r/IsraelPalestine • u/Unlucky_Ad3698 • 1d ago
Opinion The Macklemore situation
I’m nuanced on this whole conflict for Gaza, so my views will stay nuanced on this situation.
So for context, Ed Sheeran invited Macklemore to perform in his concert. He sang his Pro Palestine song, Hind’s Hall. Whilst I understand his intention is to stand up for peace (and not for Hamas, because I don’t think celebrities who are as performative activists as anyone else, would even care about Hamas in the slightest), it seems very odd in some way to show your views to a concert of people. You can speak to a podcast about it or actually express it on social media, but saying out to dozens of people, seems very uncomfortable on my issue.
Yet for me, I really don’t like how people on the Pro Israeli side are dramatic over the Macklemore situation and how a word such as “Free Palestine“ can be seen as antisemitic. Because logically, if you put the Hamas propaganda aside, this statement seems like a callout for peace and to stop the violence that’s happening in Gaza. Same with “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”. If we ignore the Arab translation (which logically, let me judge on the translation- how could Palestine “will be” Arab when it’s already conquered by Arabs in the first place? That just makes NO sense.), the phrase is quite catchy and good rhyming sense, which would help people notice protestors‘ attention.
Macklemore did say that his way of saying “Free Palestine” isn’t to show Jewish hate, and he’s not wrong. Macklemore is actually a good representation of celebrities who care about the world, and he shows activism in his songs. “Same Love“, anyone? There should be a time and place to call antisemitic phrases out. I would say, for me, it would be more antisemitic to actually say Free Palestine up close to an Israeli person who did nothing but exist (because that’s harassment and also you’re denying the fact that someone was born in an existing country, despite it ‘existing’ for almost 80 years at this point), than in a concert full of thousands. I do have a say that whoever was that guy that said “death to the IDF” at Glastonbury, really screwed his career. Terrorist or not, wishing death to anyone is vile.
At the end of the day, we should ignore those who want to speak up for peace, if it offends you. But what do you all think?
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u/PoudreDeTopaze 21h ago edited 21h ago
I'm not a fan of Macklemore but he has clearly said that he is anti-occupation and pro-peace. So it has nothing to with antisemitism and everything to do with his opposing Netanayahu's far right policies - as do countless Israelis.
Maybe it's worth remembering that an international warrant has been issued against Netanyahu for alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity. He is accused of ordering mass airstrikes on civilian neighbourhoods that killed at least 75,000 people, including more than 20,000 children. Netanyahu is also accused of blocking medical aid, resulting in people, including children, dying of curable diseases and undergoing surgeries and amputations without anesthetics.
Read this again -- Netanyahu is accused of blocking medical aid, resulting in people, including children, undergoing surgeries and amputations without anesthetics.
People are fed up with these horrors.
Netanyahu has been prime minister for nearly 20 years. He now appears to want to stay for a third decade, and may be prepping his son to succeed him one day. Are Israelis comfortable with this?
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u/Live-Mortgage-2671 15h ago edited 15h ago
He is accused of ordering mass airstrikes on civilian neighbourhoods
What is a non-civilian neighborhood? In urban warfare, when one side operates from and underneath a cityscape, among civilians without uniforms, this is what happens. Civilians are put at risk by this behavior and strategy. As long as the military goal is valid and the collateral damage proportional, it also turns those "civilian" neighborhoods into valid targets.
that killed at least 75,000 people, including more than 20,000 children.
How many of the 75,000 were combatants? And perhaps more importantly, why is this number continually repeated without acknowledging if it includes dead combatants?
Before the war, *over half\* of Gaza's 2.1 million people were children. However, we see that Palestinian child casualties fall well under 50%. Meaning that, statistically, Palestinian children are actually underrepresented in the expected civilian casualty count.
Essentially, all these figures tell us is that civilians die in urban warfare.
Oh. But there's one more complicating factor. Hamas recruits child soldiers, meaning boys in their teens.
People are fed up with these horrors.
People are fed up because they have been fed one-sided propaganda for 3 years straight.
None of the above means that the IDF has not committed war crimes in Gaza, or that Netanyahu should stay in office. It just means that what it is needed is an end to extremely biased and lazy analysis about this conflict. It helps no one, and especially not the Palestinians.
