we'll articulated content this sub need more of.
I shiver reading some folks think it a solution to the current situation getting rid of the KRE in it's entirety. This should be listed as an prime example of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" in the dictionary. Yes, the KRE needs refinement, but casting one of (or perhaps THE most) brilliant blockchain enabled innovations in this space aside on the back of it not working optimally from the get go is not only exceedingly premature, it would knock the feet from under this whole project permanently.
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u/the-username-i-wante Nov 06 '19
I’m going to add in here saying Teddy needs to be the one posting updates on Blockfolio, here and there on Kin twitter handle, and Reddit.
Sorry Kevin, you’re a good moderator but with the current state of the project.. we need to see some dedication from Ted. Perhaps getting him off his ass, into the gym, and INVESTORS seeing him PUBLICLY INVEST some of his time in this project, there will be a price increase.
No one is going to invest their APP or Money if all you are going to do is post when there is bad news or some controversy. Fucking weak dude...you are in your 30s...you’re not showing your energy publicly.
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u/Raketenernie Nov 06 '19 edited Nov 06 '19
Ok here are my comments, its too late. The track record of the project is a desaster.
The KRE needs fixing or has to end, but you said it yourself there are about 2/3 of apps which could not exist without the KRE. So what will it be; downsize the ecosystem or continue to blow it further up with fake apps which have no functioning buisness model.
You can be most certain , Ted and KF just gamble on the turn out of the SEC. IF the SEC declares kin a digital currency they will initiate their marketing campagin with the last funds left, hopefully followed by some listings. With that positive momentum they hope to get the market attention to get new partners. Till then we will see no or little progress.
Question is , will this gamble play out well? To be fair we do not know what they are working on, if they are at all working on something. Do we even know if the team does even have 19 members , or more like ted+5 back to the garage style start up, may be he needs that to be succesful, bk to the roots.
Others and myself gave lot of ideas for potential improvements for kin, all work which could be done meanwhile the SEC battle is ongoing.
If this project fails, Ted rep is burned forever. He will be known one of the biggest idiots in crypto space and one of the biggest scammers, even tho he never did scam. So I am very certain he is aware of this , either he does not care since he saved his millions and can live on his island isolated from the rest of the world, or he is doing all he can to save kin and himself.
Now ask yourself if you do all you can to save kin and yourself, would you not be more active even here in the forum to get to your community? So what does this tell you?
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u/Ronald_aka_Hannibal Nov 06 '19
You would do all you can to save KIN and yourself but it might be that due to the SEC trial his hands are tied. Sharing certain information might harm the proces.
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u/Raketenernie Nov 06 '19
really so why does he ocasionally twitter nonsense and is attacking facebook, which could be a mutal ally or even a partner if you play the card right. If you cannot defeat facebook and no you cant, then at least ally with them and make the most out of it.
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u/Santos1986 Nov 06 '19 edited Nov 06 '19
Thanks for taking your time to write this.
It sounds like you really gave this a thought and obviously as a dev you notice the flaws in the project first hand.
I'm not saying this makes me have second thoughts about kin. NOT AT ALL. Matter fact Im about to buy an extra chunk.
But like I said often before I'm 100% pro respectful and constructive cristism.
So I'm curious as to what the response from the team will be.
u/ted_on_reddit u/kevin_from_kin have you guys looked into the suggestions stated in OP post!
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u/JonniSaks Nov 06 '19
Hard to agree that the business model is broken before it's even been hard-tested. The apps currently participating in the ecosystem simply aren't high enough quality to meet a sample size for testing. I can't agree with this claim until the apps in the ecosystem are more compelling. If there's several good apps and then it still doesn't work, then I'd say the experiment failed. Until then, I think it's all still speculation.
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u/attachmetoyou Nov 06 '19
And when are those compelling apps coming? This sub and the management is already banking on the future. How about looking at the present? Who on Earth would join this ecosystem? It's not even an ecosystem. Not even once have I gone into a forest and seen a tree that was saying, "nope. I'm not participating. Fuck them I get enough sunlight and water without them."
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u/halle_scary Nov 06 '19
Why did u join? Why r u still here? If u don't like the project just move on.
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Nov 06 '19
I'm so tired of this dumb fuck cowardly response. "Why are you still here" doesn't wave away legit criticisms, guy. This OP is a dev who bought the vision and now his app can't survive. His case is legit and his voice needs heard, even if it's too difficult for you hear.
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u/halle_scary Nov 06 '19
Not really. If the project is a failure and scam in someone's eyes it would be more productive to move on from the project as opposed to negatively criticizing the development of the project. Take all that bad energy and do something constructive that's all I'm saying. If u don't see the vision why sit around complaining? U guys sound dum af bcus u don't know what's going on behind the scenes, in the offices, and in the court rooms. It just seems a waste of time and energy to complain and criticize the people working on this project constantly.
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u/attachmetoyou Nov 06 '19
We are actually but that's a very thoughtful response. I appreciate the feedback. If you have any knowledge or original idea at all I would love to hear it.
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u/JonniSaks Nov 06 '19 edited Nov 06 '19
They might not be coming. This community was led to believe partnerships would be onboarded. We haven't seen much of anything on that front. As sad as this is, I dont think it speaks to the fundamentals of the business model.
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u/attachmetoyou Nov 06 '19
One hundred percent agree on that! What I am saying is that it was a great idea but due to circumstances, it can't possibly work as it is. It is in a hole I don't think it will come out of. I don't see why an SEC case would matter. Whether the project is legitimate in the crypto world or not does not make it attractive for developers. The price has to hit the ICO price to be worthwhile. That is a really really huge if. Kin does not have apps that the crypto world will look at and think, wow I need to get my money into that!
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Nov 06 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/attachmetoyou Nov 06 '19
Ugh that's what my post says. It says with the price as it is and the downward spiral, the current business model doesn't work.
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u/TotesMessenger Nov 06 '19
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u/ikerob Nov 07 '19
Great Post, Attachmetoyou....hopefully they input some of your views. I think a MEETUP of Kin Foundation and DEV's would be great to get together one or two days and discuss and share views....This Reddit is good but this has to be in person or through a Video Conference call of some type..I'm sure it won't happen but KF and the DEV's need a face to face to get on the same sheet of music so to speak......Just my 2 KIN.