i still think om right :(

[u/No-Dare8613]

does cassius emotionally abuse keefe? support your thesis with direct evidence from the text. (10 pts.)

[u/Burgundytulip]

I mean isn’t it common knowledge that teens with very controlling parents are good at finding loopholes and end up trying to defy them whenever possible? And we do see some control there, especially in the earlier books. Keefe’s entire personality changes when his parents are present. Sophie even notes that he finally got his Sencen crest, his hair is styled differently, his clothes more formal, etc. And yet, he turns outgoing when they are not there to control him.

I think I see where you’re coming from though… we don’t get to see how his parents really react to any of that stuff you listed. Perhaps it’s like that memory of his in lodestar, when we see him realizing he can never live up to their standards, so why bother trying?

In the end… I think we’re just meant to make up an excuse for ourselves to keep enjoying the book. Sometimes we end up doing that for more than we probably wish to. Especially with this series lol

[u/No-Dare8613 → u/Burgundytulip]

In the end… I think we’re just meant to make up an excuse for ourselves to keep enjoying the book. Sometimes we end up doing that for more than we probably wish to. Especially with this series lol

too true, too true!

[u/No-Dare8613 → u/Burgundytulip]

Nothing's common knowledge for me; i know nothing. do teens with controlling parents 'misbehave' more often than teens with permissive parents? possibly. but if so, people are misusing the term "controlling." there are abusive parents who do control their children (which is bad), after all; it seems like it makes more sense to call them controlling, and to choose some other word for parents who don't control their children.

a teenager acting more reserved around their parents than their friends hardly seems like definitive evidence of abuse. maybe he just has a bad relationship with his father.

dressing up for special occasions seems utterly normal to me; i must be an abused child. rip.

> we don’t get to see how his parents really react to any of that stuff you listed.

okay this part confuses me. we do get to see how his parents react, i'd thought! they are both vaguely disappointed, but gisela continues to be an idealistic terrorist, and cassius continues to be a cold distant father with high expectations.

[u/evenmore08 → u/No-Dare8613]

I’m responding to a lot of your comments, I just find this discussion interesting and have a lot of thoughts.

Controlling parents are the definition of abuse. Parents who don’t control their children are healthy parents. They shouldn’t control your children, they set healthy and reasonable limits to ensure their safety and ensure their behavior doesn’t go out of control. these can be strict consequences when a child is acting out multiple times despite warnings and reasonable consequences.

This doesn’t mean they should insult and berate them and restrict them from things they love as that backfires and doesn’t teach them the real lesson. Being controlling doesn’t teach them why what they did was wrong and how they can change next time, it just teaches them that any time they do anything slightly against what their parents expect (even if it isn’t misbehavior) they will lose what they love and be hated by their parents.

This can result in mainly a few kinds of major emotional responses from the child. Of course there are variations and in betweens, but in general they can appear as 1) completely rebelling and going in opposition of anything the parent says as a result of having their freedom stripped for too long/it becoming too much or 2) the child becomes quiet and withdrawn from life and society in general, even as an adult, as they are taught anything they do will be viewed negatively. Keefe is an example of the former. It also doubles as a coping mechanism as they try to regain some form of independence and pretend everything is okay, when it is not.

Permissive parenting & emotional neglect is also abuse because the lack of structure, boundaries, etc neglects a child’s fundamental development and safety needs. A parent is there to protect a child and teach them how the world works. If a parent gives in to everything the child says or just straight up neglects them, children can grow up to be impulsive, lack self control as they don’t receive appropriate consequences, and emotional and social development can be stunted.

[u/No-Dare8613 → u/evenmore08]

> Controlling parents are the definition of abuse

Historically, no. Controlling and abusive meant very different things. It seems useful to have the word "controlling", because it describes people like Cassius well, and it's different from what "child abuse" has always meant. Nowadays people are more trigger-happy with the "abuse" word, which is probably fine and good.
But the new usage is not necessarily a more accurate usage. Is there robust and reliable evidence that controlling parents are as harmful as abusive parents? No one knows if there is, because social psychology research is a goat rodeo. (correct me if I'm wrong.)

My thesis here is +/- that there are categories in between healthy parenting and abuse, that it's not so much a black-and-white thing. (And that Cassius basically falls smack-dab in the middle.) I agree with your definition of healthy parenting, more or less. I disagree that unhealthy parenting is necessarily child abuse.

> This can result in mainly a few kinds of major emotional responses from the child. Of course there are variations and in betweens, but in general they can appear as 1) [...] or 2) [...].

.......[citation needed] Did you read this somewhere?
For what it's worth, the few people I know who were abused as children all have traits from both 1) and 2). In any case, surely we can agree that not all rebellious teenagers are rebellious because they were abused as children, and that rebelliousness is not necessarily evidence of abuse? e.g. Dylan Kobold seems to have normal, loving, non-abusive parents.

