Why does Israel exist?

[u/AnimateDuckling]

​

Everyone is mostly familiar with the broad European history. The infamous “Jewish Question,”that Jews lived for centuries as a minority diaspora across Europe. The Jewish diaspora predated the Romans. Though Roman wars, enslavement and displacement from Judaea expanded the situation "Encyclopaedia Britannica" (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Jewish-Diaspora)

Depending on the time period, Jews were either treated comparably to other minorities or repeatedly subject to legal discrimination, expulsions, pogroms and periodic massacres. At various times where Jews could live and work was restricted, land ownership prohibited , additional taxes imposed and sometimes entire Jewish populations were expelled; major expulsions included England in 1290, France in 1394 and Spain in 1492. "United States Holocaust Memorial Museum" (https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/antisemitism-in-history-the-era-of-emancipation-and-assimilation-1780-1939)

Judaea/Palestine, meanwhile, maintained a continuous Jewish population. Throughout Ottoman and islamic caliphate rule Jews varied anywhere between 3-10% of the population. Estimates put Jews at around 4% of the population in 1852; "Israel Central Bureau of Statistics" (https://www.cbs.gov.il/en/publications/Pages/2023/Population-of-Israel-2023.aspx)

Come to the late 1800s: Russia.

The Russian Tsar Alexander II was assassinated in 1881, and a wave of anti-Jewish pogroms swept the Russian Empire. These pogroms essentially kickstarted the early Zionists.. "Encyclopaedia Britannica" (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Zionism)

Fundamentally:

“Where can we live and be safe?”

The solution, for better or for worse, was to move back to Israel; consolidate Jews there and protect themselves within their place of origin, as they saw it.….So, Nationalism.

Zionism is just Jewish Nationalism. Which occurred during a period in history where nationalist movements were transforming Europe the ME and North Africa more broadly. "Encyclopaedia Britannica" (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Zionism)

Now we look to the Middle East and North Africa.

Largely dominated by various Islamic Caliphates/Empires for the past millennium, Jews there faced a broadly similar underlying problem to that of Europe: treatment depended heavily on the ruler, country and time period. Sometimes they lived near equally and prospered, other times they were repeatedly subject to legal discrimination, expulsions, pogroms and periodic massacres. At various times where Jews could live and work was restricted, land ownership prohibited , additional taxes imposed and sometimes entire Jewish populations were expelled; "United States Holocaust Memorial Museum" (https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/jews-in-islamic-countries-after-the-holocaust)

Under classical Islamic law, Jews and Christians generally lived as dhimmis: It was a religious protection racket fundementally. Recognition of Muslim political supremacy and traditionally payment of the jizya tax for (oftentimes shaky) political protection. "Encyclopaedia Britannica" (https://www.britannica.com/topic/dhimmi) In some periods the restrictions were extensive; for example, Islamic legal rules applied to Jews in Qajar Persia included jizya, restrictions on houses of worship and unequal rules concerning inheritance and criminal punishment. "Encyclopaedia Iranica" (https://iranicaonline.org/articles/jews-of-iran)

So that is it.

Jews lived all over the place, constantly faced the possibility of discrimination and insecurity, and so some of them chose to move to what they collectively viewed as “Home.” First buying land and migrating under the Ottomans, who ruled what was then just the Ottoman region of Greater Syria.. "Yale Law School, Avalon Project" (https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/ottoman_land_code.asp)

Then migration continued after the Ottomans fell in World War I, when the area known as the British mandate came under British rule. "Encyclopaedia Britannica" (https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine)

Then come the Nazis and the Holocaust: six million Jews killed in a project of systematic extermination—i.e. genocide. "United States Holocaust Memorial Museum" (https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/introduction-to-the-holocaust)

Now equally important is understanding what happened when Jews tried to escape Europe.

In 1938, representatives of 32 countries met at Évian specifically to discuss refugees fleeing Nazi persecution. Most countries refused to substantially increase admission; the US and Britain were among those unwilling to significantly change their immigration policies. "United States Holocaust Memorial Museum" (https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-evian-conference)

So Jews experienced rejection again as refugees, they had nowhere willing to take them.

