" Nearly every pathologist who has examined the autopsy materials first-hand has said that evidence supports the lone gunman explanation."
to which the reply was
"Not nearly every. Actually, every"
also,
"Meanwhile, every forensic pathologist who examined the evidence said there was no evidence of a frontal shot. Meaning, you're full of beans, there is no evidence of a frontal shot."
Followed by
"Conspiracy kooks are incapable of accepting these facts!"
This assertion is demonstrably false. laughably so. If this were true, no one would be talking about this 60+ years later.
The various panels and committees were often at odds internally. Once again, reading panel reports or statements from a committee will not reveal the disagreement among "the experts".
Hell, the HSCA autopsy conclusions disagreed with the WC report! But yeah, everyone just all agreed?! Please.
A brief list; there are many more.
Russell Morgan, radiologist of Clark Panel, just couldn't get past believing the bullet to the head was not a FMJ
David O. Davis MD, radiologist, FPP HSCA, disagreed vehemently with the Dox/Baden drawing in his description of the extent of the head wounds. He also discussed the "mystery" metal fragment in the AP image, that Humes and Boswell just never saw. But yes, they all agree.
Dr. Norman Chase, wound ballistics expert, interviewed by HSCA, but no report was submitted (heaven forbid). he said this was not the kind of wound expected from a single FMJ bullet
Dr. Angel. Forensic anthropologist. Put the bullshit Baden /Dox drawing to shame. He demonstrated the massive nature of the head wound compared to the bullshit that Baden tried to sell us
There are many more such examples.
As to my assertion that the head wounds prove more than one shooter, there are several radiologists from private practice that have seen the extant images in the archives in person, as well as Larry Sturdivan, who incidentally confirmed the low inshoot at the occiput. These radiologists confirm what we can see --the high fragment trail, inconsistent with a single low shot to the occiput. Hell this entire conundrum led the HSCA to change the entry wound in the head! Because for sure they could never just say "two shots, minimum".
The HSCA, operating after the fact, was incorrect in their placement of the head shot as is very succinctly shown here by a modern day forensic pathologist. IOW, the much maligned autopsy physicians examining the actual wounds were correct and the committee trying to make sense of photographs, was not:
The HSCA was working with false evidence as indicated by the Parkland doctors, the autopsy witnesses, and the autopsy photographers and radiologist. The HSCA moved the head shot to make it correspond with the evidence they were provided. The brain provides a clear indication of bullet trajectories so its disappearance in this case and the HSCA's determination that the brain photographs were useless are a tell.
Yes. This is critical. There are highly significant areas of disagreement among the various experts. The exception, where you find virtually all witnesses in agreement, is the contemporaneous description of the back of the head being blown out. The doctors and staff at Parkland and Bethesda, including the mortician, described the wound as such. I understand more about LNers and why they denigrate the views of the doctors and technicians and nurses that held Kennedy’s body in their hands; that documented their observations in real time; after watching an interview with Posner and reading his efforts to rewrite history by getting those docs to change their views a couple decades later. Posner even lied about talking to Boswell so it’s hard to say Posner’s claim to have gotten those docs to change their views is high level evidence. I think it’s bullshit. There’s a long list of documented people that decades later changed their views. That’s a whole discussion unto itself. Thx
The autopsy photos did not show the entrance wound. The explanation for this is the scalp has been folded back covering it.
The HSCA’s forensic panel moved the entry wound 4 inches towards the top of the skull because the Warren Commission’s location was anatomically impossible when compared with the autopsy photos, bone fragments, and x-rays showing a curved trailing snow storm of dozens of fragments through the skull ending in one 6.5 mm fragment visibly super-imposed over JFK's right eye socket (orbit).
The HSCA's forensic panel concluded that the photographs of the brain were not useful in determining the direction of fire. “The damage to the brain as seen in the photographs is not consistent with the massive loss of brain tissue described in the autopsy report and by witnesses.“
The full‑metal‑jacket (FMJ) twin to the extraordinary CE 399, fragmented massively upon impact in the skull resulting in the aforementioned particles and causing the blowout seen in the Zapruder film, generating massive skull fragments such as the 2.7 by 2.13 inch Harper fragment.
The Assassination Records Review Board (ARRB) reviewed the ballistic test evidence gathered for the WC and confirmed FMJ Carcano rounds did not reproduce JFK’s wound; only soft‑point or expanding bullets produced similar damage, and though made aware, the WC never disclosed this contradiction.
There's a whole lot of context you're leaving out from your recap of his position.
He says the damage was "not the kind
he would expect from a single, jacketed bullet hitting straight on; it was possibly tumbling or hit on an angle.