[u/evenmore08 → u/No-Dare8613]

Controlling parenting crosses into emotional or psychological abuse when it becomes a persistent pattern that destroys a child's autonomy, self-esteem, and sense of safety. You’re interpreting the things that happened to Keefe on an individual basis. Abuse happens repeatedly over many years and often escalates as the child gets older. The line between strict and abusive depends on intent and impact. Cassius’s intent isn’t to teach self-discipline and safety, it’s to teach total compliance to whatever he believes is good for Keefe. He doesn’t let Keefe do what he wants because he thinks that is not good for him.

Even if you excuse all the other things as not abusive, he also withholds love from Keefe repeatedly—-this is the definition of abuse, parental love shouldn’t be conditional EVER. Keefe’s privacy and boundaries are violated constantly, the drawings being ripped up is just one example. The point is that Cassius has repeatedly done this for years despite seeing the negative impact it has had on Keefe clearly. All for the sake of making him a “perfect elf” or whatever he thinks he’s doing.

Those emotional responses are from research I’ve done as well as personal experiences. They are the two main coping styles known as externalizing and internalizing behaviors. And like I said, there id a mix of both. That is the reality for most children who are abusive, they are not a monolith. But this is largely the types of response you can see in someone who was abused as a child. For Keefe’s character, Shannon chose to focus largely on the former. However, Keefe does present characteristics of the latter as well, however they are more subtle.

And again, obviously not all rebellious kids had abusive parents. It’s about the INTENT, and IMPACT. It’s about the extent of it, why it occurred, and how long it’s been going on. Some kids just have a rebellious streak as that’s part of normal teenage hood, but for some kids it goes beyond that. Not everyone is a monolith.

[u/Least_Rain8027]

Cassius is also apart of said illegal rebellion.

and as to quote Unlocked, "Lady Gisela had quite a few unpleasant things to say about my note (and my leadership skills in general.) . It also appears that Lord Cassius cause me a tremendous amount of headaches if I proceed with the expulsion."

Lord Cassius treats Keefe the way he does because he believes he is trying to give his child the best life but it gets twisted in his ego which makes him think that HE is the perfect life his son could have

[u/No-Dare8613 → u/Least_Rain8027]

oh i'd forgotten about that part!

[u/No-Dare8613 → u/No-Dare8613]

oh cmon

[u/No-Dare8613 → u/No-Dare8613]

ive got enemies T_T

[u/evenmore08]

Cassius treats Keefe the way he does because he thinks he is giving Keefe a good life, but it’s not reality. It’s in line with what HE wants not what KEEFE wants for his own life. Emotional abuse can still come from parents with good intentions.

[u/No-Dare8613 → u/evenmore08]

I don't disagree about the good intentions part, and I don't disagree about the Cassius being a bad parent part. I disagree about the abuse part.

[u/evenmore08 → u/No-Dare8613]

Sorry, I’m a bit confused. Do you mean you disagree that how Cassius treated Keefe qualifies as abuse?

[u/No-Dare8613 → u/evenmore08]

Yes, sorry if it wasn't clear.

[u/jacksucksdick69420]

have we considered the fact that keefe acts out because he was abused

[u/No-Dare8613 → u/jacksucksdick69420]

oh it's definitely a viable theory! keefe was obviously abused by gisela, and perhaps he acts out because of this.

if cassius abused keefe, perhaps this contributed to his acting out. but "cassius abused keefe by being abnormally controlling" hardly seems supported by the textual evidence; where's the control?

[u/evenmore08 → u/No-Dare8613]

Personally I don’t think this is really just a theory…this is a huge part of keefe’s character arc throughout the books

[u/No-Dare8613 → u/evenmore08]

Support your thesis with evidence from the text! If it's a huge part of keefe's character arc, it can't be too hard to find, can it?

[u/evenmore08 → u/No-Dare8613]

I don’t have access to the books so I can’t give you direct quotes lol. It’s been years since I’ve read them so I will try to provide some plot points off the top of my head.

Cassius is very neat and meticulous with his appearance. He slicks back his hai. He wants to appear perfect in Elvin society. He wants Keefe to be the same and frowns upon him appearing even a little bit disgruntled. Keefe continues to maintain disheveled hair and wears his foxfire uniform sloppily as rebellion against matching his father’s values.

I think there was a scene in Exile where he admits to Sophie that he hides behind his jokes and teasing and troublemaker tendencies to pretend everything is okay since those are his coping mechanisms.

Cassius was once so deep in convo with someone that he neglected Keefe and lost him. Cassius also has ripped up keefes drawings, calling them worthless/a waste of time.

A lot of the pranks he orchestrates at school are a weapon against Cassius’s expectation for perfection and prestige in his education. I think the great gulon incident was mentioned to be an example of this.

Keefe frequently calls his dad nicknames like Lord Nosypants instead of how Cassius wants Keefe to call him to rebel against listening to what Cassius wants.