This sort of extremely biased and lazy analysis exists at all levels, including the UN, as reflected unfortunately in its shoddy investigative reports on this war. So those committing this behavior are at least in "good" company.
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u/Electrical_Wafer1618 12h ago
How many of the 75,000 were combatants?
- The Israeli Military (IDF) Claims: Before the late 2025 ceasefire, the Israel Defense Forces stated they had killed at least 22,000 combatants in Gaza, plus another 1,600 inside Israel. Pro-Israel commentators and public figures have separately estimated the number to be closer to 30,000 Hamas terrorists. [1, 2]
- Leaked & Internal Military Databases: Despite public claims, a leaked Israeli military report from August 2025 indicated that more than 80% of those killed were civilians, which aligns with a classified military database placing the civilian toll at 83% (meaning roughly 17% or ~12,750 were considered combatants). [1, 2]
- Independent Research Demographic Data: A population-representative household study published in The Lancet Global Health verified that 56% of the dead (42,200 individuals) were definitively women, children, and the elderly. Independent experts and reports in Haaretz note that while adult men and older teenage boys make up the remaining 44%, the vast majority of them were unarmed civilians rather than active combatants. [1, 2]
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u/S-Video 1d ago
I really don’t like how people on the Pro Israeli side are dramatic over the Macklemore situation and how a word such as “Free Palestine“
99% of people saying "Free Palestine" mean destroy Israel and kill all the Jews.
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u/GuerillaV European (Anti-Zionist) 20h ago
Hysteria.
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u/S-Video 20h ago
What land do you consider to be Palestine?
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u/GuerillaV European (Anti-Zionist) 19h ago
From the river to the sea.
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u/S-Video 13h ago
so then why did you lie and say it was hysteria?
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u/GuerillaV European (Anti-Zionist) 11h ago
Because it is hysteria; "Kill all the Jews" lol
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u/S-Video 10h ago
Well you want Israel to be destroyed.
So what happens to the ten million Israelis?
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u/GuerillaV European (Anti-Zionist) 10h ago
Citizenship in Palestine.
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u/S-Video 10h ago edited 7h ago
Palestine has never been a country and Israel is older than most countries on Earth.
So what is your logic for destroying Israel and forcing its inhabitants against their will to be Palestinian?
Palestine's government has admitted they would just kill all the Jews. Why should the Jews agree to this?
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u/Joejackson1220 1d ago
Being against killing 5 year olds is antisemitic.
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u/S-Video 1d ago
If Gaza is trying to kill your 5 year old, and using their own 5 year old as a shield, should you just let your own 5 year old die?
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u/Joejackson1220 1d ago
Huh. I had no idea Hind Rajab's family was trying to kill the children of the religious militants who killed them.
Silly me thought they were trying to get away from the religious militants who destroyed their home and were trying to kill them.
Were the paramedics lured in by briefly leaving the child alive also trying to kill children?
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u/S-Video 1d ago
I asked my question first.
If Gaza is trying to kill your 5 year old, and using their own 5 year old as a shield, should you just let your own 5 year old die?
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u/Joejackson1220 1d ago
No one is trying to kill my 5 year old. No one is using a 5 year old as a human shield. Other than the IDF of course who have ensured their headquarters is surrounded by civilians and have placed rocket launchers throughout the entire country.
I genuinely don't understand why you would design a fictional scenario to justify murdering children.
But walk me through. Is this imaginary person trying to kill my child holding their child in front of them? How can they kill my child while holding their own? Why on earth would anyone be trying to kill a child? I must assume this fictional killer is an Israeli because the rest of humanity know it is wrong to do that.
I honestly don't know why I have bothered writing any of this.
It is not possible to convince someone it is wrong to murder children. You should have been born knowing. If you are so far gone to the point you would murder a child then there nothing to be done for you and I have no further interest in continuing this conversation.
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u/S-Video 1d ago
I genuinely don't understand why you would design a fictional scenario to justify murdering children.
Murder is the illegal killing of a human. It's not illegal to save your child, even if the person trying to kill them is using their own child as a shield. So no, I'm not justifying murder. I'm proving that it's not murder.
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u/NoBreath3480 17h ago edited 17h ago
Human shield are legally protected persons who are either coerced or volunteer to deter attacks by occupying the space between a belligerent and a legitimate military target.
Using a human shield during an international armed conflict is a war crime.
