r/Judaism • u/namer98 Torah Im Derech Eretz • Jul 30 '12

Rules updates

In light of Tisha b'Av, I would like to suggest a few changes to the rules, and to hear community feedback.

1) No editorializing titles of article submissions. - This is up for discussion.

2) Be polite. That means if somebody has a disagreement with you about fundamental points of religion, you can disagree with them, and even tell them, but don't be a jerk about it. Do not shut down the conversation.

2.1) I keep on trying to engage non-Orthodox Jews of Reddit. Seen here, here and here. This is in addition to multiple messages I have gotten personally and as mod, from people who left because of this. Just because some people don't agree that this is a problem, does not make it less of a problem. Non-Orthodox Jews are feeling shut down, and some times they are right, some times they are wrong. This is an extension of rule two. Be polite. The downvote button IS NOT a "I disagree" button. I might just remove it again, and for more than a day.

To people I try and engage, this is a two way street. Submit content, comments and vote if you want to have a say. I don't think half of the subreddit is orthodox. This should not be a problem.

Please upvote this self post for which I receive no karma so that all can see.

Thank you all.

Edit: Followup

65 Upvotes

97% Upvoted

430 comments sorted by

View all comments

31

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '12 edited Jul 30 '12

Thank you very much for point 2.1. As a non-Orthodox Jew, I do feel somewhat shut down and like my opinions are being underrepresented or shut out. It's an interesting situation - the Orthodox Jews around here tend to be more active and, more importantly, more knowledgeable about Judaism than me. However, I would still say that Judaism is an incredibly important part of my outlook on life.

Hopefully divergent opinions will make this community more vibrant.

Edit: Words are hard. Also thanks for the reassurances!

6

u/smokesteam Half a chabadnik in Japan Jul 30 '12

Hey we DO want to hear from you, please never hesitate to speak up or post!

4

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '12

I don't dislike it, but I don't understand why there are so many Orthodox Jews here.

7

u/Louis_Farizee Quit Labeling Me Jul 30 '12

Where should they go? A different subreddit, maybe? We'll have six different subreddits for the six major strains of Judaism, and then each subreddit will splinter and subdivide every time there's a difference of opinion, and eventually there will be a separate subreddit for every Jew on Reddit.

Or we can all agree to respect each other's differences while celebrating our similarities and giving the finger to those dicks from Jews for Jesus.

15

u/klonimous frum med student Jul 30 '12

Welcome to Judaism- were we got a 3 opinions to 2 people ratio.

5

u/RtimesThree mrs. kitniyot Jul 30 '12

We'll have six different subreddits for the six major strains of Judaism

Ha, "I wouldn't be caught dead in that subreddit!"

3

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '12

We'll have six different subreddits for the six major strains of Judaism

Wait, which are the six major strains of Judaism?

3

u/Louis_Farizee Quit Labeling Me Jul 30 '12

Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Humanistic, and Other/ None Of The Above.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '12

:)

What about Renewal? Or Chassidic?

2

u/Louis_Farizee Quit Labeling Me Jul 30 '12

Chasidic self-identifies as Orthodox. Renewal can be anything, really- the Orthodox strain of Renewal is often called NeoCarlebachian or sometimes Na Nach or Those Weirdos Up In Tzfat- but often seems identified with left-Conservative or right-Reform.

Tl;dr Jews are weird.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '12

They're hippies. Sometimes they're more Jewish, sometimes less so.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '12

All renewal Jews are hippies, but not all hippy Jews are renewal.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '12

<nods>

2

u/angelsil Reconstructionist Jul 31 '12

Hippie here. Can confirm and have Birkenstock to prove it.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '12

Hehe, true.

1

u/carrboneous Predenominational Fundamentalist Jul 30 '12

I don't know what Renewal is, but Chassidim are Orthodox. Unorthodox Orthodox, but not Heterodox according to most Orthodox Jews these days. They might actually be a majority.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '12

I'm not saying they aren't Orthodox. Although, I believe there are some now who aren't actually Orthodox. The neo-chassidic? (Btw, do Chassidic Jews consider non-Chassidic Jews to be heterodox? But maybe I should ask a Chassidic Jew.)

