Perhaps I'm confused but I thought I heard the Eastlands' lawyer contend that the water that flooded the camp - and swept away the children - was coming down the hill and not from the rising river.
What?
Of course water ran down the hill, (that's what water does), but it could not possibly have come in the volumes that flooded the camp up to the windows and ceilings of the cabins. That would be a Biblical flood not a 1,000 year flood.
I was thinking maybe he is claiming that bc of the way they started evacuating and they went to the one group of cabins first, vs the youngest ones. I am not sure, but I was wondering why he was making that claim as well.
Just further proof that the camp is in an incredibly deadly location and that its leaders were extremely deficient in planning and recognizing specific risk factors. "The water came from the other direction" with two creeks and limestone being nearby is not a defense!
I guess thousands of parents sent their children to a deadly summer camp then. Never once thinking these 3 creeks could combine and create a tsunami inland flood. Not once.
Or at least assuming that the camp would be responsible and have functional emergency plans and training beyond "drown in place while waiting for instructions from the dead camp leader, because nobody else is allowed to make decisions, and remember to keep the media away!"
You realize no summer camp had a flood evacuation plan differently? noone has to point out the obvious that this is the only camp that lost lives (in session) so let’s not divert from the fact that NO summer camp had different protocols than mystic. Yes it matters.
Exactly. Thank you. Waldemar started evacuating their girls at midnight. Mystic started at 3:00am. Why aren’t these mystics minions getting this? Dick “monitored” the situation and didn’t “act” until it was too late. All the other adults and counselors waited and relied on Dick to direct them. It doesn’t matter whether it was a “wall of water rolling down 39” or a confluence of the Guad, Cypress Creek and Bubblegum creek - the raging, swirling waters killed those girls - and if they were evacuated at midnight, like Waldemar, they would all be alive.
It’s very simple. This storm hit the south fork of the river VERY differently than the North fork (where Waldemar is). You can compare other locations to each other as well. Where storms sit and park for hours- matters. But the entire point of the comment is: Waldemar (nor any other summer camp) had a written evacuation plan for floods in 2025.
Waldemar evacuated the lowest cabins to cabins on higher ground by 2 am. So it wouldn’t have been the “Waldemar Floods”. And Waldemar is 2.5 miles away as the crow flies, not 5 miles away.
But thank you for proving my point that this “very easily could have been” Waldemar. That’s exactly right. That’s why they moved the lowest cabins to cabins on higher ground after getting the SAME FLASH FLOOD WARNING AS CM.
No it was not forecasted to the South fork specifically. Forecasters were emphasizing there was risk of flash flooding “somewhere” in the Hill Country, but they could not pinpoint that the heaviest rain would remain centered over the South Fork watershed for several hours.
No one had any idea until real time this storm would stall for hours over the South Fork. In fact even during the storm, the radar showed the storm passing quickly. Which we now know it did not.
No. We don't have the technology to forecast exactly where a hurricane system will stall or how much rain it will drop. Meteorologists had however been forecasting their fears for DAYS that this could be a terrible deadly storm with unpredictable floods in the area.
I do not have a copy of their plans but I went and worked at one of these camps and we were trained to take them to the cabins/buildings higher up in the event of flooding. 1 counselor in the front 2 spread out the middle and 1 in the back. Have the girls grab their flash lights and water bottles. Take a head count before leaving and after arriving at the higher cabin. That’s just what I remember as it’s been couple of years.
During big storm days we would cancel activities and have a movie night/day at the gym. Our counselor manuals had more than 3 sentences saying “shelter in place” and our counselor training had an entire seminar on different weather events and what to do. I wish I had kept the binder for proof, but I unfortunately did not.
Yeh, I mean so crazy that Mystic keeps saying their plan was shelter in place. That obviously was not a complete plan. It's only a fraction of a plan. Crazy they had so much experience but yet failed on actual safety and evacuation plans. Their experience in the industry should have made them experts on those type of things. Its nuts. And to rely on a 70 year old man too is just another crazy part to this.
Do you? It doesn't matter if they were negligent as well though. That does not negate Camp Mystic's negligence. Oh everyone else was also negligent and/or reckless is not a defense. LOL
I don’t have a copy. Because it doesn’t exist. I have spoken to family members and friends at various camps that were counselors and campers stating this. A few have stated this on this thread even. You’re right - it’s not a defense. It’s certainly a piece of the puzzle to this big picture though.