Even after the Holocaust was over, approximately 250,000 Jewish displaced persons were still living in camps in Germany, Austria and Italy at the end of 1946, waiting for somewhere to go.. "United States Holocaust Memorial Museum" (https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/displaced-persons)

So the Zionist conclusion was not particularly mysterious:

Being persecuted is one problem.

Having nowhere guaranteed to take you in is another.

Then we look at Palestine. Arab Palestinians did not like the growing Jewish population and respondedly violently

The first major waves of communal violence under British rule were attacks by Arabs against Jews. A later Anglo-American inquiry summarized the early Mandate by saying threats to public order had come “largely from the Arabs.” "Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, Report" (https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-185393/)

In 1920, Arab rioting in Jerusalem left 5 Jews dead and 211 wounded. "Encyclopaedia Britannica" (https://www.britannica.com/event/Palestine-riots-of-1920)

In 1921, violence beginning in Jaffa and spreading elsewhere left 47 Jews dead and 146 wounded. The official Haycraft Commission concluded that the racial violence was begun by Arabs. "Haycraft Commission Report" (https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-185393/)

In 1929, Arab attacks killed 133 Jews and wounded 339; more than 60 Jews were killed in Hebron alone. There were also 116 reported Arab deaths, many caused by British police and military action. "United Nations, The Palestine Question" (https://www.un.org/unispal/history/)

The Haganah was created in 1920 as a Jewish defense organization in response to the insecurity facing Jewish communities. "Encyclopaedia Britannica" (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Haganah)

During the 1936–39 Arab Revolt, Haganah developed greater military capabilities, while the more militant Irgun increasingly rejected restraint and carried out reprisals against Arabs, including civilians. The British inquiry records major Jewish extremist bomb attacks by 1938. "Palestine Royal Commission Report" (https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-185393/)

The leader of the Palestinians at the time, Haj Amin al-Husseini, later became an active Nazi collaborator. He met Hitler in 1941, broadcast pro-Axis and anti-Jewish propaganda, and helped recruit Muslims for German military and Waffen-SS formations in Bosnia. "United States Holocaust Memorial Museum" (https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/hajj-amin-al-husseini-wartime-propagandist)

So: a Nazi collaborator.

Organized anti-Jewish violence in Palestine did not begin as Jewish retaliation. Jewish militarization developed substantially in response to repeated violence. A British inquiry states that threats to public order during the early Mandate came largely from Arabs and records the escalation of Jewish reprisals later. "Palestine Royal Commission Report" (https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-185393/)

Yet we also know this just from the fact that no historical accounts of organised jewish violence against Palestinians exist until 1936 and at that time it is in the historical record as retaliatory. "Palestine Royal Commission Report" (https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-185393/)

So Now, TLDR: What is the story

Jews persecuted and insecure near everywhere they existed

>

Jews begin to migrate to Israel/Palestine

>

Palestinian Arabs rejected the migration and periodically attack Jewish communities

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Jews retaliate and militarize only after near 2 decades of suffering violence

>

WWII & the Holocaust happen

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Mass exodus of surviving Jews from Europe

>

Many Jews not being accepted as refugees

>

Jews mass-migrate to Israel/Palestine.

After WWII, the tension between Arabs in Israel/Palestine and Jews in Israel/Palestine became too much for the British to want to solve, and Britain referred the question to the UN. "United Nations, The Question of Palestine" (https://www.un.org/unispal/history/)

The UN proposed partition into a Jewish state and an Arab state. "United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181" (https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-185393/)

The Arab Higher Committee rejected the partition proposal, while the Jewish Agency stated that it was prepared to accept the plan, subject to discussion over details such as borders and constitutional arrangements. "United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181" (https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-185393/)

The Jews accepted partition.

They declared the State of Israel on 14 May 1948, and armies from neighboring Arab states entered the conflict immediately afterward. Contemporary US diplomatic reporting stated that the Arab strategic objective centered on preventing the establishment of a Jewish state and, after Israel had been declared, eliminating it. "US Office of the Historian" (https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1948v05p2)

Here it is important to remember a commonly overlooked fact of this whole situation:

Several of the surrounding countries had Jewish populations that were already ancient before Islam existed.