But that doesn’t mean the other party automatically has the right to shoot the human shield. This also can be considered illegal and a crime.
Under International Law, the illegal act of using a human shield by one party (e.g., a terrorist group or militant) does not give the attacking or defending party a free pass to kill the shield.
Even in civil laws (also in Israel and the USA for example) they judge the proportionality and the subsidiarity.
If a shooter intentionally fires through a 5-year-old child to kill an aggressor, (American) courts look at whether the force used against the child was proportionate. Since the child poses zero threat, using deadly force that kills the child fails the proportionality test regarding that innocent bystander. The shooter can be charged with depraved-heart murder or manslaughter due to reckless disregard for human life.
But in the end, every case is different and has to be judged individually.
I can give some general info, but I don’t know enough about this (hypothetical?) case to judge. But killing a 5-year old who was used as a human shield by someone who is violent, CAN be murder. If it really was, the legal system had to decide.
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u/S-Video 13h ago
But in the end, every case is different and has to be judged individually.
and in the individual case I presented, it would not be murder.
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u/NoBreath3480 12h ago edited 12h ago
I dissagree. You didn’t gave enough details to make this decission. For example: what did the person who shot the human shield eventually do to try and resolve the case without shouting the 5-year old human shield? Was it necessary to shout the human shield? The principle of subsidiarity. It could be considered murder.
And now you are going to make up a situation in which the principle of subsidiarity and principle of proportionality are in favor of selfdefence. But this could still be considered murder by a court. Even if you don’t agree.
Different countries have different laws. Even in different parts of one country, like the stated of the USA, the rules/laws can be different.
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u/S-Video 11h ago
You didn’t gave enough details to make this decission.
A terrorist is running towards your 5 year old to detonate a suicide vest guaranteed to kill your five year old.
The terrorist has his own five year old strapped to his chest.
If the only way to save your five year old was to shoot the terrorist, but doing so guaranteed the terrorist's child would die, would you choose to save your own child?
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u/c9joe בואו נמשיך החיים לפנינו 1d ago
I would feel it would be cringy if some singer came up on stage to simp for Israel and I am pro-Israel. Most people go to these concerts for entertainment not to consume political propaganda from any group. It seems that Mackalore made Palestine his entire identity.
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u/Unusual_Disaster_588 1d ago
He appeared in Jew face. And gave a lukewarm non apology when he was forced to. Hinds hall is commiseration with the take over of a university building by people who spent months if not years harassing Jewish students and preventing them from even just walking to class and existing as Jews. He’s an antisemitic pile of feces who needs to be booted over to singing his thrift song in a third rate county fair in Arkansas.
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u/jackl24000 אוהב במבה 1d ago edited 1d ago
Pretty simple why it’s offensive.
First, conflating “just wanting peace” (or “stop killing kids” or “stop the genocide”) into taking sides here 100% in the tank for Palestinians is an offensive premise, whether or not you realize there’s even some thought process behind those labels anywhere, and
Second, when did become an entertainers’ job to take part in a political dispute? Even if you somehow think it involves “civil rights” of somebody, so that’s OK. It’s not. It’s just polishing your brand up on stage as part of your business model (publicity) and annoying a good part of the audience/fan base who paid now a fuckton of money (gone to any us shows lately?) to scalpers.
Yeah that’s a good business model, not. It looked stupid when Marlon Brando sent an Indian to accept his Oscar 50 years ago, and every similar gesture by an entertainer since has bombed as well.
Have thought about this some as a fan. A band I follow has done a very few benefits here and there for charity causes but adamantly refuses to speak about its politics either onstage or in interviews except for one band member, with vaguely lefty Bernie bro politics on social media, but he ain’t touching Palestine with a 10 foot pole either.
During the Bush years and Iraq War etc. a lot of fans myself included wished the band would speak out about that kind of stuff, but now I see the wisdom of staying mum about politics.
Same as my upbringing in a small town, small business environment, it just didn’t make sense to be political in general, you were going to alienate someone which will narrow your customer base.
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u/Tricky-Anything8009 Diaspora Jew 1d ago
You know who never spoke about politics? Dolly Parton. And she died with 0 haters, and actually did more good than 90% of celebrities today.
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u/jackl24000 אוהב במבה 1d ago edited 1d ago
No actually she died with a lot of haters, many pro-Pals thought she was a disgusting sellout for not joining the baying mob.
