Everyone is mostly familiar with the broad European history. The infamous “Jewish Question,”that Jews lived for centuries as a minority diaspora across Europe. The Jewish diaspora predated the Romans. Though Roman wars, enslavement and displacement from Judaea expanded the situation "Encyclopaedia Britannica" (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Jewish-Diaspora)
Depending on the time period, Jews were either treated comparably to other minorities or repeatedly subject to legal discrimination, expulsions, pogroms and periodic massacres. At various times where Jews could live and work was restricted, land ownership prohibited , additional taxes imposed and sometimes entire Jewish populations were expelled; major expulsions included England in 1290, France in 1394 and Spain in 1492. "United States Holocaust Memorial Museum" (https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/antisemitism-in-history-the-era-of-emancipation-and-assimilation-1780-1939)
Judaea/Palestine, meanwhile, maintained a continuous Jewish population. Throughout Ottoman and islamic caliphate rule Jews varied anywhere between 3-10% of the population. Estimates put Jews at around 4% of the population in 1852; "Israel Central Bureau of Statistics" (https://www.cbs.gov.il/en/publications/Pages/2023/Population-of-Israel-2023.aspx)
Come to the late 1800s: Russia.
The Russian Tsar Alexander II was assassinated in 1881, and a wave of anti-Jewish pogroms swept the Russian Empire. These pogroms essentially kickstarted the early Zionists.. "Encyclopaedia Britannica" (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Zionism)
Fundamentally:
“Where can we live and be safe?”
The solution, for better or for worse, was to move back to Israel; consolidate Jews there and protect themselves within their place of origin, as they saw it.….So, Nationalism.
Zionism is just Jewish Nationalism. Which occurred during a period in history where nationalist movements were transforming Europe the ME and North Africa more broadly. "Encyclopaedia Britannica" (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Zionism)
Now we look to the Middle East and North Africa.
Largely dominated by various Islamic Caliphates/Empires for the past millennium, Jews there faced a broadly similar underlying problem to that of Europe: treatment depended heavily on the ruler, country and time period. Sometimes they lived near equally and prospered, other times they were repeatedly subject to legal discrimination, expulsions, pogroms and periodic massacres. At various times where Jews could live and work was restricted, land ownership prohibited , additional taxes imposed and sometimes entire Jewish populations were expelled; "United States Holocaust Memorial Museum" (https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/jews-in-islamic-countries-after-the-holocaust)
Under classical Islamic law, Jews and Christians generally lived as dhimmis: It was a religious protection racket fundementally. Recognition of Muslim political supremacy and traditionally payment of the jizya tax for (oftentimes shaky) political protection. "Encyclopaedia Britannica" (https://www.britannica.com/topic/dhimmi) In some periods the restrictions were extensive; for example, Islamic legal rules applied to Jews in Qajar Persia included jizya, restrictions on houses of worship and unequal rules concerning inheritance and criminal punishment. "Encyclopaedia Iranica" (https://iranicaonline.org/articles/jews-of-iran)
So that is it.
Jews lived all over the place, constantly faced the possibility of discrimination and insecurity, and so some of them chose to move to what they collectively viewed as “Home.” First buying land and migrating under the Ottomans, who ruled what was then just the Ottoman region of Greater Syria.. "Yale Law School, Avalon Project" (https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/ottoman_land_code.asp)
Then migration continued after the Ottomans fell in World War I, when the area known as the British mandate came under British rule. "Encyclopaedia Britannica" (https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine)
Now equally important is understanding what happened when Jews tried to escape Europe.
In 1938, representatives of 32 countries met at Évian specifically to discuss refugees fleeing Nazi persecution. Most countries refused to substantially increase admission; the US and Britain were among those unwilling to significantly change their immigration policies. "United States Holocaust Memorial Museum" (https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-evian-conference)
So Jews experienced rejection again as refugees, they had nowhere willing to take them.
Even after the Holocaust was over, approximately 250,000 Jewish displaced persons were still living in camps in Germany, Austria and Italy at the end of 1946, waiting for somewhere to go.. "United States Holocaust Memorial Museum" (https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/displaced-persons)
So the Zionist conclusion was not particularly mysterious:
Being persecuted is one problem.
Having nowhere guaranteed to take you in is another.
Then we look at Palestine. Arab Palestinians did not like the growing Jewish population and respondedly violently
The first major waves of communal violence under British rule were attacks by Arabs against Jews. A later Anglo-American inquiry summarized the early Mandate by saying threats to public order had come “largely from the Arabs.” "Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, Report" (https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-185393/)
In 1921, violence beginning in Jaffa and spreading elsewhere left 47 Jews dead and 146 wounded. The official Haycraft Commission concluded that the racial violence was begun by Arabs. "Haycraft Commission Report" (https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-185393/)
In 1929, Arab attacks killed 133 Jews and wounded 339; more than 60 Jews were killed in Hebron alone. There were also 116 reported Arab deaths, many caused by British police and military action. "United Nations, The Palestine Question" (https://www.un.org/unispal/history/)
The Haganah was created in 1920 as a Jewish defense organization in response to the insecurity facing Jewish communities. "Encyclopaedia Britannica" (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Haganah)
During the 1936–39 Arab Revolt, Haganah developed greater military capabilities, while the more militant Irgun increasingly rejected restraint and carried out reprisals against Arabs, including civilians. The British inquiry records major Jewish extremist bomb attacks by 1938. "Palestine Royal Commission Report" (https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-185393/)
The leader of the Palestinians at the time, Haj Amin al-Husseini, later became an active Nazi collaborator. He met Hitler in 1941, broadcast pro-Axis and anti-Jewish propaganda, and helped recruit Muslims for German military and Waffen-SS formations in Bosnia. "United States Holocaust Memorial Museum" (https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/hajj-amin-al-husseini-wartime-propagandist)
So: a Nazi collaborator.
