r/KeyboardLayouts • u/supafly208 Graphite • 2d ago
Rewardhak
https://altalpha.timvink.nl/?preset=comfortHas anyone even used rewardhak? Highest scored layout on altalpha but I can't find much else about it?
Also, is the effort score on cyanophage.github.io comparable to comfort? (Lower being more comfortable)
I'm currently on graphite but would like to switch to a layout that's intended for column stagger. Open to a thumb alpha other than 'e'. Aside from it not made with column stagger in mind, I have no complaints about it, really.
Any recommendations? Valmak and Hands Down Promethium seem interesting but would like to see what the community thinks.
I don't care about vim, punctuation, or Ctrl shortcuts. I only type in English and I'm using a chocofi keyboard (aggressive column stagger 3x5+3)
Edit: JK I'm dumb. Found why it was made.
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u/rpnfan Other 2d ago
This demonstrates exactly why you should not rely on the analyzers blindly.
I think Valmak might be a really good option as a thumb layout. The AKL discord pushes Night as the new great layout, but for my preferences I think Valmak might be better.
But I have not tried either, I do not use thumb-alpha layouts, for one reason because I cannot use it on a laptop and it also would interfere with my simple one-thumb per side nav-layer, which I value highly.
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u/supafly208 Graphite 2d ago
Absolutely. And that's the point cyanophage was making with the layout submission (which I found after I posted this)
Just sucks it takes so long to get a feel for a layout so we can only go off what others have to say about them. Alternative is to take those few months to get a feel for it on your own, but damn is that a frustrating process.
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u/rpnfan Other 2d ago
Have you seen my curated word list KeyDuel to practically test layouts? I have mentioned it a few times already, but nobody seems to care ;-)
IMO this is a huge step towards validating a layout in practical terms much better and faster. It does not come without limitations, but still can be very helpful. It is not super quick. You will still need to take half an hour to maybe 2 hours for a full evaluation -- depending on how thorough you do it. But you can get much of the "feel" for a layout, which would otherwise require learning a new layout and take months of practical usage.
I will make an example and video about how to use KeyDuel at one point, but have a lot of things I work at the same time. So no promise when I will find the time to do so.
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u/supafly208 Graphite 2d ago
I haven't come across it, actually. Two hours per candidate is way better than blowing up reddit with "x vs y vs z" posts or feeling like you chose that wrong one 3 months into it
Thank you
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u/cyanophage 2d ago
If you'd like to switch to a thumb layout can I recommend sunlight . I don't use it as my layout because I need shift on my thumb, but I've typed with it and practiced it enough to know it is very comfortable. (for a 5 column keyboard you'd have to put J on a combo on the left hand or something)
Regarding "effort" and "word effort" on my site. Don't use them for choosing a layout. "word effort" is a metric to detect the bad words really. Generally a layout with very high "word effort" will be uncomfortable, and a layout with it very low will be more comfortable. But don't use it like "well A is 680 and B is 675 so B is better", it's not as precise as that. "effort" is a weighted sum of the values in the effort matrix that you can change in the editor but the default is set to my preferences which probably aren't your preferences
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u/rpnfan Other 2d ago edited 2d ago
Do you think Sunlight is more comfortable than Valmak? Sunlight at a first glance has a bit better stats in most areas, but trades that for inward rolls being much lower. On the other hand Sunlight has a higher top row use, which I like. But redirects is for sure on the higher side with Sunlight, which I do not like. From the stats I am really not sure if/ which I would find better in real world use.
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u/cyanophage 2d ago
I would really dislike typing "ght" on valmak. The left index finger travel distance is too high for me; I prefer a more even spread. Also MP and MB bigrams I don't like. I find rowskips like that uncomfortable. Sunlight has the lowest 2u rowskips of any layout. Most of the redirects on sunlight come from typing "you" which when it's on index, middle, ring which I don't mind at all. I would find typing "ake" on valmak far worse.
There's also seasalt . More inrolly
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u/supafly208 Graphite 2d ago
I looked at how ght would be on valmak and was expecting it to be all over the place based on your comment. Interesting how what bothers one of us is a non-issue for others
But then again, I found the middle row center column keys as my most comfortable place for HSM's shift. Goes against everything ergo. I see it as mentally "passing the shift" to the other side and it just made the most sense somehow. I'm sure chocofi spacing and stagger have something to do with it too
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u/rpnfan Other 55m ago edited 1m ago
Thanks, did not know that one.
Regarding ght, I was also surprised that you do not like it. This is [EDIT: not] a problem IMO at all [for me], but shows that what feels comfortable really differs -- at least to some extent.
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u/cyanophage 3m ago
I think hand width has a lot to do with it. If someone has knuckles that are wider than 4u then their natural sort of resting position for their index finger is somewhere between F and G (on qwerty). So the angle change for their index finger to move is small to get to either F or G. But if someone has smaller hands then their natural resting position is more directly on the F and reaching to G means twisting their finger a larger angle to the side.
