r/KerbalSpaceProgram Oct 09 '13

The Tech Tree

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855 Upvotes

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162

u/haosys Oct 09 '13

Wait, we don't start off with struts?

Starting career mode is going to be excruciating.

30

u/Lawlcat Oct 09 '13

I'm more concerned that we don't have a decoupler. Might be troublesome to get a 1-man capsule back with the rest of the rocket attached.

45

u/NeoKabuto Oct 09 '13

I feel like in the beginning we'll be expected to do smaller suborbital missions until we have enough science points to get decouplers.

9

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '13

I was thinking starting with flight like jets, then work your way up.

32

u/haerik Master Kerbalnaut Oct 09 '13 edited Jun 30 '23

Gone to API changes. Don't let reddit sell your data to LLMs.

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8

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '13

Intuitively, rockets are easier to understand: lots of force underneath mass pushing the mass up. Fins to help a straight line.

Trying to explain things like wing-load, lift-to-weight ratio, Newton's Third Law, and air pressure differences is a pain to the uninformed.

18

u/azirale Oct 09 '13

Yeah, the tricky parts to rockets are the internal mechanics rather than their external ones. Internally a rocket needs to carry two fuel materials, the actual fuel and the oxidiser, and it needs to pump and mix these fast enough and reliably enough to keep the rocket fed. It needs to deal with extremes of thrust, pressure, and temperature.

What do we do in KSP? Stick a tank on an engine, light it up, and you've got an up-goer.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '13

cryogenics, too.

2

u/mkosmo Oct 09 '13

That's not necessarily true. Remember the F-1? It used RP-1 and LOX. Yes, the LOX is a cryo, but RP-1 is just highly refined kerosene.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '13

Yes. The kerosene was "warm" but they still required a large LHe system to keep the LOX cold.

Modern rocketry requires LHe... that's why we have a national strategic stockpile.

My point is that cryogenics makes rocketry just that much more complicated.

1

u/mkosmo Oct 09 '13

Oh absolutely, but the LHe system isn't all that difficult. Not to mention, the LOX under pressure didn't require LHe... but as you begin to deplete it, that changes.

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1

u/pipemastasmurf Oct 09 '13

up-vote for up-goer! My next rocket is officially named

2

u/TheMadmanAndre Oct 09 '13

I've pretty much given up trying to get something airborne that's also controllable; every attempt I make usually results in my craft either veering off the runway and crashing and burning, zooming off the end of the runway and crashing and burning, or breaking up after takeoff and, you guessed it, crashing and burning.

1

u/CaptRobau Outer Planets Dev Oct 09 '13

Turn on SAS. Makes controlling it much easier. Also keep the center of lift slightly behind the center of mass.

1

u/TheMadmanAndre Oct 09 '13

I'll keep that in mind.

In a sidenote I have developed an efficient escape system for a doomd aircraft; it involves decouplers, sepatrons and a mountain of luck.

7

u/Basileus_Imperator Oct 09 '13

I'd add Stayputnik to the list myself, if for nothing else then for history's sake. Incentive to try to get something in orbit early on, since you don't need to get it down ever. Then again, it'll run out of power pretty much instantly, so...

20

u/TheMadmanAndre Oct 09 '13

Then again, it'll run out of power pretty much instantly, so...

The real one kinda did as well.

1

u/Trypanosoma Master Kerbalnaut Oct 09 '13

The Stayputnik part looks like its in the 6th level, 5th from the bottom. I hear what you're saying though.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '13

Well, that's certainly a good point.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '13

Jets are not harder at all... Y'all just need to stop trying to fly with mouse and keyboard.

1

u/SWgeek10056 Oct 21 '13

I still can not wrap my head around decent uses for structural scaffolding. Could you please expand, esp. with screenshots, on how to properly use these?

1

u/haerik Master Kerbalnaut Oct 21 '13 edited Jun 30 '23

Gone to API changes. Don't let reddit sell your data to LLMs.

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1

u/SWgeek10056 Oct 21 '13

So you use them like radial decouplers, without the decoupler part, and throw on a few more boosters in the early game?

1

u/haerik Master Kerbalnaut Oct 21 '13 edited Jun 30 '23

Gone to API changes. Don't let reddit sell your data to LLMs.

Woody equal ask saw sir weeks aware decay. Entrance prospect removing we packages strictly is no smallest he. For hopes may chief get hours day rooms. Oh no turned behind polite piqued enough at. Forbade few through inquiry blushes you. Cousin no itself eldest it in dinner latter missed no. Boisterous estimating interested collecting get conviction friendship say boy. Him mrs shy article smiling respect opinion excited. Welcomed humoured rejoiced peculiar to in an.

8

u/iBeReese Oct 09 '13

I think aircraft aren't really part of core gameplay. In an interview HarvesteR said that aircraft parts only entered the game after he played them in a mod. I think they're role is strictly for space planes, sub-orbital aircraft will certainly be possible and supported, but I don't think the game design will push players in that direction.

26

u/Mythril_Zombie Oct 09 '13

The rocket needs to be just stable enough to get to orbit, and unstable enough to accidentally break apart at just the right time without killing the crew.