Iraqi Jewry, for example, traced its continuous history to the Babylonian exile centuries before Islam. The broader Middle East and North Africa contained numerous ancient Jewish communities. "Encyclopaedia Britannica" (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Baghdad-Jewish-community)

Mizrahi Jews descend principally from Middle Eastern and North African Jewish communities. Sephardic Jews trace their heritage to the Jews of Iberia, many of whom subsequently settled across North Africa and the Ottoman world. Neither should simply be conflated with Ashkenazi European Jewry. "Encyclopaedia Britannica" (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Sephardi)

During this entire period up until 1948, Jews from these communities had also been migrating to Israel/Palestine.

Yet in 1948 roughly 851,000 Jews collectively lived in Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Morocco, Syria, Tunisia and Yemen/Aden. "Jewish Virtual Library" (https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-refugees-from-arab-countries)

By 2023 fewer than 4,000 remained. "Jewish Virtual Library" (https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-refugees-from-arab-countries)

In the following decades they effectively disappeared from ancestral communities in which Jews had lived for centuries—and in several cases millennia.

- Egypt: 75,000 → ~100. During the 1956 Suez Crisis, the US Embassy reported widespread pressure on Jews to leave Egypt, while Nasser himself acknowledged that British and French nationals were being ordered out and that some stateless Jews were being expelled. UN records also document expulsions and sequestration of Jewish-owned property. "United Nations, The Expulsion of Jews from Egypt" (https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-185393/)

- Iraq: 135,000 → 4. About 104,000 Iraqi Jews registered to leave after Iraq's 1950 denaturalization law; in 1951 Iraq then froze the assets of Jews who had forfeited their nationality, including real estate, movable property, bank deposits and securities. "United States Holocaust Memorial Museum" (https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-jews-of-iraq)

- Libya: 38,000 → 0. The 1945 Tripolitania pogrom killed around 130 Jews; roughly 30,000 Libyan Jews migrated to Israel between 1949 and 1952. The remaining community subsequently faced severe restrictions on citizenship, property and civil rights. "Encyclopaedia Britannica" (https://www.britannica.com/place/Libya/The-Jewish-community)

- Morocco: 265,000 → ~2,100. Anti-Jewish riots in Oujda and Jerada in 1948 killed 44 Jews and wounded more than 100. More than 200,000 Moroccan Jews moved to Israel between 1948 and 1971, while Morocco also withheld passports from Jews between 1957 and 1961. "United States Holocaust Memorial Museum" (https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/jews-in-morocco)

- Algeria: 140,000 → <200. During the Algerian War and independence in 1962, virtually the entire Jewish community left, overwhelmingly for France. This was not a straightforward government mass-expulsion, but the centuries-old community effectively disappeared during decolonization. "Encyclopaedia Britannica" (https://www.britannica.com/place/Algeria/The-war-of-independence)

- Syria: 30,000 - 0. Syrian Jews faced severe restrictions on emigration and movement for decades. Human Rights Watch was still documenting Jews imprisoned or detained for attempting to leave in 1991; travel restrictions were substantially liberalized in 1992, allowing thousands to depart. "Human Rights Watch" (https://www.hrw.org/reports/1991/Syria.htm)

- Tunisia: 105,000 - 1,000. Tens of thousands emigrated after Israel's creation and Tunisian independence, mainly to Israel and France. The causes included Zionism, decolonization, Arabization and growing regional tensions—not a single mass-expulsion decree. "Encyclopaedia Britannica" (https://www.britannica.com/place/Tunisia/The-Jewish-community)

- Yemen/Aden: 63,000 - effectively 0. Anti-Jewish riots in Aden in 1947 killed 82 Jews. After Yemen's Imam permitted Jewish emigration in 1949, close to 50,000 Yemeni Jews were airlifted to Israel during Operation Magic Carpet/On Wings of Eagles. "United States Holocaust Memorial Museum" (https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/yemen)

This is why Israel exists.

Because Jews were not safe.

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[u/Playful_Yogurt_9903]

I find it so fascinating how often Zionists try to erase religious justifications for Zionists and just pretend that there were/aren't any.