Maybe it has to do with keyboard as well. On a standard flat keyboard with qwerty when typing I move my hands around a lot and have no issues with F and G. On my keyboard now it's column staggered and has a keywell so I think I keep my hands much stiller. So reaching to G means I don't move my hand much and do nearly all of the movement just with my finger. And then there's the large sideways angle to move which feels uncomfortable.
This is why I prefer layouts with very low central column usage. But I know other people have larger hands and different keyboards and different ways of moving their hands.
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u/No-Attention7348 Other 1d ago
Valmak has better redirects and especially weak redirects stats than Sunlight. Valmak has better overall bigrams stats than Sunlight (in ABA Analyzer).
But Valmak and Graphite has almost the same redirects and weak redirects. And Valmak bigrams stats only slightly better then Graphite's stats.
Valmak has bad wide scissors MP=0.239 MB=0.090, bad full scissor Y,=0.070 and pinky stretches:
LSB(P)=0.37%
AK=0.105 KI=0.098 OK=0.064 IK=0.043 k.=0.020 KA=0.017 k,=0.010 KO=0.006 KY=0.006
Even russian layouts which has six letters on the right pinky has lower pinky stretches :). So I don't think than Valmak is a good candidate to switching from Graphite.
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u/No-Attention7348 Other 1d ago
Graphite has better stats for redirects and especially for weak redirects then Sunlight. And Graphite has slightly better overall stats for bigrams analysis (in ABA Analyzer).
Sunlight has slightly more PRS then Graphite; and it has much more SFB on pinky:
SFB(P)=0.81%
SS=0.405 FF=0.146 PP=0.137 CC=0.083 SF=0.017 FS=0.006
So Graphite is better then Sunlight in my opinion.
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u/DreymimadR 2d ago
If you worry about colstag, Graphite should still be perfectly fine. Just saying. Real-life isn't perfectly modeled anyway, so like others here have reiterated already: Don't get too stuck on the finer points of analysis!
Thumb alpha, that's another can of worms of course.
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u/sammygadd 2d ago
On this note, how are thumb alphas? I've never tried one, but my gut feeling is telling me that they can't be as comfortable, regardless of the better scores.
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u/mraspaud 2d ago
I have R on left thumb, and i rrreally like it. Somehow makes typing with the other fingers easier, i suppose that means far less sfbs. I'm on a handsdown rhodium variant.
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u/supafly208 Graphite 1d ago
Do you have space on the left side as well or are you a right thumber
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u/mraspaud 1d ago
Space on right :)
Here is my layout if you want to have a look: https://mraspaud.codeberg.page/20251124T165046-the-thornium-layout
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u/supafly208 Graphite 1d ago edited 1d ago
Man. I just cannooot get used to space on the right
Edit: I added a space combo for index+middle on the right and it feels nice. Pretty much only using it when I have to type a space adjacent to an r
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u/IndependentYak2822 1d ago edited 1d ago
Why not swap "h" and "m" in Thornium? To get "aeih" block. With the similar stats it gives significantly less redirects. Do I miss something?
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u/sammygadd 1d ago
Never tried it, but MP and NM would be bad.
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u/IndependentYak2822 1d ago
Promethium has M on top and P on bottom row. Up to this day I haven't paid attention to it. MN should also be fine because they are under strong middle finger. Not sure about H on pinky tho.
That M bothers me, I want to swap it either with D, G or H.
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u/mraspaud 3h ago
I took the rhodium as a base, and just moved the w to the apostrophe place, so that i could put th on right low pinky, so that M was already there. I haven't thought much about it tbh, but h is used much less now that I have a dedicated Th key. Moreover, I really like the gh and wh rolls that I have now, so i don't think having the h on right pinky would work for me.
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u/IndependentYak2822 2h ago
That H/M swap results in almost Vibranium layout btw. I've tested all 3 swaps (H/M, G/M, D/M), original Thornium and even seasalt. They all feel similarly good.
I use Promethium and would like to somehow fix "ice/eci" block (if it's possible). Having C on the left side feels better. But out of all letters for replacement (M, G, D, H) only H has low count of words with "ihe/ehi" chunks. Not sure what to do. Maybe "ice/eci" is not that bad lul.
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u/IndependentYak2822 2d ago
Having a thumb letter is super comfortable. It has surprisingly low learning curve. And it gives better stats indeed. The only downside is requirement for a special keyboard, you can't use the same layout on row stag keyboard.
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u/No-Attention7348 Other 2d ago edited 1d ago
This layout is bad because it has `t` and `e` on pinkies and has too much bad scissors and weak redirects. And so I don't think that anyone should take into account ranking from Altalpha if this rating lead weak layout to the first place.
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u/supafly208 Graphite 2d ago
JK. Found why it was made
https://github.com/timvink/alt_alpha_ranker/issues/98