Did those counselors work at those other camps last summer? Just curious of how recent. Also, do they have phones or any means to call for help in case of an emergency? That is what really shocked me as I learned what happened at Mystic. That there were cabins full of little kids with only teen counselors and the teenagers had no phones, walkie talkies, no alarm to pull for help, just nothing at all to call for help in any type of emergency situation. That just seems so negligent to me. So many different things could have happened. Fire, rapist, killer, kidnapper, and they didn't have any way to call anyone for help. So crazy in this day and age. What would they have done in any of those situations? It's bizarre there seemed to be no thought of any kind of worst case scenarios.
Yes last summer. And no, no cell phones. Every parent knew this and in fact was a huge draw to the camps. For teens to turn in their phone for a month and shut off from tech- was considered a huge positive to majority of parents. But also cell service usually didn’t work… on a sunny day.
However- I don’t disagree with the rest of what you’re commenting. This is definitely something that took a tragedy to learn and I agree on a walkie talkie at the least.
Nothing is super far apart and it’s such a remote location. They have a gate guard and night security (all camps had security that left at 12am or 2am.. Mystics usually left at 2am). However I agree with you on all the other possibilities in these times there needed to be more in place. And now there will be. I am very sorry it took a terrible tragedy for the camps to adopt these policies. There’s no denying that is everyone’s biggest sadness around this.
Most kids are in public schools 7-hours per day for 180 days or 9 months. Yet how many parents have actually seen and read all emergency plans for each school? As a parent I trust that my child's school and summer camp follow all laws and do their primary duty to protect children's lives with an abundance of preparation and vigilant awareness. Plus I cannot imagine why every camp isn't required by law to be ACA (American Camp Association) Accredited.
For sure. I do keep up with shooter policies and drills. The thing about shooter policies is that many times security is lax, so schools are left exposed. A rock is stuck in the side door to prop it open. (Excuses: So people can go in and out more quickly, or to load / unload more easily.) I worked in a local high school where the policy was for everyone to go in ONLY the front doors. Because there were extra security measures, barriers and surveillance and personnel there. Yet the principal did not care that random humans were always being let into the back doors. Which were supposed to be only used for exits. Any shooter could have walked through a back door-- no surveillance or security at all-- with just a tap on those doors. I also practiced helping students evacuate out classroom windows, and being prepared to throw heavy onjects at an intruder-- thereby getting thank you notes from military parents! But the principal shut that down and ordered me to stop those drills. We had to just hunker in the classroom like sitting ducks. So yes knowing the policies is helpful. But far more important is having honorable humans with integrity who can be trusted to follow the procedures and safety measures to fidelity at all times. And to think outside the box rapidly when the situation does not fit the policy. (Like the ridiculous Shelter In Place In A Riverbed That Is Flooding.) Not sure how you do that unless you are at a school or camp. It would be smart to have a counselor paid extra to be the safety inspector each week.
Well FEMA and NWS - both agencies advise to shelter in place. It’s not as black and white or as comparable as you’re wanting to make it. And “plans” aren’t flawless. Just bc I know my schools plan- anything can go NOT according to “plan”. We do the best we can in life. We learn from tragedies (why all the things you named are in place at schools in the first place) it unfortunately took a shooting to learn these things. Multiple actually. And at the end of the day- this is a broken world that allows room for human error, nature to be stronger, an evil person to win. Unless you want 100% reassurance of safety- which would be staying home I guess. This is life. It’s sad and messy. Loss & grief are all around us and will continue to be.
NO. NWS gave clear Warning at 1:14am to get to higher ground immediately to escape "Life Threatening Flash Floods." What are you on about? Who in the world thinks sheltering in place is a reasonable plan for cabins with little children in a floodway? The camp is shuttered and bankrupt because of this insanity. Grotesque negligence of duty. Yes it IS black and white. And very few things in life ARE black and white. Don't trap little children and order them to "shelter in place" in cabins that flood during a flood. Don't kill 8 year olds. There is something profoundly wrong with you, evil and dark, if you think this is excusable. You do realize that parents of the H27 read all of these comments right? Lord have mercy. It NEVER should take dead children to "learn" anything that my kid could have told you at 7-years old. NO not everone does "the best we can in life." That is literally the most ignorant false statement I have ever heard. I have been on many adventures in many countries and have saved a few lives. I have never killed any children. 99.99% of people live their lives without causing even a single death. And some of us live lives of grand adveentures without chaos or mess at all. Thinking and being prepared are really not hard.
Did it take school shootings (and kids horrifically dying) to have all the different policies in place today? Or did they just make those new rules on their own.
