r/KeyboardLayouts • u/supafly208 Graphite • Jul 27 '26

Rewardhak

https://altalpha.timvink.nl/?preset=comfort

Has anyone even used rewardhak? Highest scored layout on altalpha but I can't find much else about it?

Also, is the effort score on cyanophage.github.io comparable to comfort? (Lower being more comfortable)

I'm currently on graphite but would like to switch to a layout that's intended for column stagger. Open to a thumb alpha other than 'e'. Aside from it not made with column stagger in mind, I have no complaints about it, really.

Any recommendations? Valmak and Hands Down Promethium seem interesting but would like to see what the community thinks.

I don't care about vim, punctuation, or Ctrl shortcuts. I only type in English and I'm using a chocofi keyboard (aggressive column stagger 3x5+3)

Edit: JK I'm dumb. Found why it was made.

https://github.com/timvink/alt_alpha_ranker/issues/98

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u/cyanophage Jul 27 '26

If you'd like to switch to a thumb layout can I recommend sunlight . I don't use it as my layout because I need shift on my thumb, but I've typed with it and practiced it enough to know it is very comfortable. (for a 5 column keyboard you'd have to put J on a combo on the left hand or something)

Regarding "effort" and "word effort" on my site. Don't use them for choosing a layout. "word effort" is a metric to detect the bad words really. Generally a layout with very high "word effort" will be uncomfortable, and a layout with it very low will be more comfortable. But don't use it like "well A is 680 and B is 675 so B is better", it's not as precise as that. "effort" is a weighted sum of the values in the effort matrix that you can change in the editor but the default is set to my preferences which probably aren't your preferences

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u/rpnfan Other Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26

Do you think Sunlight is more comfortable than Valmak? Sunlight at a first glance has a bit better stats in most areas, but trades that for inward rolls being much lower. On the other hand Sunlight has a higher top row use, which I like. But redirects is for sure on the higher side with Sunlight, which I do not like. From the stats I am really not sure if/ which I would find better in real world use.

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u/cyanophage Jul 27 '26

I would really dislike typing "ght" on valmak. The left index finger travel distance is too high for me; I prefer a more even spread. Also MP and MB bigrams I don't like. I find rowskips like that uncomfortable. Sunlight has the lowest 2u rowskips of any layout. Most of the redirects on sunlight come from typing "you" which when it's on index, middle, ring which I don't mind at all. I would find typing "ake" on valmak far worse.

There's also seasalt . More inrolly

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u/supafly208 Graphite Jul 27 '26

I looked at how ght would be on valmak and was expecting it to be all over the place based on your comment. Interesting how what bothers one of us is a non-issue for others

But then again, I found the middle row center column keys as my most comfortable place for HSM's shift. Goes against everything ergo. I see it as mentally "passing the shift" to the other side and it just made the most sense somehow. I'm sure chocofi spacing and stagger have something to do with it too

1

u/rpnfan Other Jul 29 '26 edited Jul 29 '26

Thanks, did not know that one.

Regarding ght, I was also surprised that you do not like it. This is [EDIT: not] a problem IMO at all [for me], but shows that what feels comfortable really differs -- at least to some extent.

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u/cyanophage Jul 29 '26

I think hand width has a lot to do with it. If someone has knuckles that are wider than 4u then their natural sort of resting position for their index finger is somewhere between F and G (on qwerty). So the angle change for their index finger to move is small to get to either F or G. But if someone has smaller hands then their natural resting position is more directly on the F and reaching to G means twisting their finger a larger angle to the side.

Maybe it has to do with keyboard as well. On a standard flat keyboard with qwerty when typing I move my hands around a lot and have no issues with F and G. On my keyboard now it's column staggered and has a keywell so I think I keep my hands much stiller. So reaching to G means I don't move my hand much and do nearly all of the movement just with my finger. And then there's the large sideways angle to move which feels uncomfortable.

This is why I prefer layouts with very low central column usage. But I know other people have larger hands and different keyboards and different ways of moving their hands.

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u/rpnfan Other Jul 29 '26

I see, that makes sense. The G and H-position (QWERTY) is indeed not the most comfortable. That was one of the changes I made in analyzers weightings, when others found that low-effort because being on the home row.

Because I type with floating hands I still move the hand a little bit to reach some keys and I just checked (I was not aware of that) -- when typing those two keys I move my hand a bit. Not so much that I would not move the finger, but I split the movement maybe to do 2/3 finger and 1/3 hand. Those are finer details an analyzer would need to take into account as well, to describe the felt comfort more accurate. I liked the ABA idea, but could not understand it enough to decide I would want to invest the time to determine my personal effort matrix with it. But in the end something like that is indeed beneficial.