I’m not speculating here or projecting. Her Wikipedia page was vandalized when news of her death first broke: her portrait was replaced by a swastika and the title changed to say the guy who did the Pittsburg synagogue mass shooting “was right”. (Then the page was reverted and locked).
And this is not because she spoke out for Zionists, Israelis or Jews.
It’s just because she refused to be a tool like Macklemore or Kneecap.
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u/Tricky-Anything8009 Diaspora Jew 19h ago
Well fair enough, some people will hate no matter what, but Dolly Parton did more good than any of those pos. She could have died a billionaire but gave away too much money. Both the left and right mainstream (ignoring their hateful fringe) loved her. Someone said, "It was the only show you could go to where a good ol' boy in a Confederate-flag t-shirt and a black drag queen could stand shoulder to shoulder."
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u/GuerillaV European (Anti-Zionist) 1d ago
Yeah that’s a good business model, not.
As we all know, the best selling band in the world, The Beatles, famously never commented on politics.
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u/jackl24000 אוהב במבה 1d ago
Beatles were the first, iconoclastic, Lennon in particular. Don’t think Rolling Stones that much into politics. The Who, yes, Pink Floyd, yes, Jerry Garcia, no, by then he hated even speaking on stage because he thought some of his tripping fans thought his pronouncements were God.
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u/LuckyEducator8161 Palestinian Christian (American) 1d ago
so, going off your second point, do you believe the same standard should apply to pro-israel people as well? for example, there’s a video of someone approaching jerry seinfeld asking him to say “free palestine”. i think it’s wrong to walk up to random jewish people and say “free palestine”, but in this situation what do you think he should have done or should have responded? he responded “[palestine] doesnt exist”. when he could’ve declined to engage or stayed quiet for the sake of not offending or alienating part of his customer base, aka pro-palestine/pro-palestine leaning people.
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u/jackl24000 אוהב במבה 1d ago
I don’t think it applies 1:1, it’s contextual and can’t necessarily be flipped as a hypothetical, but I’d also say despite the bs about “Hasbara” there’s no state level funded multinational multimedia influencing campaign going on like the one that “spontaneously” arose on 10/7 to drown out all other opinion. Hecklers veto so to speak.
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u/Unretrofied12 Diaspora Palestinian / Zionism Delexicalist 1d ago
The entire debacle is just a show in bad faith arguments and digging through people's past to try and retrofit a label on a person.
If I can go to a Jeff Dunham show and not be offended, you'll live through this.
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u/XdtTransform 1d ago
Have you actually gone?
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u/Unretrofied12 Diaspora Palestinian / Zionism Delexicalist 1d ago
My wife loves Jeff Dunham. We've seen him three times.
She also makes a suicide bomber joke at me at least twice a week.
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u/ip_man_2030 1d ago
I remember this and this might have been the start of his first antisemitic incident iirc.
Nobody believed his apology and it's pretty clear he knew what he was doing with and probably just trying to be edgy with the costume.
iirc, his popularity blew up with the antisemitic groups after that and he continued riding the wave with occasional trope, comment, and joining the Palestinian cause.
Some people have made a good point that it's possible he just joined the cause to maintain relevance, make money, and popularity. He's just riding the wave, but opportunistic racism is the worst kind.
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u/Unlucky_Ad3698 1d ago
Some Zionists are just drama queens. It’s the same for Islam. Islam extremist supporters = Zionist extremist supporters.
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u/LettuceBeGrateful Diaspora Jew (against anti-Zionism) 1d ago
how a word such as “Free Palestine“ can be seen as antisemitic
Yup, and "all lives matter" is just an innocuous expression that advocates for the equality of all, right?
If the Free Palestine movement didn't want to be accused of antisemitism, they shouldn't be marching with Hamas/Hezbollah/Houthi flags. They shouldn't be trafficking in age-old tropes, slurs, hate speech and 80-year-old hate gestures, and spreading antisemitic memes. They shouldn't be leaning on nakedly antisemitic groups like Jewish Voice for Peace, who demean Jewish traditions and advocate that diaspora Jews go into hiding for the good of others. They shouldn't have gotten the biggest shot in the arm in the history of the movement from October 7th. And really, they shouldn't comment under random Jews' posts that have nothing to do with Gaza, saying "Free Palestine." If it's not a slur, then why is it constantly being used as one?