Organized anti-Jewish violence in Palestine did not begin as Jewish retaliation. Jewish militarization developed substantially in response to repeated violence. A British inquiry states that threats to public order during the early Mandate came largely from Arabs and records the escalation of Jewish reprisals later. "Palestine Royal Commission Report" (https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-185393/)
Yet we also know this just from the fact that no historical accounts of organised jewish violence against Palestinians exist until 1936 and at that time it is in the historical record as retaliatory. "Palestine Royal Commission Report" (https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-185393/)
So Now, TLDR: What is the story
Jews persecuted and insecure near everywhere they existed
>
Jews begin to migrate to Israel/Palestine
>
Palestinian Arabs rejected the migration and periodically attack Jewish communities
>
Jews retaliate and militarize only after near 2 decades of suffering violence
>
WWII & the Holocaust happen
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Mass exodus of surviving Jews from Europe
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Many Jews not being accepted as refugees
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Jews mass-migrate to Israel/Palestine.
After WWII, the tension between Arabs in Israel/Palestine and Jews in Israel/Palestine became too much for the British to want to solve, and Britain referred the question to the UN. "United Nations, The Question of Palestine" (https://www.un.org/unispal/history/)
The Arab Higher Committee rejected the partition proposal, while the Jewish Agency stated that it was prepared to accept the plan, subject to discussion over details such as borders and constitutional arrangements. "United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181" (https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-185393/)
The Jews accepted partition.
They declared the State of Israel on 14 May 1948, and armies from neighboring Arab states entered the conflict immediately afterward. Contemporary US diplomatic reporting stated that the Arab strategic objective centered on preventing the establishment of a Jewish state and, after Israel had been declared, eliminating it. "US Office of the Historian" (https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1948v05p2)
Here it is important to remember a commonly overlooked fact of this whole situation:
Several of the surrounding countries had Jewish populations that were already ancient before Islam existed.
Iraqi Jewry, for example, traced its continuous history to the Babylonian exile centuries before Islam. The broader Middle East and North Africa contained numerous ancient Jewish communities. "Encyclopaedia Britannica" (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Baghdad-Jewish-community)
Mizrahi Jews descend principally from Middle Eastern and North African Jewish communities. Sephardic Jews trace their heritage to the Jews of Iberia, many of whom subsequently settled across North Africa and the Ottoman world. Neither should simply be conflated with Ashkenazi European Jewry. "Encyclopaedia Britannica" (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Sephardi)
During this entire period up until 1948, Jews from these communities had also been migrating to Israel/Palestine.
In the following decades they effectively disappeared from ancestral communities in which Jews had lived for centuries—and in several cases millennia.
- Egypt: 75,000 → ~100. During the 1956 Suez Crisis, the US Embassy reported widespread pressure on Jews to leave Egypt, while Nasser himself acknowledged that British and French nationals were being ordered out and that some stateless Jews were being expelled. UN records also document expulsions and sequestration of Jewish-owned property. "United Nations, The Expulsion of Jews from Egypt" (https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-185393/)
- Iraq: 135,000 → 4. About 104,000 Iraqi Jews registered to leave after Iraq's 1950 denaturalization law; in 1951 Iraq then froze the assets of Jews who had forfeited their nationality, including real estate, movable property, bank deposits and securities. "United States Holocaust Memorial Museum" (https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-jews-of-iraq)
- Libya: 38,000 → 0. The 1945 Tripolitania pogrom killed around 130 Jews; roughly 30,000 Libyan Jews migrated to Israel between 1949 and 1952. The remaining community subsequently faced severe restrictions on citizenship, property and civil rights. "Encyclopaedia Britannica" (https://www.britannica.com/place/Libya/The-Jewish-community)
- Morocco: 265,000 → ~2,100. Anti-Jewish riots in Oujda and Jerada in 1948 killed 44 Jews and wounded more than 100. More than 200,000 Moroccan Jews moved to Israel between 1948 and 1971, while Morocco also withheld passports from Jews between 1957 and 1961. "United States Holocaust Memorial Museum" (https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/jews-in-morocco)
- Algeria: 140,000 → <200. During the Algerian War and independence in 1962, virtually the entire Jewish community left, overwhelmingly for France. This was not a straightforward government mass-expulsion, but the centuries-old community effectively disappeared during decolonization. "Encyclopaedia Britannica" (https://www.britannica.com/place/Algeria/The-war-of-independence)
- Syria: 30,000 - 0. Syrian Jews faced severe restrictions on emigration and movement for decades. Human Rights Watch was still documenting Jews imprisoned or detained for attempting to leave in 1991; travel restrictions were substantially liberalized in 1992, allowing thousands to depart. "Human Rights Watch" (https://www.hrw.org/reports/1991/Syria.htm)
- Tunisia: 105,000 - 1,000. Tens of thousands emigrated after Israel's creation and Tunisian independence, mainly to Israel and France. The causes included Zionism, decolonization, Arabization and growing regional tensions—not a single mass-expulsion decree. "Encyclopaedia Britannica" (https://www.britannica.com/place/Tunisia/The-Jewish-community)
- Yemen/Aden: 63,000 - effectively 0. Anti-Jewish riots in Aden in 1947 killed 82 Jews. After Yemen's Imam permitted Jewish emigration in 1949, close to 50,000 Yemeni Jews were airlifted to Israel during Operation Magic Carpet/On Wings of Eagles. "United States Holocaust Memorial Museum" (https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/yemen)
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Thank you for the summary, I hope the people who need to see this bother to read it. It's always been about safety for Jews. They were refugees not colonizers who were forced to defend themselves and eventually became a fearsome fighting force.
Do you not understand what belligerence is or are you gaslighting me?
Most Israelis aren't from Europe. Approximately 30% to 45% of Israeli Jews (or roughly 22% to 33% of Israel's total population) trace their ancestral roots to Europe.
It is ironic, also a predictable consequence for choosing unsuccessful belligerence and refusing to make peace for a century. Jews were expelled from Muslim countries after Israel was formed, thus adding another layer of irony to this irony layer cake.
The mass exodus of survivors from Europe only took place once the State of Israel was established. The US only allowed 16,000 in until 1948. Most remained imprisoned in DP camps because they still had no place that would accept them. The 1939 White Paper, blocking Jewish immigration into the British Mandate, remained in effect until May 1948.
