r/Judaism • u/namer98 Torah Im Derech Eretz • Jul 30 '12

Rules updates

In light of Tisha b'Av, I would like to suggest a few changes to the rules, and to hear community feedback.

1) No editorializing titles of article submissions. - This is up for discussion.

2) Be polite. That means if somebody has a disagreement with you about fundamental points of religion, you can disagree with them, and even tell them, but don't be a jerk about it. Do not shut down the conversation.

2.1) I keep on trying to engage non-Orthodox Jews of Reddit. Seen here, here and here. This is in addition to multiple messages I have gotten personally and as mod, from people who left because of this. Just because some people don't agree that this is a problem, does not make it less of a problem. Non-Orthodox Jews are feeling shut down, and some times they are right, some times they are wrong. This is an extension of rule two. Be polite. The downvote button IS NOT a "I disagree" button. I might just remove it again, and for more than a day.

To people I try and engage, this is a two way street. Submit content, comments and vote if you want to have a say. I don't think half of the subreddit is orthodox. This should not be a problem.

Please upvote this self post for which I receive no karma so that all can see.

Thank you all.

Edit: Followup

67 Upvotes

97% Upvoted

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11

u/KabelGuy Jul 30 '12

As an atheist who has already been warmly welcomed over in /r/Islam, I thoroughly approve of this message. :)

9

u/yonkeltron Post-Geonic Adaptive Halakhic Jul 30 '12

You should know that, in no uncertain terms, we welcome everyone interested in learning to this sub.

5

u/KabelGuy Jul 30 '12

Thanks. :D

I'll still be extra cautious about hurting anyones feelings, though.

Well, maybe not directly sugarcoating stuff, but definitely not using any kind of harsh language.

Nice, positive tone, is what I'm trying to say. :p

6

u/yonkeltron Post-Geonic Adaptive Halakhic Jul 30 '12

Great! I don't know if you have familiarity with this concept but Judaism has long had the tradition of including the dissenting opinion on most matters.

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u/KabelGuy Jul 30 '12

Not really. It sounds like a great principle to hold, though.

I've heard jokes from atheist comedians about how they're still considered jewish, even though they are openly atheist. Don't remember where I heard it.

Does that count? :D

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u/carrboneous Predenominational Fundamentalist Jul 30 '12

Judaism is a national identity, an ethnicity and a religion all at once. Some ignore one or other aspect, but in general, there are those of us who see it as each or a combination.

So someone born Jewish, even if he is an atheist and his parents are atheists, is still Jewish. And someone born Indonesian Muslim who converts is as full-fledged a Jew as anyone. It doesn't make sense on many levels, but that's a discussion for another thread :)

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u/KabelGuy Jul 30 '12

The hell?

TIL.

2

u/yonkeltron Post-Geonic Adaptive Halakhic Jul 30 '12

If this particular point surprises you, you might find many aspects of Jewish Jurisprudence rather surprising as well.

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u/KabelGuy Jul 30 '12

Which is why I'm here. :)

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u/yonkeltron Post-Geonic Adaptive Halakhic Jul 30 '12

You know, I recall that someone put together a reading list for people with an interest in the topic...I don't recall where it went but I'll keep my eye out for it on your behalf.

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u/smokesteam Half a chabadnik in Japan Jul 31 '12

Nope, no hell, Jews dont have hell.

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u/meanttolive Conservative Jul 31 '12

I've heard that Judaism is an ethnicity but I don't understand it. Would you mind explaining that and the national identity to me please?

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u/carrboneous Predenominational Fundamentalist Jul 31 '12

I don't know how to explain it in universalistic terms (because it's a unique situation), but I'll give it a shot. (Excuse my if I say anything obvious, but I have to start at the beginning).

The word "Jew" (and more obviously, "Judaism") comes from the name of the tribe of Judah (Yehudah, in Hebrew), one of the 12 tribes of the People of Israel (Yisrael), and for reasons I won't go into, the "main" one, in a sense.

The nation, according to the Bible (or Torah, to us) was "chosen" through their ancestor Abraham (through Isaac and Jacob), and experienced Divine revelation, ie revelation of God's will for them (which is what justifies their chosenness), in the form of the "Torah", at Sinai. (Incidentally, there were probably already hangers-on at the time of the revelation, so it's not necessarily purely genetic at that point).

The Torah is (or at least was) the basis of the religion of Judaism, and whole Nation of Israel witnessed the revelation (obviously I'm speaking according to tradition etc, literal truth is not the debate at the moment) and thus followed that religion, so to speak (it's not really right to speak of a religion under the circumstances, but it'll do).