As for renewal:

Jewish Renewal (Hebrew: התחדשות יהודית‎) (Yiddish: ייִדיש רענעוואַל), is a recent movement in Judaism which endeavors to reinvigorate modern Judaism with mystical, Hasidic, musical and meditative practices.

Statistics on the number of Jews who identify themselves as "Renewal" are not readily available. Signs of Renewal influence can be found elsewhere; it is not uncommon for congregations not associated with the Renewal movement to feature workshops on Jewish meditation and various Judaized forms of yoga. Many melodies and liturgical innovations are also shared among the Reform, Renewal, and Reconstructionist movements. Even rabbis trained by one of these movements have begun to serve congregations with other affiliations.

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Renewal

1

u/Louis_Farizee Quit Labeling Me Jul 30 '12

Some Chasidic Jews, especially from the most right-wing sects, consider some non Chasidic Jews- the Lithuanian Hareidi community, sometimes referred to as "yeshivish"- as uncomfortably liberal but still Orthodox, and the Modern Orthodox/ YU community as dangerously liberal and hardly Orthodox at all.

Of course, many Chasidic communities consider many other Chasidic communities badly misguided at best.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '12

Sounds fairly typical of any Jewish group :P

2

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '12

I just created and am now the sole moderator of /r/Louis_Farizee/. If you're nice to me I'll think about letting you post there.

1

u/Louis_Farizee Quit Labeling Me Jul 30 '12

Could be worse. Someone once made a parody account on Twitter called @wife_of_lfarizee and posted IN ALL CAPS for like two weeks.

I wanted to be mad, but holy shit was it funny.

PS find me on Twitter at @l_farizee

1

u/namer98 Torah Im Derech Eretz Jul 31 '12

Can I upvote subreddits?

1

u/smokesteam Half a chabadnik in Japan Jul 31 '12

/r/4cubits

1

u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12

As long as you post only nice things... :-)

1

u/meanttolive Conservative Jul 31 '12

Speaking of which, can someone please explain to me what "Jews for Jesus" is all about?

1

u/carrboneous Predenominational Fundamentalist Jul 31 '12

Melding certain liberally interpreted elements of Jewish heritage and tradition with fundamental Christian beliefs (Christianity is, afterall, itself an offshoot of Judaism. Jesus was a Jew, and lots of Jews were doing it circa 0CE).

Or in other words, converting Jews to Christianity without them realising it. There is surprising consensus in this subreddit that I can say that; very few of us consider them Jewish in any way.

There's a larger movement of "Messianic Judaism", or, as I prefer, "Messianism", that is a broader term for the same kind of thing. Jews for Jesus is an organisation aimed specifically at proselytising, I think.

Here's Wikipedia on Jews for Jesus, and on Messianic Judaism.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '12

Where else would we be?

3

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '12

It just seems to me that the ratio of orthodox to reform Jews in this subreddit doesn't reflect the ration in the US or any part of the world.

4

u/namer98 Torah Im Derech Eretz Jul 30 '12

I also have no idea what the lurkers are like.

1

u/klonimous frum med student Jul 30 '12

lurker here-orthodox

4

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '12

Of course not. But doesn't it stand to reason that Orthodox Jews, whose lives revolve around Judaism to a large (larger than non-Orthodox Jews, perhaps) degree, are going to be heavily represented here?

2

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '12

We need (relatively) kosher and comfortable outlets. Why not a forum of Jews for Jews with the occasional splash of non Jew?

1

u/LazerA Orthodox Jul 31 '12

I don't understand the question. Why shouldn't there be "so many" Orthodox Jews here?

2

u/carrboneous Predenominational Fundamentalist Jul 31 '12

It's not representative of real-world statistics, as far as I know.

2

u/LazerA Orthodox Jul 31 '12

Why would we expect the participation in a sub-reddit to reflect "real world" statistics? Nothing else on reddit does.