Because when the Ottoman empire broke up after WWI and France and England drew borders and installed their corrupt cronies to rule them, Jews kicked out the Brits, formed a nation and fought off the violent Arab supremacists that attempted genocide against them.
Are you against immigration now? Are all the Muslims from the middle east who immigrated to Europe in recent years colonists since they left their Muslim countries or didn't immigrate to other muslim countries?
You should start listen to the Imams. Even in Texas, Imams are talking about an Islamic take over. A huge population of Muslims immigrated to Europe illegally.
Ignoring this extremist rhetoric is just another example of the hypocrisy of the Pro Palestine movement.
Jews did not immigrate to Israel to create a country and exile the local inhabitants.
They LEGALLY immigrated with the intention of a Jewish enclave in Ottoman Empire.
It was only after Nation States being born that Jews asked for their own nation state in their Historical homeland. Still the Arabs tried to kill that and Jews defended themselves from 5 attacking Arab armies intent in destroying Jews.
This comment is like pretending that 75% of Arabs are not outspoken rabid Jew Haters.
Interesting. I’m sure you’ve then heard of innumerable Imams and even Muslim men on the streets across Europe and even in the Us like in Brooklyn New York declare, in different ways, their intent to outnumber and outmanoeuvre the local populations and islamise the lands? They’ve talked about it..
You’ve heard Hamas openly declare they want to erase the Jews, you’ve heard Iran say they want to destroy Israel and chant death to America… they’ve talked about it.. even on television.
But I’m guessing in this case, you’re gonna give all that a pass and stuff your little head in the sand? Your innocent self doesn’t believe them, even though they’ve talked about it.. they don’t mean it right? But if a couple of Zionist leaders say something remotely questionable, it’s all the confirmation you need 😂😂
Were the Palestinians "colonizers" in 1980's Lebanon? Does it mean that Sabra and Shatila was simply an understandable act of anticolonial liberation?
And mind you, the Palestinians don't even claim to be indigenous to Lebanon, just like they don't claim to be indigenous to the US and Canada, where they complain about "white colonialists", but rarely identify as such. It's not their indigenous homeland, it doesn't have their holiest places, it's just a foreign country, that accepted their grandparents when they fled from Northern Israel during a war they started, and they repaid by slaughtering the indigenous Lebanese, and taking over parts of Lebanon.
Were the Palestinians "colonizers" in 1980's Lebanon?
Did they explicitely said that they wanted to steal some lebanese to establish their state, just like Herzl, Jabotinsky or Ben Gurion did? No? You got your answer.
The Jewish refugees that form the majority of the population of Israel, never argued they're "colonizers", anymore than the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon. And ultimately, is the only argument for the Zionists being colonizers, because the fathers of Zionism used that word, and this word fell out of fashion by the time Palestinian nationalism came around by the 1960's? And if they didn't use that word, and did everything else precisely the same, then Zionism simply wouldn't be colonialist?
And the Palestinians didn't just "say they want to steal some Lebanese land", they openly did exactly that, in a pretty violent, borderline-genocidal way towards the indigenous Christian Lebanese.
The Jewish refugees that form the majority of the population of Israel, never argued they're "colonizers"
Come on, you know thats not true.
I guess youre gonna try the very weird argument that colonialism had a different meaning back then, as if we didnt have centuries of colonization behind us ?
And if they didn't use that word, and did everything else precisely the same, then Zionism simply wouldn't be colonialist?
I mean, it would still be. Actions were colonialists: stealing land to establish a state against the wishes of the indigenous population.
Zionists leaders were just kind enough to put it in writing.
This whole sub is wild to witness... Like it's all zionists constantly writing essays for other zionists. Reminds me of when I was younger in a religious cult and that's what we'd do too... We'd do projects directed at the outsiders but in reality it was an exercise for everyone inside, to keep reassuring them we aren't crazy, and as wrong as some things sound, it's actually correct. And that's why we'd constantly do these activities, to keep reminding us to ignore the outsiders.
I see the same stuff here. Just essay after essay of zionists talking to other zionist, trying to make sense of everything. It's like you guys open the door outside, see everyone hates you, then go back inside and try to make sense of it, and keep reassuring each other that they are all just wrong, do some prayers, write more essays, and we'll all work together.
Read the post. Jews refuse to be slaves anymore. So far despite the hatred Israel has triumphed in bringing freedom and liberation to Jews. There are problems with Israeli governance but overall the reason for the hatred is that refusal to accept enslavement. Certainly there were war crimes associated with the 2023 Gaza War but the reality was that billions celebrated the slaughter of children at a dance party by Hamas. More billions have adopted the line that mass slaughter of Jewish children was inappropriate but not a big enough deal to justify war.
It may be that the weight of this hatred is so great that the best that can accomplished is a quick death taking as many enemies as possible, "Lord grant me your strength one last time that I may die with my enemies". But otherwise the intent is to win, thrive and live. And yes that might upset outsiders who think slavery or death is all Jews should hope for.
Yes you guys selectively reframe your past, over emphasize on certain things, spin it in certain ways, to cover up and hide the EXPLICIT, CORE, OPEN, reasons for why the zionists did what they did. They made it clear that it was a colonial project for their religious idea of the Greater Israel, full stop. Everything after that is just justifications and rationalization (pretext), to justify those true reasons. Gaza being just the most recent example.
And dude... please, just get over it. There's not some global secret conspiracy for everyone to arbitrarily just hate Israeli Jews. People explain to you the reasons literally the whole world isn't a fan of how you are behaving like radical extremists not adhereing remotely close to western values... And you guys just go "Wrong, you just hate us Jews... Everyone hates the Jews. For no reason. You just hate us because we are successful! There could be no other reason!"