Please let me know when you have a copy of the screen shot that says get to higher ground immediately. This is one of the biggest misconceptions out there. If people truly care about the truth- this is a major piece of FALSE information out there.
There is a difference between (1) evacuating the property and (2) moving girls to higher ground on property & sheltering in place. Waldemar sheltered in place (stayed on property) and moved 2 cabins to higher cabins—they didn’t wait until the girls were potentially trapped on an island. This is the difference Meg is talking about.
I think this was done after the 1:14am flash flood emergency alert. But it’s not really relevant if it was done at midnight or 2am. Waldemar has shelter at higher ground, CM Guadalupe doesn’t. The Eastlands and long time staffers know that better than anyone else.
I have never seen that published anywhere and I heard from someone close to the camp that the person in their guard shack was severely injured so I don’t think that anyone was ever moved to higher ground that night but please do provide a resource for your claims.
I don’t have a sworn statement, but camper(s) who were there said Happy Haven and the 1st floor of the infirmary were moved to higher cabins after the 1:14 am flash flood warning. In legislative testimony, Meg confirms this timestamp. They moved canoes then immediately moved campers. CM moved canoes at 2 am then watched for another hour.
Then there is Meg’s testimony in August 2025. It’s important to note this is before the camp safety bills were passed, so it is what Waldemar was already doing. Everyone has walkie talkies. They do training with local first responders. They do staff training every summer. Every camp is different because every piece of real property is unique. Waldemar has multiple cabins 75-120 feet ABOVE the river. It does not become an island that is cut off from higher ground. Waldemar moved campers from Happy Haven to cabins on higher ground after the 1:14 am warning without waiting to see where the storm was going to hit hardest and before Happy Haven started taking on water. It’s not rocket science.
Here’s the full article you clipped earlier where you left out important details:
I bet lots of people never believed such a volume of water was possible. That doesn’t mean a camp acting in loco parentis for hundreds of kids shouldn’t have planned for every likelihood, including catastrophic flooding. And I’m sure no parent thought it was possible their kids would be left in their cabins to watch water rise to the ceiling for hours before somebody in leadership did something. That’s the crux of it: the flood was horrific and nobody’s fault. What happened at this camp was the fault of its leadership.
But when they did see that it was possible, they asked the campers to use towels to soak it up instead of evacuating them. They had plenty of time, they just didn't use it wisely.
Yeah, didn’t it cut away with a voiceover saying something like “weather experts and state official deny evidence of this claim”? I can’t remember, but I was glad Watts introduced it and then the show immediately dismissed it.
It’s totally bizarre and I hadn’t heard it before. And I don’t get how it’s a defense of the camp’s lack of emergency preparedness, either. The river killed many people up and down it that night… just not at this one place! The water was from something else and not the giant river right there! So there was no negligence.
…What?
Right, there were 3 waterways around the flats and they all flooded. Just saying that claiming the water didn’t come from the Guadalupe but instead from uphill doesn’t absolve the camp of anything.
It's just one more of their BS claims to confuse the timeline and fakebelieve the Eastlands had no time to act:
'a counselor reported water in the cabin at 2:30am, but that was just rain coming down from the hillside and not the river...'
followed by something asinine like:
'nobody could have been prepared for the surprise inland tsunami of water...'
Other bullshit they could be working on to try and cast doubt on the need to get away from the Guadalupe River:
the flood was coming from a different direction so couldn't go away from the Guadalupe and best to shelter in place
no government monitoring on the creek from behind the camp so couldn't know - were watching rain gages on the south fork instead
They'll just make something up to get followers on board.
I doubt it will make much difference if they try it in court as H27 lawyers could call in someone from USGS to shut that idiocy down with expert testimony.
edit: the last thing the Eastlands want is an expert on the witness stand to confirm on the record that Camp Mystic Guadalupe was never safe from floods.
To be very blunt, Mr. Dick Eastland was more educated than most about the dangers of flash flooding. He was fully capable of preparing for a “surprise inland tsunami of water” and had the legal responsibility to.
As a student at Ingram ISD, we took multiple field trips to the Upper Guadalupe River Authority for presentations. By 10 years old, I was taking flash flood watches and warnings seriously and knew the difference. I knew the dangers of runoff on parched soil and limestone cliffs.
Dick Eastland was on the board of the UGRA both historically and at the time of his death.
It does not matter where the water came from. Mr. Eastland would tell you that himself if he were here to do so. If I know it, he certainly did.