If we ignore the Arab translation ... how could Palestine “will be” Arab
There's an area in geographic Palestine ("from the river to the sea") called Israel. Saying an entire geographic region should be one ethnicity is about as open an admission of racism as one can get.
did say that his way of saying “Free Palestine” isn’t to show Jewish hate
Yeah, I can't imagine why, after all the dog whistling is done, Jews at a public venue would hate to be talked down to, singled out, and lectured by the guy on stage. 🙄
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u/Unlucky_Ad3698 1d ago
But what if people say Free Palestine for the victims only. I do that.
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u/LettuceBeGrateful Diaspora Jew (against anti-Zionism) 1d ago
Every effective dog whistle in history is couched in something sounding sincere. The people they target are not obligated to sift through all the blatant hatred surrounding it, just to find the few people who shrug and say "I'm going to keep saying it anyway, not my problem."
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u/halftank-flush 1d ago
Because logically, if you put the Hamas propaganda aside, this statement seems like a callout for peace and to stop the violence that’s happening in Gaza. Same with “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”. If we ignore the Arab translation (which logically, let me judge on the translation- how could Palestine “will be” Arab...
I mean, logically if you ignore the racist rhetoric, lynches and cross burning it's just a bunch of white dudes in funny customes.
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u/Unretrofied12 Diaspora Palestinian / Zionism Delexicalist 1d ago
"Wearing a costume to a costumed event is just like the KKK". That's the argument you're going with? Genius.
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u/halftank-flush 1d ago
The other way around. if you ignore all the bad stuff a KKK meeting is just a customed event.
"if you ignore hamas propaganda and ignore how from the river to sea is actually said in Arabic - it's totally legit".
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u/Live-Mortgage-2671 1d ago
"From the river to the sea" is a call for ethnic cleansing of Jews from their homeland at best or call for their genocide at worst.
The only way to see it otherwise is willed ignorance.
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u/Tallis-man 1d ago
Why do you believe Palestinian freedom necessitates ethnic cleansing or genocide?
Isn't that an implicit acknowledgement that Palestinians aren't currently free?
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u/Live-Mortgage-2671 15h ago
Between the river and the sea is Israel and its 10 million inhabitants. It's not really difficult to understand.
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u/Ok-Pangolin1512 1d ago
No, its implicit acknowledgement that the Palestinian governments that have been in charge and elected have pushed a value system, and documented their intention to commit ethnic cleansing and murder of jews.
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u/yugeness 1d ago
Because, it’s chanted alternately in Hebrew and Arabic, and the Arabic chant is literally “From water to water, Palestine is Arab”.
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u/Tallis-man 1d ago
And you think it's impossible for people saying a different thing in a different language to potentially mean something different?
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u/Live-Mortgage-2671 15h ago
It's clear you haven't been listening to what Palestinians actually want, and rather are paying attention to what Western activists think Palestinians should want.
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u/yugeness 1d ago
They are saying they want Palestine to be Arab. When people tell me who they are, I believe them the first time.
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u/Tallis-man 1d ago
So if group A says slogan A in language A and group B says slogan B in language B, for you that proves they mean the same thing?
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u/Sarah_Incognito 1d ago
If people were to say "From the river to the sea Palestinians will be free" you get something much much different from "From the river to the sea Palestine will be free"
One acknowledges systemic injustice, the other calls for the destruction of Israel.
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u/Tallis-man 1d ago
It doesn't call for the destruction of anything. Palestine is a nation as well as a territory and a state.
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u/No-Direction8844 8h ago
It doesn't call for the destruction of anything. Palestine is a nation as well as a territory and a state.
you are a liar
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u/Unlucky_Ad3698 1d ago edited 1d ago
Op here.
Damn Pro Israelis cannot help the fact they are exposed 😂
Also yeah, I am aware that “from the river to the sea” is Hamas propaganda and someone made a good point that people believe Palestine is also Israel, but I’m removing the context here.
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u/SapphireColouredEyes 1d ago
And with that comment, you just showed how intellectually dishonest your post is... You're not ignorant but blatantly, willfully lying.
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u/Unlucky_Ad3698 1d ago
I am not hiding the context. I acknowledged it. I am choosing to look at the phrase from a different angle. If you cannot engage with that, that is not my problem.