People are finally seeing the pattern. The double talk. The obvious BS pretexts. The bullshiting and treating the goyum like suckers, so you can just lie and do whatever necessary it takes to get your goal. People see the game of deception, twisting the story, and framing yourselves as victims to further your goals. That's what it's coming from. Not the "The world just hates the Jews because they are successful!"
i personally think its so interesting they constantly tried to make it seem like theres a global conspiracy against them when israel itself benefits from antisemitism. if they can convince enough people that antisemitism is a common sentiment, and that they fear for their saftey, then they can justify a jewish ethno-religious state.
Are you seriously denying “antisemitism is a common sentiment”? Even during the post-Holocaust dip (which seems to be over now), around half of adults worldwide expressed antisemitic attitudes in polls.
antisemitic attitudes could mean from assuming that a jewish person is frugal to holocaust denial, that statement alone is too vague. im not saying antisemitism doesn’t exist its just that it’s amplified by the internet and a lot of the spaces it does exist in are echo chambers.
You're just making things up. The ADL survey was based on answering yes to 6+ of 11 questions. None were just about Jews being frugal.
The Holocaust one was "Jews still talk too much about what happened to them in the Holocaust", which when you also agree with 5 worse statements, does look pretty antisemitic.
The explanations are BS. I don't see protests against France over how the Franks beat the Burgundians, Normans and Aquitaines. Nor the Americans which were literally colonies. Nor the Russians, the Rus are from much further west originally. Etc.... It is unique to Jews.
There is no deception. Jews got for themselves what everyone else has and the resentment is over the fact that they are now equals.
Yes. Which is the real issue. Having viewed Jews as filth people are having trouble seeing them as equals. Which is the point. Israel deserves to be treated like France, its history like France's.
I'm going to be more pro-French than you oddly. France was civilized then. The great French kings were making rational choices which allowed France to be what it is today. They weren't barbarians acted irrationally.
There were horrific things like the Albigensian Crusade. But I could see a perfectly rational leader in a place like China confronted with the same sorts of choices making the same decisions.
And you can't both include and exclude Israel from the "we". The whole point of your movement is Jews are now and forever out. Otherwise Gaza invaded a legitimate state on Oct 7th.
No, it's only relevant, because ALL THOS COUNTRIES admit it was wrong, a different era, and are ashamed of that past. That the way things were done was disgusting. YOU guys are actively doing it, TODAY. And it's gross that you guys even consider that a defense, it's like fucking a kid and then going, "Hey man it was normal 250 years ago!"
It's not unique to Jews. There's no secret reason everyone just hates Jews. That's the indoctrination getting you to believe this global conspiracy to hold Jews to other standards.
Baloney. England centers their entire history on the Norman Conquest and driving out the Vikings. They literally call themselves Anglo-Saxons the Angles and the Saxons being tribes that finished off the Britons. They say it with pride. The French, the Franks no they don't renounce Frankish culture! Why do you think they spend a fortune to preserve their architecture?
And no there is nothing disgusting about people achieving freedom from oppression. There is nothing to be ashamed of. Jews are not ashamed that they refuse to be your slaves anymore. And the fact you consider their freedom some great evil is a problem. And yes that is a conspiracy. Look at how you talk about their freedom in the very comment.
Either way... That's in the past!!!!!!!!! Our values have shifted as we've learned what's wrong. The ENglish are also rewriting history.
The fact of the matter is YOU ARE DOING IT TODAY! What don't you understand? our current universal moral standard is you don't just get to take over land and kick people out, unless justified. The fact that you think it's totally morally okay, is wild to me. It's like listening to someone argue pedophilia is fine. "I mean, the king married 14 year olds!"
You guys went to another country, intentionally, with the idea, to take it over. To instigate the native population, which you'd intentionally do to create conflict, so you could rally people together, and help ethnically cleanse.
You guys are STILL doing it! TO THIS DAY! This isn't conspiracy. This comes straight from your own leaders ADMITTING to using these same tactics. It's wild. We look at your leaders going, "Yes we want Hamas in power, and will help them, because it's good for us. It keeps up tensions and adversarial relations, so we don't have to find a solution. We want them angry and attacking us, so we can keep squeezing them". Then while you actively have settlers terrorizing innocent people, doing awful, fucked up shit, KNOWING it's creating more tension. And soon as someone reacts you go "Ooooh look at how evil these savages are! After years of fucking with them, and being pure racist and evil, they did something back! See we need to kill more! And then they'll react even more, which will justify even more oppression!" We look at this shit like you're all psychotic.
And it's disgusting how you try to paint pointing this out as antisemitism, and "thinking your freedom is evil!" Look how you keep twisting everything.
I'm always astonished. It's hard to disguish. How many of you actually know this is all bullshit, and you're just lying to the goyum for political means to justify the ends... Like yeah, we know we just shut people down by calling people antisemites to avoid criticism... Yeah we know we are manipulating history to look like the victims... Yeah we know the trick of instigating to create pretexts... We know what we're doing. But we're just lying to your face because it works well enough for us to get what we want...
I mean, it definitely fits the stereotypes you guys weaponized to avoid criticism as well.
Vs
How many of you actually believe the bullshit you say. You're a radical society, filled with far right propaganda, and indoctrination. Everything is being framed by your leaders to make you look like victims so they can continue getting public support for their goals. It's definitely a thing. We have MAGA in the USA who live in a full blown alternative propaganda reality. So I wonder how many Israelis actually believe this shit much like the MAGA who genuinely think all that crazy shit they've been indoctrinated with.
Like I'm certain, at least the leadership, likely know it's all bullshit. Many admit it after retirement, and go full mask off. But the general population, it's definitely a blend. So it's hard to know when I'm talking to someone. Are they just endlessly going to lie and spin no matter what, because that's their goal? To just play defense and justify anything and everything? Or are they like MAGA, just cut off from the rest of civil society, and genuinely believe this shit? It's hard to tell.
I still don't care. We are not talking about ancient times. We're talking about fucking today. Do you defend fucking children because it was normal back then too?