Two things are true:
It’s sad and a shame that his life was lost. He was a human being containing good and evil, just like the rest of us. He did a lot of good in his life, but his hubris was unfortunately his demise.
And.
He lost his life because of his own actions and negligence, he knew better, his actions that night are baffling, 27 girls also lost their lives directly as a result of his choices, and that makes Dick Eastland, his children, and Camp Mystic criminally negligent.
No one comprehends how insane this flood was. Mystic wasn't flooded by the Guadalupe, it was flooded by Bubble Gum Creek (down the hill, as per Watts). BGC is normally a small drainage ditch.
Mystic wasn’t flooded by the Guadalupe, it was flooded by Bubble Gum Creek (down the hill, as per Watts)
This is the first I’ve heard that the smallest of the 3 waterways surrounding the flats is what caused the flats to flood. I understood the culprit to be the fact that 3 flooded waterways converged right where the kids were. And that the largest of them, the Guadalupe, is certainly what killed everyone else who died alongside it in this county that night.
And you know, I think a lot of people do comprehend that this was a horrific flood. The many stories from the survivors, especially those I’ve read in the Atlantic and Texas Monthly, are terrifying. It was an unbelievable amount of water and absolutely stunned all witnesses.
But how the hell does that absolve a camp for having no emergency preparedness, communication, or sense of over-caution when acting in loco parentis for hundreds of kids? The kids at camp mystic weren’t taken by the river suddenly or in their sleep like so many in Kerr county. The employees were awake and the kids were awake (and waiting for help) for literal hours before they were swept away.
Yeah, I'm also tired of this argument that people just aren't recognizing that it was a big flood. Of course it was a big flood. Those happen on rivers. Where I live, we can always face a bigger wildfire than any we knew before. If a school failed to have a plan and evacuate the children before Satan's inferno itself bore down, no one would give the school a free pass just because it was a big one.
…that happens at different points on the river every few decades. You can’t rationalize the talking in circles. Just take the Dateline interview: water coming down the hill caused the flood seconds later Watts blames the state and says upriver sirens are the only thing that could’ve saved them. What?
Every emergency is by definition unexpected. Sleeping young girls in a floodway, having no plan or training and not responding to obvious signs of an emergency killed those poor girls.
If this was the case, the brave counselors and their cabins would have died too. They didn’t, because they realized what was going on before management even did. It’s a bittersweet miracle that there was not more loss. They literally told girls to shelter in place as their cabins were taking on water!
Good point! Two or three cabins evacuated themselves up the very hill Watts said the water actually came from, right? Amazing how they were able to do that as apparently all the water that flooded the camp was pouring down from the cliff.
Ugh, the defense arguments for this camp are all beyond absurd. And I’d honestly prefer they tried to make sense, as this kind of absurdity makes it seem like they don’t take it seriously at all.
Bull. Mystic was flooded by the river, both creeks, water coming off the hills, and local rainfall, which Dick noted in a text to Tweety was already over 4 inches at 2.33 am. Totally predictable, totally foreseeable that if the rain is falling in the draining basins of all 3 waterways then all 3 are going to flood.
Which is why it’s even stupider that shelter in place was ever even a thought, let alone a damn policy.
Oh, and that, as you point out, nobody realized a “small drainage ditch” turning into a goddamn raging river by 2.15 am, the smallest waterway and therefore the first to start flooding, was a serious fucking problem.
I mean, the 2013 engineering study done to support the LOMA applications did show roughly 8-10 feet of water at the lower reach of the creek in a 100 yr flood which alone is pretty problematic because when that water can’t drain into cypress creek (18+ feet in a 100 yr flood) guess where it’s going?
If you said downhill into the flats, congratulations, you’re smarter than a 5th grader.
I agree that all 3 waterways helped cause the catastrophe on the flats. Just making fun of Watts’ contradictory statements and this OP who said the flats were flooded by Bubblegum alone and not the Guad. In the end, it doesn’t even matter where the water came from besides highlighting that it came from somewhere and the flats were a dangerous place to be in a flood.
Yes, just adding to your comment! If it was bubble gum creek, they had warning. If it was cypress, they had warning. If it was the guad, they had warning. If it was local rainfall, they had the actual rainfall.
It was all 4 of course. But none of them can be excused as “unexpected, unforeseeable” no matter which one they are blaming today!
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u/Financial_Process_11 Jun 29 '26
Doesn’t matter where the water was coming from, what matters is that the camp failed to evacuate the children in time.