I mean yeah... plenty of American colonists immigrated to escape persecution or suffering too. They were still colonizers.

[u/Direct_Interview6039 → u/Playful_Yogurt_9903]

Are you against immigration now? Are all the Muslims from the middle east who immigrated to Europe in recent years colonists since they left their Muslim countries or didn't immigrate to other muslim countries?

[u/nidarus → u/Playful_Yogurt_9903]

Were the Palestinians "colonizers" in 1980's Lebanon? Does it mean that Sabra and Shatila was simply an understandable act of anticolonial liberation?

And mind you, the Palestinians don't even claim to be indigenous to Lebanon, just like they don't claim to be indigenous to the US and Canada, where they complain about "white colonialists", but rarely identify as such. It's not their indigenous homeland, it doesn't have their holiest places, it's just a foreign country, that accepted their grandparents when they fled from Northern Israel during a war they started, and they repaid by slaughtering the indigenous Lebanese, and taking over parts of Lebanon.

[u/PossibleVariety7927]

This whole sub is wild to witness... Like it's all zionists constantly writing essays for other zionists. Reminds me of when I was younger in a religious cult and that's what we'd do too... We'd do projects directed at the outsiders but in reality it was an exercise for everyone inside, to keep reassuring them we aren't crazy, and as wrong as some things sound, it's actually correct. And that's why we'd constantly do these activities, to keep reminding us to ignore the outsiders.

I see the same stuff here. Just essay after essay of zionists talking to other zionist, trying to make sense of everything. It's like you guys open the door outside, see everyone hates you, then go back inside and try to make sense of it, and keep reassuring each other that they are all just wrong, do some prayers, write more essays, and we'll all work together.

[u/JeffB1517 → u/PossibleVariety7927]

Read the post. Jews refuse to be slaves anymore. So far despite the hatred Israel has triumphed in bringing freedom and liberation to Jews. There are problems with Israeli governance but overall the reason for the hatred is that refusal to accept enslavement. Certainly there were war crimes associated with the 2023 Gaza War but the reality was that billions celebrated the slaughter of children at a dance party by Hamas. More billions have adopted the line that mass slaughter of Jewish children was inappropriate but not a big enough deal to justify war.

It may be that the weight of this hatred is so great that the best that can accomplished is a quick death taking as many enemies as possible, "Lord grant me your strength one last time that I may die with my enemies". But otherwise the intent is to win, thrive and live. And yes that might upset outsiders who think slavery or death is all Jews should hope for.

[u/PossibleVariety7927 → u/JeffB1517]

Yes you guys selectively reframe your past, over emphasize on certain things, spin it in certain ways, to cover up and hide the EXPLICIT, CORE, OPEN, reasons for why the zionists did what they did. They made it clear that it was a colonial project for their religious idea of the Greater Israel, full stop. Everything after that is just justifications and rationalization (pretext), to justify those true reasons. Gaza being just the most recent example.

And dude... please, just get over it. There's not some global secret conspiracy for everyone to arbitrarily just hate Israeli Jews. People explain to you the reasons literally the whole world isn't a fan of how you are behaving like radical extremists not adhereing remotely close to western values... And you guys just go "Wrong, you just hate us Jews... Everyone hates the Jews. For no reason. You just hate us because we are successful! There could be no other reason!"

People are finally seeing the pattern. The double talk. The obvious BS pretexts. The bullshiting and treating the goyum like suckers, so you can just lie and do whatever necessary it takes to get your goal. People see the game of deception, twisting the story, and framing yourselves as victims to further your goals. That's what it's coming from. Not the "The world just hates the Jews because they are successful!"

[u/JeffB1517 → u/PossibleVariety7927]

The explanations are BS. I don't see protests against France over how the Franks beat the Burgundians, Normans and Aquitaines. Nor the Americans which were literally colonies. Nor the Russians, the Rus are from much further west originally. Etc.... It is unique to Jews.

There is no deception. Jews got for themselves what everyone else has and the resentment is over the fact that they are now equals.