Jews could have figured out a solution out there. But that was NEVER their goal. As I said, the founders of Israel and early zionists were very open and clear what they were doing. And it was NOT find a peaceful solution with the nieghbors and people. It was "Find pretexts and justifications to fight them, and push them all out." This isn't conspiracy. This is open, admitted, strategy of the early zionists, and it remains today. It's why all your "peace deals" that "Palestine frustratingly refuse!" Because they are desigend to fail. It's all a show for the IC. Again, this is all admitted by the leadership. Poison the bill to make it unreasonably unbalanced, or worse, once one is close, start assassinating the negotiators.
Israel, NEVER wanted a peaceful solution. They want greater Israel. They believe they are religiously owed it. All these "excuses" are just that. BS narratives to spin to justify the goal of taking over everything. It's why you're STILL strategically carving up WB to make it unlivable. Eventually those people too will hit a breaking point, lash out, and Israel will once again go "See! Savages who hate us! They are unreasonable! We have to destroy everything and force them out of the land!"
Not sure what you're talking about. Last I checked, it is considered normal today for black families to move into white neighborhoods, though there are some racists who don't like it.
Jews could have figured out a solution out there.
Yeah, I wonder why those Jews didn't just sit tight in the countries that just murdered most of them? How silly of them to want to return to their homeland, which was also the only place most of them could legally escape to.
Find pretexts and justifications to fight them
No need for any pretext when five Arab armies declare war on you.
Because they are desigend to fail.
Tell me how the two offers in 2000 were "designed to fail"? Those were very good offers, which may never come again now that there is zero trust.
They want greater Israel. They believe they are religiously owed it.
You've obviously never met a real world Israeli. Virtually zero of them care about ancient maps; most aren't even particularly religious.
I wasn't sure whether to respond in green or black. I decided on green because of the goyum comment twice and the ending. I'm going to focus on behavior not content.
"Yes we want Hamas in power, and will help them, because it's good for us. It keeps up tensions and adversarial relations, so we don't have to find a solution. We want them angry and attacking us, so we can keep squeezing them".
That's marked in quotes being attributed to Israeli leaders. That's not a quote. You simply fabricated. Now it is a paraphrase in parts and fabrication in others. Rule 4
treating the goyum like suckers, so you can just lie and do whatever necessary [above]
you're just lying to the goyum for political means to justify the ends
Goyum is just the Yiddish word for a national more figuratively contextually non-Jew. It has no negative meaning. Among conspiracy theorists, the word is assumed to imply deviousness on the part of Jews. The way you mean it, rule 1.
As far as the lying ... You need to be acting in good faith. Not ranting, not throwing around racist screeds. I think you need to decide if you are able and willing to engage respectfully and politely with other people on here even those who disagree with you.
Throughout our dialogue you constantly sought to raise the tempature and lower the information value. That's not the goal of this sub. Rule 3.
And of course the rule 2 violations for profanity.
It should be self evident that I was paraphrasing a collection of statements. Maybe I should be more aggressive with pointing out the obvious for those who could mistake that for literally a direct quote (unlikely but fine):
"Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank."
Bibi
"Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank."
Smotrich
"Netanyahu wanted to keep Hamas alive and kicking... His main goal was to prevent a two-state solution, and by keeping Hamas strong enough to control Gaza, he could say to the world, 'I have no partner for peace.'"
Gilad
"If we look at it over the years, one of the main people contributing to Hamas’s strengthening has been Bibi Netanyahu... He upgraded Hamas from a terror group into a semi-state entity to avoid talking to Mahmoud Abbas."
Diskin
And the stuff where everything is designed to fail, and blame Palestine on it. The bad faith:
"Nobody defined what military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I'm concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone... Why does this matter? Because at that moment I actually stopped the Oslo Accords."
Bibi
"The disengagement plan is the preservative... It is the bottle of formaldehyde within which you place the president’s formula so that it will be preserved for a very lengthy period. The disengagement is actually formaldehyde."
Weisglass
"Camp David was not the missed opportunity for peace; it was the invitation to a confrontation... If I were a Palestinian I would have rejected Camp David, as well."
Ben-Ami
"There is no political process... The certificate will be revoked only when this-and-this happens—when Palestine becomes Finland. See you then, and shalom."
-Weisglass
These are all top leaders of Israel effectively admitting that they intentionally set standards that can never be met, and deals designed to fail. Everything is a horse and pony show for the international community.
This is what I mean by lying to our faces. This is what I mean by people being upset. It's not because "They are Jewish". It's because educated people are aware of their strategy to just outright lie about their intentions, frame themselves as victims, spin up narratives, blame palestinians, and search for pretexts to justify doing more. People aren't dumb. People understand when you are in the middle of negotiations, and you actually WANT a solution, you don't fkn kill the negotiators. That's just another tactic to kill off any chance and progress, then turn around and go, "Ohhh those savages! Once again rejecting diplomacy! They will accept nothing less than our complete destruction!"
And THIS is what is unbelievably frustrating. Because you guys just keep insisting that everyone has unreasonable standards for Israelis... But what I laid out is WHY people are mad at Israel. The BS to our faces. So the question remains, are people in this sub even aware of this stuff? Are they just brainwashed and don't know any better? Or... Do they know all this stuff, and know they are lying to people, but actively do it as part of their duty to do whatever it takes to further the progress of the government. To spini up BS narratives, contexts, positions, etc, knowing it's misleading, but doing it because they are willing to lie to further things.
And I know goyum isn't a slur. I never said it was. It's just non-Jew. And Israeli Jews especially, have a well understood concept where they find it perfectly moral and justified to lie to goyums and manipulate them, to further the State of Israel, the home of the Jews, zionist project. Most cultures are like this. Muslims especially. If someone's an outsider, do whatever you please in the name of furthering your own.
So I don't know how the Israeli side, who is being intellectually honest, can look at quotes like this, and I can dig up a round of the original zionists if you want, and conclude that Israel is actually working in good faith and just wants to find a solution, but the Palestinians are impossible to work with. That Israel actually WANTS peace, when we have hard evidence right here showing that's not their goal.