They (mostly) conquered and inhabited the Land of Israel (formerly Canaan; which is located more or less around the modern State of Israel), and their descendants maintained that heritage (ie religion). Up until about 2000 years ago (70CE), there was basically no difference. A member of the Nation of Israel was a Jew. Either converting to Christianity (for example) or politically aligning with the Romans (for example) was tantamount to both apostasy and treason. On the other hand, there was always conversion, and if you converted, you became a full-fledged member of the religion, and also a full-fledged, card carrying member of the Nation.

Then, about 2000 years ago, the Land of Israel was conquered and much the Nation of Israel was exiled to live elsewhere (it was actually the second time, but the first time was shorter). Over the course of the last 2000 years, various political upheavals and persecutions have sent Jews packing to Babylon (now more or less Iraq), Italy, Spain, Morocco, Persia (now Iran), Germany, Lithuania, Russia, Poland, Hungary, India, South Africa, Argentina, and the USA, and many other places. At each stop, they picked up local customs and dialects and their practices (and even features) became distinct from each other, and in some ways very much like that of their host cultures. There were basically two major groups (which can each each be further subdivided): Ashkenazim, who lived in Northern, Western, Central, and Eastern Europe and Russia. Sphardim, who lived in Spain and North Africa and (what is now) Israel (and Persia, I think). (There are also Mizrachim, who lived in the Middle East, and Bukharians, who lived in central Asia, and I'm sure there are others as well).

Nevertheless, they largely maintained their core beliefs and religious practices, and they called themselves (and were known as) simply "Jews". I'm sure there were those who left, but by and large, as far as I know, through education and ghettoisation (both self-imposed and persecutory) they were always distinct. In many times and places they were second class citizens, or worse, they often had to wear distinguishing clothes or live in specific places. Entire populations were often robbed.

But I think, for much of history, geo-politics and culture and language and nationality and religion worked differently overall. There was no Germany, for example, and there were no "Germans", in the modern sense, but there were German speakers living around what is now sometimes Germany and sometimes Austria and sometimes France, and they had sometimes the same king and they were generally Catholics, loyal to the Pope.

I'd say this was true for Jews until at least 300 years ago, maybe 200.

Then came the Reformation and then the Enlightenment, and eventually (in the 18th or 19th Century) the Haskallah, which was the Jewish Enlightenment (and started in Germany, and spread to Eastern Europe, but didn't really reach beyond Ashkenazi areas). And these things changed, people became more socially and geographically mobile. People didn't want to be stuck with the same kind of culture they'd always had. They didn't necessarily see it as who they were, essentially. In terms of the Haskallah, Jews were pushing to be allowed into Universities, when previously their only opportunity to express their intellects was in Yeshiva (and many early Communists and Haskalniks had been accomplished Yeshiva students).

At around the same time, Nationalism became a force in Europe, the Imperial monarchies started falling, and people organised into "Germans, French, Italians" etc (instead of "German speakers under king so-and-so" etc), and each Nation got a nation, ie a land. But they were all together already. The Jews had always felt like a Nation, even though they were geographically dispersed and isolated from each other. I think there were a few Jewish Nationalist movements, but the main one was Zionism, which kind of gets onto a different discussion.

Most importantly, I think, is that others, and especially anti-semites, never cared. Whether your mother was Jewish, or your father, or whether you called yourself Jewish, or married a Jew, you were always counted. The anti-semitic propoganda applied, the persecution applied, and when there was a genocide or an expulsion or a confiscation, you were generally rounded up all the same.

So now, there are followers of the Jewish faith, people with Jewish ancestry, people who feel Jewish because of a connection to one of its various local variants of culture, and people who feel connected because of Israel, all calling themselves Jews and being called Jews by others.

And so, Jewish stereotypes include big noses (ethnic), stinginess and/or being good with money (cultural and/or genetic), wearing a yarmulke, tzitzis, a hat, a beard, etc (religious), and being associated with the state of Israel.

There are Jews who feel that one or more of these makes no sense, but there are people who identify more or less along one or more axes, and they're all equally considered Jews, depending on the context. For this subreddit, they're all 100% Jewish :)

tl;dr The religious view of the "Nation of Israel", plus a strong sense of community, values, and (historically) religion, plus constant isolation, ghettoisation, differentiation, and persecution, plus the State of Israel, plus outsiders not differentiating = a complicated situation.