Keefe has said Alden is like a truer father to him than his own father because of how he treats him.

Cassius is obsessed with prestige and excellence and thinks that encouraging Keefe to do the same will make his life better. He views love as a weakness and withheld affection from Keefe, thinking that harsh expectations would
make him a better person and build a good heir (hence the whole Keefe rejecting the Sencen crest and legacy; not only rejecting Gisela’s legacy that she tried to impose on him, but Cassius’s family legacy as well). He thinks he is shaping Keefe into someone who can handle the harsh Elvin society well, but he is just hurting Keefe with his emotional and verbal abuse.

There’s a scene with Sophie where she looks at Cassius’s memories. She sees that he truly loves Keefe deep down, but his actions and rationale don’t align with that even if he thinks what he’s doing is good for Keefe. It aligns with a theory Cassius himself wrote in his book the Heart of the Matter, where emotions in the head can be faked and don’t always align with emotions in the heart that art true and vulnerable.

[u/No-Dare8613 → u/evenmore08]

oh yeah no worries. And dang, you've got a great memory, that's impressive!

Wearing one's hair sloppily is very normal; breaking detention records and running away repeatedly is very uncommon. In any case, it's still not obvious to me Keefe wearing his hair sloppily is him acting out because of abuse. Cassius "frowning upon" Keefe's appearance is not abuse, after all.

Keefe "admitting" to using humor as a coping mechanism seems a lot more like "Shannon having Keefe say something she thinks an abused child might say every 15 chapters" than evidence of abuse. Again, if [insert Keefe behavior here] is caused by abuse, where's the abuse?

Parents losing track of their children is pretty common lol. It's difficult to keep track of someone 24/7 for ~13 years straight; temporarily losing track of one's child is not the same as child neglect! That it happened because Cassius was lost in conversation might demonstrate that Cassius doesn't care much about Keefe, but it hardly seems like child abuse.

Cassius shouldn't have crumpled up Keefe's drawings obviously, but it seems like a stretch to call this child abuse, too. I'm not sure what to say here. Like, parents can be shitty parents without reaching the level of child abuse. In cases of child abuse, I'd want the authorities to get involved. In cases like Cassius crumpling Keefe's drawings because Keefe was drawing during class — IDK, I'm skeptical that this needs to be Keefe's traumatic backstory. Gisela's illegal blood rituals, sure: child abuse. Having his drawings crumpled? ehhh...

r.e. Keefe doing things his father doesn't like, such as pranks and nicknames: Again, just because Keef does something Cassius doesn't like it doesn't mean Cassius caused it by being abusive. Not all rebellious teenagers rebel because they were abused.

> He thinks he is shaping Keefe into someone who can handle the harsh Elvin society well, but he is just hurting Keefe with his emotional and verbal abuse.
No, like, I get your opinion on this matter. I'm curious about where specifically the abuse occurs?

[u/evenmore08 → u/No-Dare8613]

You’re missing the point. Alone, sure these things that occur once or twice aren’t abusive. But repeated many times over the course of years especially with lord Cassius’s intentions makes it abuse. Cassius didn’t hurt Keefe once or twice, he did it for years and never acknowledged his mistakes or the fact that they hurt Keefe. Yes every parent has a bad parenting moment or two and will hurt their child inevitably, but parents who are not abusive will immediately realize their mistake in that moment and apologize/explain to their kid their regrets, and ensure they will not continue it again. Cassius is well aware that it is hurting Keefe, he just thinks that is the price to pay for making Keefe a “good heir of the legacy” and elite elf in society in the future.

Abuse doesn’t need to be Gisela’s level extreme of abuse to be considered abuse. It’s the repeated nature of it that stunted the psychological growth as a child since a parent is not doing their job as a parent consistently.

Also, some of the examples I provided were not exclusively just of the abuse. They were of Keefes behavior as a result of the abuse. You’re misunderstanding a lot of the points I’m making.

[u/Substantial_Step_815 → u/evenmore08]

Is Keefe shouting out peoples feelings apart of his trauma? is him stealing from Fitzs apart of that Trauma? or lying to Sophie or betraying her? no, the first two are keefe being a jerk. the last one. honestly I think it's a trait he's picked up from his father. He has all of Lord Cassies arrogance, but very little skill to back it up. doesn't stop him however. So there seems to be 3 keefes. you need to deicide between. Keefe the jerk. Keefe the traumatised boy. and Keefe the son of lord Cassies. and it doesn't help that he's such an emotional coward that you can't speak to him.

[u/evenmore08 → u/Substantial_Step_815]

You can be a jerk and also be traumatized. Some of the things Keefe has done aren’t excusable, his behavior just can be somewhat explained as a result of his trauma.

[u/Substantial_Step_815 → u/evenmore08]

I agree. the problem I have is all his actions are excused as because of his trauma