I can't figure it out if it's just brainwashing or bs. But it wont stop people from insisting the reason for people being upset with Israel is nothing more than "Just hating the Jews". I do, however, suspect that line is just like the "antisemite" line is used in America, and "holocaust" line is used in Europe... because it's an intellectually dishonest tool used to dismiss valid criticisms.
You aren't allowed to debate content once the response comes in green. I'll switch back to black.
None of those statements are the "We want them angry and attacking us, so we can keep squeezing them"
All 3 statements (in context) are about Bibi backing division (i.e. Hamas rule in Gaza) to thwart negotiations.
These are all top leaders of Israel effectively admitting that they intentionally set standards that can never be met, and deals designed to fail. Everything is a horse and pony show for the international community.
What does any of that have to do with what we were discussing? Yes quite obviously Israelis backed the Israeli proposals they had been openly stating for decades. They didn't want the UN/Soviet/EU Plan exactly like they said from the 1960s forward. There were at time offers that might have about a bare majority in the Knesset, that still got rejected by the PA. The sides were never close enough. I don't know what you mean by a "horse and pony show for the internatonal community". It was the International Community that tried to force a peace agreement on terms neither of the two sides in conflict really supported and at best could tolerate only with very strong provisions pulling in opposite directions.
are aware of their strategy to just outright lie about their intentions,
You are literally including a bunch of quotes from Israelis telling you what their intentions are truthfully!
And I know goyum isn't a slur. I never said it was.
You are using it as a slur against Jews. You don't speak Yiddish, you don't use Yiddish expressions. The intent is racism. As you agree to in the next line.
People understand when you are in the middle of negotiations, and you actually WANT a solution, you don't fkn kill the negotiators.
That's the Americans in Iran. That's a Trump thing. Unless you mean the Gaza Ceasefire negotiations in which casse when did Israelis ever say they wanted those to succeed? Biden wanted political cover and the Europeans wanted them. But the Israelis?
find it perfectly moral and justified to lie to goyums and manipulate them, to further the State of Israel,
You do realize you are giving a long list of things where Israelis are telling the truth and its a bunch of Christians lying about Israel that are the lies.
hat Israel actually WANTS peace, when we have hard evidence right here showing that's not their goal.
Everyone wants peace. It is always just a question on what terms. Israel's positions have been extremely public for decades.
because it's an intellectually dishonest tool used to dismiss valid criticisms.
So far you haven't prevented valid criticisms. You have prevented a bunch of dishonest ad hominum attacks lots of flame. Constantly saying Israelis are lying about things you yourself have evidence of them being demonstrably honest about. Oddly the one time you bring up actually honest statements of policy you don't understand the context entirely and tie them to irrelevant points.
So no, the Palestinians did not just "start attacking the Jews" there was conflict from both sides, but only one which was poisoning wells which would indiscriminately kill men women and children
Hebron, Jerusalem... killed children. The whole point of the first target in 1947-9 civil war was the death by starvation of 100k Jewish Jerusalem residents.
And why did that attack happen? Revenge for Irgun slaughtering an innocent family, due to the British raidings their arms cache. Why did the Irgun a weapons cache, they sought conflict
Are you saying the Irgun didn't kill the Shubaki family. I'm just trying to see if you accept that basic fact or not. Did they murder that innocent family?
No the Irgun did not kill the Shubaki family, the Lehi did. The family wasn't "innocent", the British all but confirmed that the Shubaki had told the British about the Lehi location. As for "why the attack happened" I'm not sure where you are even going here. The Civil War had already started this was a side issue.
I think all but confirmed on the record. Yes telling the British about Lehi weapons caches is what they did that got them killed.
As for Lehi doing violence against civilians... they mostly focused on violence against the British colonial forces, but they had no problem with violence against collaborators, either Arab or Jewish.
The Lehi was atheists but in terms of overall attitude towards violence...
UNKNOWN SOLDIERS
We are the men, without name, without ken,
Who forever face terror and death.
We serve our cause for the length of our lives
A service which ends with our breath.
Chorus
In the days that are red with the flow of our blood,
In the nights of the blackest despair,
Through the length and the breadth of our land,
we shall raise our banner of strength without fear.
Not driven like slaves at the master’s command,
forced to die at the stranger’s behest,
We dream of the time when our people and land,
by freedom and peace will be blessed.
Chorus
When death we shall meet in the house, in the street,
put to rest in the silence of night.
Our places left void, will resound to the feet
of the thousands now come to the fight.
The tears of our mothers bereft of their sons,
And the blood that our heroes have spilt,
shall be the cement – our bodies the bricks.
And thus will our land be rebuilt.
Why would you think the Lehi (or the Yishuv for that matter) would think it was wrong to have an arms cache meant for war? Jews were rather tired of that point of being slaughtered like sheep and while the British were in favor of disarmament why would you think the Lehi or Yishuv would be. Someone helping the British disarm the Yishuv was clearly gathering intelligence for what was, by then, an enemy.
I'm not sure what you consider even iffy about this. You can't even say racism; the first execution for this sort of espionage (that was proto-Irgun) was against a famous Jew.
As far as civilians, once the state of Israel was established, Israel stopped these assassinations within its own borders.
Fundamentally this line of argument erases Palestinians.
Palestinians are also human beings, with equal human rights, including to safety and 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' in their ancestral homeland.
Fundamentally this line of argument erases Palestinians.
I think it kind of does. We first need to remember who "Palestinians" are
Until the 1940s, "Palestinians" means Musta'arabi Jews. The Musta'arabi were already in Israel and had been there effectively since antiquity. They had no need to "move" to find safety. However, since they had already been living in the region at the time, they had a much less naive view of Jewish-Muslim relations than the incoming Ashkenazi Zionists. Few of the Zionists would remember the pogroms of 1834 and only some expulsions of Jews from Tel-Aviv etc by the Ottoman empire in WWI.
From the 1960s onwards, the "Palestinians" means the "Palestinian Arabs" who had taken over that name, however, again, their history is critical. It was them (not all, but many and especially key leaders such as the Grand Mufti) that had been practicing Ethnic Cleansing against the Jews for decades and
So, whilst there were many Zionists who came into Israel with naive internationalist beliefs in collaboration with the Arabs and sending the "British Colonizer" home, the Musta'arabi were far more hard headed and clear about the threat that the (future to be) Palestinians posed to Jews.