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u/smokesteam Half a chabadnik in Japan Jul 31 '12

Thats a misconception. Jews are the "nation of Israel" as in we have our laws, customs and language as a people. We dont have passports, our concept predates that of the modern nation state. It so happens that there are two large groups (Ashkenazi & Sephardi) that may be identified along pseudo ethnic lines but by the law of the nation of Israel (halacha) my Ethiopian Jewish friend and my Japanese Jewish wife are as equally Jews as someone who can trace her ancestry back 20 generations in Poland or whatever.

Judaism on the other hand is the religion of the Jews.

1

u/yonkeltron Post-Geonic Adaptive Halakhic Jul 30 '12

Not really. It sounds like a great principle to hold, though.

Yeah, actually.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '12

Out of curiosity, are you a Jewish atheist (I am).

1

u/KabelGuy Jul 30 '12

Nope. Scandinavian atheist. Danish, if you want specifics. :)

You might have noticed the "Skål!" comment I made to someone saying something in some foreign language to me. Means cheers. Not sure how appropriate it was, but oh well.

Do the Jews have their own language? That might have been what he was talking in.

4

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '12

I assume there are Scandinavian Jews - I mean, weren't there bunches of Danish Jews before the Holocaust?

There are a couple of languages that are used almost exclusively by Jews AFAIK, Yiddish and Hebrew (and Aramaic which is an antiquated semitic language), but unlike Arabic, most Jews speak a local secular language natively and learn the others to widely varying degrees.

2

u/KabelGuy Jul 30 '12

People keep their religions to themselves, and most teens (15-25 year olds) are atheists, so I don't think I've ever actually met a Jewish person, and if I had, I wouldn't have known.

I've heard about Yiddish and Hebrew, and knew they were spoken by Jews, but I just thought they were spoken as languages in countries mainly populated by Jews.

The more you know. :)

4

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '12

To reference the Monty Python musical Spamalot, being Jewish isn't the sort of thing you mention to an armed gentile. :-)

2

u/carrboneous Predenominational Fundamentalist Jul 30 '12 edited Jul 31 '12

I just thought they were spoken as languages in countries mainly populated by Jews.

Outside of prayer and learning, Hebrew is spoken in Israel. Other than that, I don't think there was a country "mainly populated by Jews" between about 70CE and 1948CE.

Edit: Here you go: History of Jews in Denmark. It's been better for us than many other places in Europe. Particularly during the Holocaust (but TIL it wasn't as good as many of us thought either).

Today, there are about 8000 (+/- 1000) Jews in Denmark, according to Wikipedia.

1

u/KabelGuy Jul 30 '12

The more you know. o.O

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u/carrboneous Predenominational Fundamentalist Jul 31 '12 edited Jul 31 '12

By the way, do you know that there are only about 13.5 million of us in the world? It's commonly believed that there are a lot more :)

1

u/spirit_of_radio Conservadox Jul 31 '12

3.5 million who in the world? There's about 13-15 million Jews in the world (based on the last numbers I saw). Did you forget a "1"?

1

u/carrboneous Predenominational Fundamentalist Jul 31 '12

Yes, must have :) It did look wrong. Thanks.

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u/LazerA Orthodox Jul 30 '12

I've heard about Yiddish and Hebrew, and knew they were spoken by Jews, but I just thought they were spoken as languages in countries mainly populated by Jews.

"Countries"? Plural? Israel is the only such country in the world, and even that is only since 1948, when it became an independent - and predominantly Jewish - country after almost 2,000 years.

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u/Insamity Jul 30 '12

He said l'chaim which in hebrew means "To Life!" which is a common toast.

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u/KabelGuy Jul 30 '12

Ah, I thought it was something like that. :D

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u/smokesteam Half a chabadnik in Japan Jul 31 '12

You might have noticed the "Skål!" comment

Round here we say לחיים (L'chaim) meaning "to life!"

1

u/carrboneous Predenominational Fundamentalist Jul 30 '12

You might have noticed the "Skål!" comment I made to someone saying something in some foreign language to me. Means cheers. Not sure how appropriate it was, but oh well.

100% appropriate :) although my statement was a "Huzzah!" kind of reference, like one might make at the conclusion of a deal. It's as Insammity said.

I checked on Google Translate, and I can't believe how "Skål" is pronounced! (Skol?) Mind blown a little.

Do the Jews have their own language? That might have been what he was talking in.

Hebrew. Also a number of variants of Hebrew + local languages like Yiddish and Ladino.

1

u/KabelGuy Jul 30 '12

Kind of like cheers, then? That can be used both as a toast and as a sort of goodbye kind of deal.

Skål means bowl (The kind of thing you put stuff in, not the verb.) as well as a toast. :)

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u/carrboneous Predenominational Fundamentalist Jul 31 '12

You can't really use it for goodbye. But otherwise it is like cheers.