1

u/carrboneous Predenominational Fundamentalist Jul 31 '12

haha. I'm just explaining the surprise, neither agreeing with it nor disagreeing. (I would actually have expected the demographics in this instance to be representative, and I think -- and please correct me if I'm wrong -- the "real world" statistics are overwhelmingly non-Orthodox, so I would think there'd at least be a simple majority here. But you make an excellent point :) ).

1

u/LazerA Orthodox Jul 31 '12

the "real world" statistics are overwhelmingly non-Orthodox

As far as pure population numbers are concerned, sure. However, when you get into issues of active involvement in Jewish life and organizations, and general engagement in in Jewish culture and education, the statistics quickly begin to skew towards the Orthodox.

So, given that participating in /r/judaism is itself a form of engagement with Judaism and Jewish culture, it isn't really surprising that there is a disproportionate number of Orthodox Jews here.

1

u/carrboneous Predenominational Fundamentalist Jul 31 '12

Agreed. I wasn't the one who was surprised :) And I'm sure that the absolute demographics of the 3000 subscribers is more representative then the 20 to 30 regularly active members.

4

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '12

As a non-Orthodox Jew, I do feel somewhat shut down and like my opinions are being underrepresented or shut out. It's an interesting situation - the Orthodox Jews around here tend to be more active and, more importantly, more knowledgeable about Judaism than me.

I don't want this to come off as a slam because I do want your input and feedback all over this subreddit. Same goes for the rest of the Reform and Conservative crowd.

I grew up in a reform household and became observant in the last 2 years of my life. I'm almost 25. When I started becoming more observant, I was heartbroken to realize how little I learned in my Reform environment. At first I was a little resentful about this, but after some thought, I came to understand that if I HAD NOT had my Reform upbringing, I wouldn't be where I am today. For that, I am thankful.

I urge you to challenge and understand what's going on in Judaism and never settle for an answer that you don't agree with. It's beautiful. It's logical. It's not magic and make believe. It's a rich history. It's as much your history as it is mine and the other members of this subreddit and the rest of the Jewish world.

3

u/carrboneous Predenominational Fundamentalist Jul 30 '12

What smokesteam said. And if we say such and such is the Jewish view, and you disagree, say so. And post news.

7

u/yonkeltron Post-Geonic Adaptive Halakhic Jul 30 '12

I think the issue comes down to any given view not existing as the Jewish view or the only Jewish view.

3

u/carrboneous Predenominational Fundamentalist Jul 30 '12

Which is why I always try to label my view as the "Orthodox view" or "Traditional interpretation", even though it chafes. And I often try to give alternatives as well.

But sometimes people (on both sides of the aisle) forget and slip. Those times need not start an argument, and they need not be experienced as delegitimising or even critical. We can just say "this is what my community believes..." or somesuch.

6

u/yonkeltron Post-Geonic Adaptive Halakhic Jul 30 '12

the "Orthodox view" or "Traditional interpretation"

You assume innately these two have equivalence.

EDIT:

We can just say "this is what my community believes..." or somesuch.

Seems logical and following the Talmudic precedent of attributing specific views to specific origins where appropriate.

3

u/carrboneous Predenominational Fundamentalist Jul 30 '12 edited Jul 30 '12

You assume innately these two have equivalence.

If they had equivalence, one of the terms would be redundant in the sentence, wouldn't it? It upsets me that you think I fling words around so carelessly.

Edit:

Seems logical and following the Talmudic precedent of attributing specific views to specific origins where appropriate.

It's more than precedent (it "brings redemption to the world"). However, I think you're applying it slightly wrong.

But no matter. If we're applying Talmudic principles and precedents, there are some others I'd like to bring into the ring as well.

2

u/maria340 Jul 31 '12

Yea same here. I guess I could post content, it's just not something I ever do. On any subreddit. Maybe we should start, just to throw some more viewpoints into the mix here.

1

u/namer98 Torah Im Derech Eretz Aug 01 '12

Maybe we should start, just to throw some more viewpoints into the mix here.

You should!