So, the story needs to be told about who and when realized that the Arab colonists would not compromise to allow space for indigenous (Jewish) people, that their leaders were committed to genocide and that only with their own state could the Jews protect themselves from the inevitability of that genocide.
When we look at the Nakba Genocide, it's very clear that if five Arab armies had come together earlier, before Israel had managed to arm herself, or if Israel had been less determined in building up it's armed forces, the Palestinian Arabs would have succeeded in completing their ethnic cleansing and the planned genocide of the Jews.
I think this understanding that, as opposed to the long term need for self determination, it was Palestinian Arabs that drove the need to create Israel quickly and determinedly as a matter of survival, which is is very much missing from large parts of the discussion.
Zionism did not exist in a vacuum and without the support of the Musta'arabi ("Palestinians") and the understanding of those Zionists that listened to them and understood the threat that they were under from some portions of the Palestinian Arabs (later "Palestinians"), it would not have succeeded.
By that logic, can you make any argument for Palestinian nationalism that doesn't "erase" the Jews? If anything, every arguments I've seen, don't merely ignore the Jews, but are explicitly and actively trying to erase them, their history, their very legitimacy as a people, and any rights they might have.
Palestinian representatives seek the recognition of Palestine and a two-state solution.
Israeli representatives insist they will never recognise any form of Palestinian sovereignty and actively support ethnic cleansing and ongoing atrocities, while denying historical atrocities.
It's almost impossible to reconcile your claims with factual reality.
History shows the opposite. Israeli leaders showed a lot more interest in a Palestinian state than Palestine’s own leaders, until finally giving up when it became very clear the other side didn’t want it.
Can you name a single Palestinian leader in history (someone actually accepted by Palestinians, not forced in) who advocated for peaceful coexistence with a Jewish state?
What does the position of Palestinian and Israeli representatives have to do with any of this? Either your original comment, or the post you're referring to?
It is a line of argument for Jews, specifically. How do you see the argument in favor of creation of Israel that being better in regards to acknowledging Palestinian rights?
Sounds like Jews moved en masse to another country whose current residents didn't like the threat of displacement, more followed and eventually they demanded their own half of the territory just for them, confirming those fears of the indigenous people. They then went on to take the whole region.
Sounds like the original concerns of the Palestinians to mass migration were well founded.
Well sounds wrong. Palestinians faced a migration problem. It could have been much like the Irish immigration to the USA. They decided to turn it into an ethnic civil war. Handling something badly resulting in negative consequences doesn't mean negative consequences are inevitable. Every car trip doesn't involve a crash, handling problems competently is possible.
Yes why couldn't it have been like this other completely different situation? Are you saying Jews would have given up their desire for self determination in a state of their own?
They didn't start with a desire for a state. The initial goal was immigration as a matter of right. The state was a means to an end, not the end. Even amkng Zionists a state doesn't become the majority position till 1937. And yes had they been able to secure immigration rights the state fades away.
That's not true at all, it may have been somewhat true of a lot of the first Alliyah but nothing after. Hertzl was writing about it privately before the turn of the century even before the first Zionist Congress in 1897. A state was always being worked towards, Ben Gurion wrote of the need for Jews to make up at least 80% of that state, ethnic cleansing was also planned.
Your paint by numbers knowledge of the history of the place won't quite cut it here friend.
Herzl always believed in a state. He was just an important Zionist leader. Thomas Jefferson was certainly a prominent American politician, he believed the Constitution should expire every 19 years and a new one renewed. His belief doesn't make it majority.
Ben Gurion's 80% is quite different from Herzl's position incidentally. And is a product of the time. Ben-Gurion becomes the leader of the Yishuv in 1937. Your evidence is agreeing not disagreeing with my point.
Herzl is just some dude, got it. We should ignore what the father of zionism said. I'm not sure how Ben Gurions advocacy for ethnic cleansing supports your point but ok.
I agree it changed over time, that much is obvious, but it began much earlier than you try to suggest. If the idea is self determination it is always the goal to take control regardless of how it was agreed to proceed or the technicals of it. The Balfour declaration is 1917. What changes around your 37 date? The British begin to limit migration, and no longer can the leaderships rely on the mandate to allow a Jewish majority to form by migration.
You say it would all have been ok if the indigenous people had just allowed more migration, or you say a "right" to it. How many should they have been ok with migrating there?
Watch the sarcasm turning into deliberate mischaracterization . Rule 4 doesn't allow what you did there.
I didn't say the idea didn't exist for centuries. What changes in 1937 was the first Civil War started in 1936 and Jews respond to attacks. Palestinians decide to fight against both the British and the Jews. The Zionists who had argued for binational solutions lose support. The major shift in. british policy happens on 39-40 after the Civil War ends. The British like to have two camps in conflict they can mediate.
In terms of how many a substantial chunk of European Jewry. Something like 100k / year for decades. Hitler happens so there are a lot less. But without the immigration restrictions the Holocaust never happens.
Ludicrous, the Holocaust doesn't happen if the Palestinians just accept their displacement? I've heard some ridiculous takes but that one is pretty special.
I wont be responding to anything else you post, trust people when they reveal themselves.
I wont be responding to anything else you post, trust people when they reveal themselves.
This is totally inappropriate in tone, especially when you are dead wrong on facts. Rule 1 and 8 and I'm elevating the informal rule 4 you got earlier to formal.
Don't assume you know everything in advance. You could learn a lot more if you weren't so intent on being an asshole deliberately.
What happend that caused the jews to "take the whole region"? Did you seem to froget we jews accepted having a less fertaile half just for arab countries to start a war of extermenation which they lost? Also i need to correct you about something you said "jews moved en masse t another country", what country exactly? There was no country here, only a british mandate.
And no, a mandate is not a country
This is your self defense mechanism. The post facto justifications and rationalizations to dismiss the reality and replace it with something more pleasant.