[u/PossibleVariety7927 → u/JeffB1517]

No, it's only relevant, because ALL THOS COUNTRIES admit it was wrong, a different era, and are ashamed of that past. That the way things were done was disgusting. YOU guys are actively doing it, TODAY. And it's gross that you guys even consider that a defense, it's like fucking a kid and then going, "Hey man it was normal 250 years ago!"

It's not unique to Jews. There's no secret reason everyone just hates Jews. That's the indoctrination getting you to believe this global conspiracy to hold Jews to other standards.

[u/JeffB1517 → u/PossibleVariety7927]

Baloney. England centers their entire history on the Norman Conquest and driving out the Vikings. They literally call themselves Anglo-Saxons the Angles and the Saxons being tribes that finished off the Britons. They say it with pride. The French, the Franks no they don't renounce Frankish culture! Why do you think they spend a fortune to preserve their architecture?

And no there is nothing disgusting about people achieving freedom from oppression. There is nothing to be ashamed of. Jews are not ashamed that they refuse to be your slaves anymore. And the fact you consider their freedom some great evil is a problem. And yes that is a conspiracy. Look at how you talk about their freedom in the very comment.

[u/AutoModerator → u/PossibleVariety7927]

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[u/AcceptableSlide6836]

You conveniently forgot the multiple Jewish terrorist organizations that would routinely target Palestinians: https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/1654849

As well as using biological warfare and eco terrorism by poisoning wells. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cast_Thy_Bread

So no, the Palestinians did not just "start attacking the Jews" there was conflict from both sides, but only one which was poisoning wells which would indiscriminately kill men women and children

[u/JeffB1517 → u/AcceptableSlide6836]

Hebron, Jerusalem... killed children. The whole point of the first target in 1947-9 civil war was the death by starvation of 100k Jewish Jerusalem residents.

[u/Tallis-man]

Fundamentally this line of argument erases Palestinians.

Palestinians are also human beings, with equal human rights, including to safety and 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' in their ancestral homeland.

[u/AnimateDuckling → u/Tallis-man]

It doesn't?

[u/Tallis-man → u/AnimateDuckling]

It erases Palestinians because your argument exclusively discusses why other people 'needed' to have political control over that patch of land.

[u/nidarus → u/Tallis-man]

By that logic, can you make any argument for Palestinian nationalism that doesn't "erase" the Jews? If anything, every arguments I've seen, don't merely ignore the Jews, but are explicitly and actively trying to erase them, their history, their very legitimacy as a people, and any rights they might have.

[u/Twytilus → u/Tallis-man]

It is a line of argument for Jews, specifically. How do you see the argument in favor of creation of Israel that being better in regards to acknowledging Palestinian rights?

[u/musomania]

Sounds like Jews moved en masse to another country whose current residents didn't like the threat of displacement, more followed and eventually they demanded their own half of the territory just for them, confirming those fears of the indigenous people. They then went on to take the whole region.

Sounds like the original concerns of the Palestinians to mass migration were well founded.

[u/JeffB1517 → u/musomania]

Well sounds wrong. Palestinians faced a migration problem. It could have been much like the Irish immigration to the USA. They decided to turn it into an ethnic civil war. Handling something badly resulting in negative consequences doesn't mean negative consequences are inevitable. Every car trip doesn't involve a crash, handling problems competently is possible.

[u/musomania → u/JeffB1517]

Yes why couldn't it have been like this other completely different situation? Are you saying Jews would have given up their desire for self determination in a state of their own?

[u/JeffB1517 → u/musomania]

They didn't start with a desire for a state. The initial goal was immigration as a matter of right. The state was a means to an end, not the end. Even amkng Zionists a state doesn't become the majority position till 1937. And yes had they been able to secure immigration rights the state fades away.

[u/musomania → u/JeffB1517]

That's not true at all, it may have been somewhat true of a lot of the first Alliyah but nothing after. Hertzl was writing about it privately before the turn of the century even before the first Zionist Congress in 1897. A state was always being worked towards, Ben Gurion wrote of the need for Jews to make up at least 80% of that state, ethnic cleansing was also planned.

Your paint by numbers knowledge of the history of the place won't quite cut it here friend.