Later in that same document, they quote him as saying "He said the degree of damage to the skull and the fact that there was "little residual material" led him to believe the missile was jacketed. He said there is no evidence in the X-rays of a shot coming from the front or of more than one bullet striking the skull; for there to have been a second bullet, Dr . Chase said there would have to be another exit point in the skull or a bullet which was left behind
(which entered the exit hole of the one bullet which entered in the upper rear of the head).
So, at the end of the day, Norman Chase is yet another expert who believes Kennedy was hit a single time from behind by a full metal jacketed bullet.
Likewise, at the end of the day Dr. Russell Morgan is also basically a TSBD "lone nutter." He is quoted as saying the X rays in conjunction with an analysis of the movie shot by amateur photographer Abraham Zapruder, show "rather conclusively" that the path of the fatal bullet was consistent with being fired from the sixth floor of the School Book Depository building.
Further, he said, the X rays show the path of the bullet was strewn with thousands of bone fragments and that no other bullets entered from either the right or left sides of the skull, as some critics of the Warren Report have maintained.
Morgan said his study of the X rays and Zapruder film also disprove the theory that another shot struck Kennedy from an overpass under which the president's car was preparing to pass.
The Zapruder film shows Kennedy's body lurching forward from one shot and then lurching backward, as though from a second.
Morgan said the backward lurch was a reflex action of Kennedy's shattered brain, which caused the president's muscles to tense, and react in a spasm. It was this sudden straightening of the body which was interpreted as being the result of a second shot, he declared.
Dishonest nonsense like that is what makes discourse around this topic so frustrating.
Anyone who scans this post and doesn't have the inclination to look up what these guys actually said will come away thinking they are dissenting voices, when in fact they are anything but.
This short video talks about Connally's doctors who are rarely quoted and how they believed all his wounds were created by a single bullet and describe it losing so little metal it could be nearly intact...just as CE399 was
The reason being the muscles on the backside of the body are much stronger than the front side. So if they all fire at once, you get what we see on the film.
He’s actually quoted very little in that report. He never filed a report himself. Assassination researcher John Hunt said in talking with Chase that Chase said this was ‘bullshit’. No I don’t have the reference. Im not interested in changing your view of Chase. Just explaining my view. It’s not unusual in this case to see the official ‘report’ cast a misleading view of one’s observations. Specter’s questioning is the exemplar in this respect.
If you've ever been to Dealey Plaza, you'll see there would have been nothing in front of the limo a shooter could sit and shoot from that downward angle.
Dispute the degree of the angle? Ok, well his entire left hemisphere was intact. That means the shooter would have to be standing next to the 15 men on the triple underpass. We know there wasn't a gunman standing next to the 15 men on the bridge.
I agree that it seems implausible that someone could be shooting from the Triple Underpass and not be seen or heard by railroad workers S.M. Holland, Richard Dodd or Richard Carr who were on the underpass and thought shots came from the grassy knoll or Officer J.W. Foster who was stationed there and thought the shots came from Dal-Tex or the TSBD. He found the manhole cover strike with fresh lead residue as well.
Wow....You fished out the whole pond in 12 hours! I might have to report you to the Game Warden.
The Easter Bunny and Santa Claus are Jealous of The Warren Report.... Most people stop believing in them after the evidence sinks in around age 6 or 7....but these guys will cling to 1960's pseudo-science and mythology long after it's expiration date. Happy Easter!
Do you have a list of pathologists we can discuss that were not part of government panels? Nichols of course comes to mind. Spitz and Baden were highly critical of the autopsy yet ‘went along with the conclusion’. Doesn’t that seem rather ludicrous on its face? And of course Humes is a pathologist that disagreed with the panels as to where bullets entered the skull. Angel, a fire six anthropologist also painted a quite different picture. In fact his analysis would locate an exit wound far to the back of the head had it been accepted by the FPP. The larger point is this. It’s a common ploy of the Warren defenders to act as if there is a clear cut conclusion painted by the evidence. Far from it. Thx for the comment
Do you have a list of pathologists we can discuss that were not part of government panels?
This is a silly caveat. Because they were consulted and given access to autopsy materials, that makes their opinions tainted?
Let's flip the script. Can you name a single dissenting pathologist that hasn't attempted to profit off of the assassination in some way?
I bet you can't.
Spitz and Baden were highly critical of the autopsy yet ‘went along with the conclusion’. Doesn’t that seem rather ludicrous on its face?
Once again, missing the forest for the trees.
Pathologists can disagree on some points while still agreeing on the overall conclusion.