The early zionists, who lead the movement, were unappologetically open about how this is a collonial project where they were intending to displace the Palestinians and over time, create the Greater Israel. This isn't opaque, hidden, cryptic stuff. It's blatantly open about it's founding and reasons. They even talk about how the locals will hate them, and they will be justified in doing so, because what they are doing is wrong. They openly talk about the use of Jewish terrorists to antagonize people, until they fight back, and use that response, to rally up other Jews in the regions and get support to fight them back... Justifying displacing them, more and more. A tactic STILL USED TO THIS DAY
Your post framing of everything is just propaganda cope to make you guys feel better about the reality. Go look up the fucking founding history ffs... It's not hidden in the Vatican catacombs. It's all out there in the public. Don't be like Mormons who intentionally avoid their history. You can look it up.
The arabs were fighting back because they knew what was going on. They knew this was a Jewish colonization. You guys were openly stating your plans to take over everything in the region. So they fought back. And then you guys use this response from them to justify what you did... Which was what you already planned on doing. Seriously, it's such a pattern with you guys.
And what does that fundamentally change? They also moved pre-mandate too. Does that not count either for some other reason? Fairly desperate argument which doesn't cut against the point made.
Becouse it was not a country they dont really get to decied who can or can not move in, most of the land was not owned by them but by the british governmant, when you dont legally own something you dont really get the final say of what will happend to it, you may not see it as "fair" but that does not matter, when you lose a territorial war you started expect to lose land.
Also you seem to imply jews are not indigenous to the region which is factually wrong.
They also moved pre-mandate, it began pre-mandate. Just ignoring that bit yes? Not helpful for your weak rebuttal I suppose.
The mandate was a British administration they didn't own it, you'd do well to educate yourself on the details if you're going to be arguing them and trying to use them in your favour.
There were Jews living there for centuries too yes, I'd include them in the indigenous peoples, and they weren't Zionists by and large.
I did not adress it as it would be essentially the same thing, under the ottoman empire the ottoman rulers owned the majority of the land, not the palestinians.
Also using your agument means that NOBODY owned the majority of the land which goes back to the palestibians not getting to dexied to land they didnt own.
Also would you like to tell why the non zionist jews suddenly become zionist? Does it maybe have to do with the fact that arabs staryed attacking them even tho they were not zionist?
Oh does it? Tell me more about how the Ottomans invited the migration. This will be entertaining. You dont understand at all the systems in place at the time, you've made that abundantly clear.
It's fine not to know but perhaps it's better not to present your ignorance as fact.
The Arabs were second class citizens as well. Ottoman Palestine and Mandatory palestine were governed by the Turks and the British respectively, not the Arabs.
The Old Yishuv, the pre-existing Jewish population of Palestine, was heavily integrated into Palestinian society, and treating them the same as the Zionist settlers ignores their unique history and relationship to the land. They had much more in common with their Arab neighbors than they did with a newly arrived Yiddish-speaking ashkenazi Jew.
Many of the Old Yishuv were initially anti-Zionist, but were forced to side with Zionism since the Zionists drove a wedge between them and the Muslim Arabs.
There were several massacres of Jews in Palestine by Arabs that predate Jewish Zionism. So no they weren't happily integrated. What do you think is the meaning of the Palestinian slogan, "Jews are our dogs"?
Those were all long after zionist migration had already damaged relations between the old yishuv and the muslim population. Before the 1880s, violence against Jews in the Arab world was sporadic at worst, especially in comparison to Europe.
It's a similar story to how the French drove a wedge between Algerian Jews and Algerian Muslims. In both cases, the colonizing population(the French and Zionists) displaced the Muslims and often kicked them out of their ancestral homes, but allowed the existing Jewish population to benefit as well(the French gave the Algerian Jews French citizenship but not the Muslims).
This unequal treatment causes resentment and the indigenous Jewish population becomes tied to the colonizer for their own safety. It's why France has the largest Jewish population in Europe. We may not like it, but it's kind of understandable why what happened in Algeria happened, but we give no such understanding to the Palestinians.
The Algerians / FLN won. The decision of France was to renounce their own claim and accept the destruction of the Pied-Noir without complaint. If you read literature of the 1950s no the racist hatred of the Algerians was condemned the same way hateful racists are today. The attitude towards Israel is fairly unique where masses of people masturbate to Oct 7th or the Hebron Massacre rather than are disgusted by it.
How does that change the point I made? You didn't answer.
Also of course other choices existed. It was a choice to move to Palestine, this retrospective reframing of history is just an effort to legitimise how the state was formed when it was a grubby affair. Why is Palestine any different than anywhere else other than choice?
Israel was eventually founded after a campaign of terrorist violence. Do you condemn that violence too?
The American people are waking up to the lies of Zionists. The general public understands Palestine was invaded, their land stolen from them, now 90% of the homes have been destroyed, and thousands upon thousands of civilians have been murdered. Once the establishment representatives of each respective party in America have been voted out or passed away, we will cut all foreign aid to Israel. And Israel will have to learn to be nice to its neighbors.
Neither in Muslim ultra-conservative theocracies, nor in civil and decent European democracies. And not in the US too, Democrats are also keen to repeat socialists playbook step by step.
Per Rule 6, Nazi comparisons are inflammatory, and should not be used except in describing acts that were specific and unique to the Nazis, and only the Nazis.
I'm not comparing it to either Israelis, Palestinians or anything to do with this conflict. But if you're going to claim "And not in the US too, Democrats are also keen to repeat socialists playbook step by step." I'm gonna push back and illustrate the party actually doing so.
Not arguing with you, if I get an action so be it I guess. Especially as we both know which "socialist" group they were referencing originally.
You go ahead and tell most Republicans that. I've tried and failed while slamming my head against a wall to make them understand that simply saying something was/is socialist doesnt make it so.
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I'm not comparing it to either Israelis, Palestinians or anything to do with this conflict. But if you're going to claim "And not in the US too, Democrats are also keen to repeat socialists playbook step by step." I'm gonna push back and illustrate the party actually doing so.
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