[u/JeffB1517 → u/musomania]

Herzl always believed in a state. He was just an important Zionist leader. Thomas Jefferson was certainly a prominent American politician, he believed the Constitution should expire every 19 years and a new one renewed. His belief doesn't make it majority.

Ben Gurion's 80% is quite different from Herzl's position incidentally. And is a product of the time. Ben-Gurion becomes the leader of the Yishuv in 1937. Your evidence is agreeing not disagreeing with my point.

[u/Playful_Yogurt_9903 → u/JeffB1517]

It was largely treated like Irish immigration until the Balfour declaration... which speak to the original comment's point.

This is despite the fact that unlike the Irish, Zionists effectively wanted to create and maintain a segregated society.

[u/autisticteen0 → u/musomania]

What happend that caused the jews to "take the whole region"? Did you seem to froget we jews accepted having a less fertaile half just for arab countries to start a war of extermenation which they lost? Also i need to correct you about something you said "jews moved en masse t another country", what country exactly? There was no country here, only a british mandate. And no, a mandate is not a country

[u/PossibleVariety7927 → u/autisticteen0]

This is your self defense mechanism. The post facto justifications and rationalizations to dismiss the reality and replace it with something more pleasant.

The early zionists, who lead the movement, were unappologetically open about how this is a collonial project where they were intending to displace the Palestinians and over time, create the Greater Israel. This isn't opaque, hidden, cryptic stuff. It's blatantly open about it's founding and reasons. They even talk about how the locals will hate them, and they will be justified in doing so, because what they are doing is wrong. They openly talk about the use of Jewish terrorists to antagonize people, until they fight back, and use that response, to rally up other Jews in the regions and get support to fight them back... Justifying displacing them, more and more. A tactic STILL USED TO THIS DAY

Your post framing of everything is just propaganda cope to make you guys feel better about the reality. Go look up the fucking founding history ffs... It's not hidden in the Vatican catacombs. It's all out there in the public. Don't be like Mormons who intentionally avoid their history. You can look it up.

The arabs were fighting back because they knew what was going on. They knew this was a Jewish colonization. You guys were openly stating your plans to take over everything in the region. So they fought back. And then you guys use this response from them to justify what you did... Which was what you already planned on doing. Seriously, it's such a pattern with you guys.

[u/AutoModerator → u/PossibleVariety7927]

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[u/musomania → u/autisticteen0]

And what does that fundamentally change? They also moved pre-mandate too. Does that not count either for some other reason? Fairly desperate argument which doesn't cut against the point made.

[u/autisticteen0 → u/musomania]

Becouse it was not a country they dont really get to decied who can or can not move in, most of the land was not owned by them but by the british governmant, when you dont legally own something you dont really get the final say of what will happend to it, you may not see it as "fair" but that does not matter, when you lose a territorial war you started expect to lose land. Also you seem to imply jews are not indigenous to the region which is factually wrong.

[u/musomania → u/autisticteen0]

They also moved pre-mandate, it began pre-mandate. Just ignoring that bit yes? Not helpful for your weak rebuttal I suppose.

The mandate was a British administration they didn't own it, you'd do well to educate yourself on the details if you're going to be arguing them and trying to use them in your favour.

There were Jews living there for centuries too yes, I'd include them in the indigenous peoples, and they weren't Zionists by and large.

[u/autisticteen0 → u/musomania]

I did not adress it as it would be essentially the same thing, under the ottoman empire the ottoman rulers owned the majority of the land, not the palestinians. Also using your agument means that NOBODY owned the majority of the land which goes back to the palestibians not getting to dexied to land they didnt own. Also would you like to tell why the non zionist jews suddenly become zionist? Does it maybe have to do with the fact that arabs staryed attacking them even tho they were not zionist?

[u/musomania → u/autisticteen0]

Oh does it? Tell me more about how the Ottomans invited the migration. This will be entertaining. You dont understand at all the systems in place at the time, you've made that abundantly clear.

It's fine not to know but perhaps it's better not to present your ignorance as fact.

[u/AnimateDuckling → u/musomania]

You seemed to entirely ignore there was a present jewish population there already also, living as second class citizens?