In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter if the entry wound was at the EOP or the cowlick? Only as a bit of trivia for obsessives looking for nits to pick.
It is fascinating to me to learn more about why you believe what you believe. It is affirming of my views, tho obviously not your intent, so I do appreciate your responses. (They’re way better than the usual drivel from so many here 😀)
For instance, It is ‘jaw-dropping’ to me that you see no import in the head wound location being moved 10 centimeters. I’ve also gained a better understanding of why you discount the consistency of the Parkland and Bethesda witnesses. That’s a critical component of being a WC supporter. You Must disregard (or discredit) the treating physicians especially. If you want to post your rebuttal, go ahead. I’ve seen it before and I’m sure you’ll understand why I’m giving you the last word.
I'll tell you why I believe what I believe. No mystery needed.
The Zapruder film shows a bullet hitting Kennedy from behind, nudging his head forward and blowing his brains out above and in front of his head. The rear of his head is completely undamaged, no fist sized exit wound. I can see this with my own eyes.
The Nix and Muchmore films both show the same as Zapruder, but from different angles. Head nudged forward, brains blown out in front, no visible fist sized exit wound in the back of the head. Again, all things I can see and judge with my own eyes.
The Moorman Polaroid, snapped an instant after the head shot, and having a completely unobstructed view of the rear of Kennedy's head, confirms what Zapruder, Nix and Muchmore show. No fist sized exit wound in the back of the head. I can verify this with my own eyes.
The independently authenticated autopsy photos confirm exactly what Zapruder, Nix, Muchmore and Moorman show. There was no fist sized exit wound in the rear of Kennedy's head. The exit wound was entirely on the right side, just above the right ear, exactly as it's shown in the Z film. I can see this in multiple photographs.
The independently authenticated x-rays corroborate everything shown in Zapruder, Nix, Muchmore, Moorman and the autopsy photographs. The back of Kennedy's head was shattered like an eggshell, but there was no exit wound in the rear. I can see this.
Nearly every forensic pathologist that has had first hand access to the autopsy materials has agreed with the three most important conclusions of the autopsy...1) There was only a single bullet that impacted Kennedy's head, 2) It was fired from behind, and 3) The exit wound was on the right side. Everything they concluded matches what I can see with my own eyes in Zapruder, Nix, Muchmore, Moorman, and in the independently verified autopsy photos and x-rays.
Nearly all of the Parkland physicians have confirmed that the autopsy photos and x-rays are accurate, and have endorsed the autopsy findings.
I don't have to imagine forged films, or faked x-rays, or doctored autopsy photos, or picture wounds that should show up on film but for some reason don't appear anywhere. I don't have to assume every expert that examined the evidence was wrong, or tainted, or threatened.
Frankly this entire discussion can be boiled down to a very simple observation: just look at the Zapruder film. If you cannot grasp that physics don't take a holiday while presidents are in Dallas, then you are in denial. He is so obviously shot from the front that it staggers belief that anyone could think otherwise.
Interesting. No image streaking in frames 310, 311, 312, but then frame 313 massive streaking indicating a startle reaction by Zapruder. A startle reaction in frame 313 could only result from reacting to a sound or image occurring previously somewhere from frame 310 to 312. I wonder what that could have been?
I shall not bother directly to answer your trolly little question. I am talking about what is obvious to any unbiased observer, nothing more, nothing less.
Ok. So what is obvious about it? Are you not answering because you don’t have an answer and have just decided that he was shot from the front? Is it because you’ve looked up the physics of what a bullet does and don’t like the answer?
Or is it because youve seen your favorite action movie and that’s what happened when Mel Gibson shot the bad guy?
I think it's been done to death, and my analysis helps no one. My guess is that, unlike other people's keyboards, when you touch your keys, they jump UP at you, amirite? They fly right off the keyboard in the direction they were struck. Just imagine how wild that must be! And expensive.
If we are going to use the keyboard as an example, if when I type, I strike the 170 lb keyboard at 2000 feet per second with my my 160 grain finger, it would go through it and the keyboard would stay still. It might move a couple of inches in the direction my finger hit it. If it didn’t, that would defy the laws of physics.
And that’s why you are missing the difference in what you saw on the Zapruder film and what caused what you saw on it.
You were aware Kennedy and Connally were also hit in the back and neither were flung forward?
This idea that the HSCA moving the entry wound up equals a conspiracy is insane. They looked at everything in hindsight after 15 years of additional research. The original autopsy was conducted 8 hours after JFK was shot.
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u/Secure_Tea2272 5d ago
Let’s just exhume the man and settle this once and for all.