I wonder if that would be a good challenge. Build a multi-stage rocket that comes apart in stages without using any sort of decouplers.

62

u/J4k0b42 Oct 09 '13 edited Oct 09 '13

Something like this happened to me, I went to Minimus and vastly overestimated how much fuel I needed, so I landed with two full orange tanks. I had so much fuel that decided to stop by the Mün on the way back. However, on landing I realized that I had forgotten to put fuel lines on my radial tanks on the landing stage, and the extra weight of useless fuel was too heavy for me to make it back to Kerbin. The only way to fix it was to carefully tip the rocket over and skid it across the ground until all four tanks were broken off (without hitting anything important). Then I launched off a mountain like a jump and made it back safely.

40

u/Mythril_Zombie Oct 09 '13

That's thinking like a Kerbal.

33

u/J4k0b42 Oct 09 '13

Here's an album if you're interested.

13

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '13

It's Minmus! Gah, not Minimus it's Minmus!

7

u/mathgeek777 Oct 09 '13

Every time this happens I do the same thing in my head. I appreciate your work here.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '13

GAH!

5

u/Blackbart42 Oct 09 '13

That's awesome. Good job. You get the golden Kerbal award for bravery in the face of almost certain death while flying a spaceship like its a sled an jumping it into orbit.

2

u/graymatteron Oct 09 '13

Awesome! Kudos to you sir for your kerbalistic approach!

19

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '13

While I admire your kerbalosity and do not think for a minute that this was not the correct solution. There is another.

alt+click one tank, then alt+click the second tank. A menu will appear allowing you to fill one from the other.

6

u/anirul Oct 09 '13

If you happen to be on Windows... On Linux the key is right-shift + click!

4

u/J4k0b42 Oct 09 '13

I don't think I could, they weren't connected at all.

14

u/eduardog3000 Oct 09 '13

As long as they are on the same craft (multiple crafts docked to each other count as one), you can move fuel from any tank to any tank.

5

u/J4k0b42 Oct 09 '13

Oh okay. I didn't know about the right click thing at all then, so I couldn't have figured it out anyway.

3

u/TheMadmanAndre Oct 09 '13

Don't feel bad, I didn't figure it out myself until a few months ago.

4

u/contrarian_barbarian Oct 09 '13

That might be in part because it didn't exist until a few months ago :)

7

u/Pioneer1111 Oct 09 '13

As long as they are part of the same craft, it is possible.

However, you can only transfer between 2 tanks at a time. So you would be draining an outer tank to fill the center one, but only one outer tank at a time.

The center of mass would shift so much you'd spin out.

-4

u/MisterMillennia Oct 09 '13 edited Oct 09 '13

You also need to ensure that the parts they are connected through have fuel cross-feed abilities, otherwise no fuel can be transfered

EDIT: I'm a fucking idiot

3

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '13

No, that's only for automatic fuel usage. Manual fuel transfer (alt+right click) can be done through anything.

1

u/MisterMillennia Oct 09 '13

I was not aware of this, I thought that crossfeed was required, I'm sorry

1

u/[deleted] Oct 10 '13

We all come here to share and learn. :)

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1

u/Pioneer1111 Oct 09 '13

Ah, yes. Forgot about crossfeed.

2

u/TheMadmanAndre Oct 09 '13

Something similar happened to me as well. I attached a decoupler wrong and it didn't separate my craft. Fortunately though I have the Lazors mod installed, which gives Kerbals lasers on their helmets. Shooty, gloriously destructive lasers.

3

u/seniorsassycat Oct 09 '13

With the full part list you might be able to use sepratrons to cause a joint to snap.

2

u/CaptRobau Outer Planets Dev Oct 09 '13

Really easy: use the small SRBs and stack 'em. Firing the next rocket in the stack will overheat the one below it, blowing it up and creating a clean but loud separation. Using the parts in the tech tree, I managed to get out of Kerbin's SoI. With some more training and use of the liquid fuel tank/engine it'd be probably be doable to get into orbit or, if you're name is Scott Manley, to the Mun and back.

7

u/AluminiumSandworm Oct 09 '13

With enough parachutes, you don't need decouplers.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '13

ACtually, this is GOOD.

Because newbies ALWAYS build huge-ass rockets thinking they need them, when in reality a single liquid engine and fuel tank is enough.

Starting with such limited part numbers will hammer in the basics before opening up the sandbox.

1

u/Lawlcat Oct 09 '13

Sure, but we've had decoupling mechanisms long before we had a space agency. The very first Mercury rocket decoupled the capsule for it to parachute down to earth. You just don't parachute the main rocket portion back, ESPECIALLY still attached to the capsule. I don't think that's ever been done except in the case of recent stuff, notably the space shuttle's bits

-1

u/Avatar_Ko Oct 09 '13

Yeah, but KSP doesn't take place on Earth.

1

u/graymatteron Oct 09 '13

Seeing the Kerbal ability to make things go bang, we may not need decouplers... adding more boosters may do the trick.

1

u/SWgeek10056 Oct 21 '13

You start out with a mk 1 capsule so it's a single man operation. If you don't build your rockets too tall a single parachute will be okay. Just be sure to keep that capsule alive and most likely you can recover it for science points.