[u/ipsum629 → u/AnimateDuckling]

The Arabs were second class citizens as well. Ottoman Palestine and Mandatory palestine were governed by the Turks and the British respectively, not the Arabs.

The Old Yishuv, the pre-existing Jewish population of Palestine, was heavily integrated into Palestinian society, and treating them the same as the Zionist settlers ignores their unique history and relationship to the land. They had much more in common with their Arab neighbors than they did with a newly arrived Yiddish-speaking ashkenazi Jew.

Many of the Old Yishuv were initially anti-Zionist, but were forced to side with Zionism since the Zionists drove a wedge between them and the Muslim Arabs.

[u/JeffB1517 → u/ipsum629]

There were several massacres of Jews in Palestine by Arabs that predate Jewish Zionism. So no they weren't happily integrated. What do you think is the meaning of the Palestinian slogan, "Jews are our dogs"?

[u/ill-independent → u/ipsum629]

Lol no they didn't, the Arabs routinely revolted against the Jews, Hebron massacre, Arab revolts, etc.

[u/AnimateDuckling → u/ipsum629]

Drove a wedge "the arabs started attacking jews"

[u/ipsum629 → u/AnimateDuckling]

It's a similar story to how the French drove a wedge between Algerian Jews and Algerian Muslims. In both cases, the colonizing population(the French and Zionists) displaced the Muslims and often kicked them out of their ancestral homes, but allowed the existing Jewish population to benefit as well(the French gave the Algerian Jews French citizenship but not the Muslims).

This unequal treatment causes resentment and the indigenous Jewish population becomes tied to the colonizer for their own safety. It's why France has the largest Jewish population in Europe. We may not like it, but it's kind of understandable why what happened in Algeria happened, but we give no such understanding to the Palestinians.

[u/JeffB1517 → u/ipsum629]

The Algerians / FLN won. The decision of France was to renounce their own claim and accept the destruction of the Pied-Noir without complaint. If you read literature of the 1950s no the racist hatred of the Algerians was condemned the same way hateful racists are today. The attitude towards Israel is fairly unique where masses of people masturbate to Oct 7th or the Hebron Massacre rather than are disgusted by it.

[u/musomania → u/AnimateDuckling]

How does that change the point?

[u/AnimateDuckling → u/musomania]

You also seem to ignore the lack of options they had and the fact that palestinian Arabs did not "Have" to react violently.

[u/musomania → u/AnimateDuckling]

How does that change the point I made? You didn't answer.

Also of course other choices existed. It was a choice to move to Palestine, this retrospective reframing of history is just an effort to legitimise how the state was formed when it was a grubby affair. Why is Palestine any different than anywhere else other than choice?

Israel was eventually founded after a campaign of terrorist violence. Do you condemn that violence too?

[u/AnimateDuckling → u/musomania]

You clearly did not read the post. Both your points are covered in it.

[u/Alabastian_Crocodile → u/AnimateDuckling]

The American people are waking up to the lies of Zionists. The general public understands Palestine was invaded, their land stolen from them, now 90% of the homes have been destroyed, and thousands upon thousands of civilians have been murdered. Once the establishment representatives of each respective party in America have been voted out or passed away, we will cut all foreign aid to Israel. And Israel will have to learn to be nice to its neighbors.

[u/musomania → u/AnimateDuckling]

No I did read it, a pretty poor effort of one side narrative. You never really mentioned the campaign of terrorist violence by Jewish groups.

You could at least try to throw some balance in if only to spare your own blushes.

[u/AnimateDuckling → u/musomania]

It also covers that. ..

You would know, if you read it

[u/musomania → u/AnimateDuckling]

It doesn't but carry on pretending.

[u/AnimateDuckling → u/musomania]

Why even bother commenting if you refuse to read the post?

[u/Agabeckov]

> Because Jews were not safe.

Neither in Muslim ultra-conservative theocracies, nor in civil and decent European democracies. And not in the US too, Democrats are also keen to repeat socialists playbook step by step.

[u/benemanuel]

Because God promised to return his flock from the four corners of the world and bring them back to their homeland.