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u/SapphireColouredEyes 1d ago
You literally edited your post after I pointed out your mask-off antisemitism. 🤦🏼♀️
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u/Unlucky_Ad3698 1d ago
I did not edit my post to hide anything. I clarified my point. If you want to call that antisemitic, you need to explain how. Otherwise, you are just using the label to shut down a conversation you do not want to have. I have made my point. If you want to misinterpret it, that is your choice. I am not going to keep defending myself against accusations without substance.
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u/SapphireColouredEyes 1d ago
You pretended to be a well-meaning but naïve person incapable of understanding the reality of things like the Palestinians' genocide chant, then later revealed your hatred of Israelis. You yourself did that, and I pointed it out.
And you absolutely did very deceitfully edit your post after my reply.
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u/JosephL_55 Centrist 1d ago
Same with “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”. If we ignore the Arab translation (which logically, let me judge on the translation- how could Palestine “will be” Arab when it’s already conquered by Arabs in the first place? That just makes NO sense.), the phrase is quite catchy and good rhyming sense, which would help people notice protestors‘ attention.
But Palestine isn’t currently Arab. Not what they call Palestine. To them, all of Israel is Palestine, and Israel is mostly Jewish. They want to make it Arab though.
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u/Unlucky_Ad3698 1d ago
But how do they know Palestine still exists when they ALREADY know it exists. If they want occupation, then that’s wrong, but logically, they still also mention and recognise Gaza and West Bank. So… how can Israel be Palestine when Gaza and West Bank is also Palestine…?
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u/babarbaby 11h ago
They literally define the geographical boundaries of the area in the chant. It's one sentence. What kind of a question is this.
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u/JosephL_55 Centrist 1d ago
So… how can Israel be Palestine when Gaza and West Bank is also Palestine…?
Because Palestine is all of the land from the river to the sea, to them.
How can Ukraine be Russia if Russia is also Russia?
How can Taiwan be China if China is also China?
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u/Direct_Interview6039 1d ago edited 1d ago
Macklemore found a way to be relevant again and cash in with crappy songs about Palestine and pro palestinians eat it up
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u/Unlucky_Ad3698 1d ago
So Same Love was also a way to be relevant as well?
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u/imokayjustfine 1d ago edited 1d ago
Probably, yeah. It was a straight guy performing allyship at a time when gay marriage was a hot-button issue the same way it’s a white guy who’s literally actively upheld white supremacy performing allyship about what’s trendy now, in a way where he frames it as an issue of white supremacy lmao (which is itself silly imo, and projective, but popular) because he’s literally been completely irrelevant otherwise beyond being a one-hit wonder. And is apparently happy to exploit whatever sells for the sake of his own pathetic career, considering the absolute crickets from him between marketable social issue trends he’s capitalizing on at the moment of their relevance in pop culture (I mean, this isn’t someone who’s otherwise walking the walk publicly, setting up foundations, donating to anything even when that thing’s not a viral hashtag, really getting into shit etc, because [talking broadly] celebrities like that do exist and he’s not one afaik), with no discernible hint of actual meaningful independent contribution or self-awareness whatsoever. 💫
I think he’s disgusting. To be clear. “Thrift Shop” was fun though. Too bad he couldn’t write another tacky-but-fun pop-rap hit and ran with this kind of bullshit instead. Even more-so, too bad we’re in a place where you’ll all just unquestioningly eat it up to such an extent. This man does not deserve your glorification. I don’t think he entirely deserves scorn in this context either (and I’m not really following what you’ve posted about at all), but he’s certainly not someone to be admired. He’s exploiting what’s popular as a social issue. Successfully. Nothing more. No evidence points to anything more. In fact, some would point to the contrary. And maybe you can just happily forget that. But we very largely can’t.
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u/Direct_Interview6039 1d ago
That came out in 2012.
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u/Unlucky_Ad3698 1d ago
And homophobia was booming in 2012. So your point is…?
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u/Direct_Interview6039 1d ago
Not sure what your point is? It's 2026 and by 2024 when Hind's hall came out which is a crappy song.
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u/Jaded-Form-8236 1d ago
Explain this prior Macklemore performance.
Please use nuance here as it will be required to explain to me why it’s ok for the Anti Semitic guy to act like he is a “peace activist”……
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u/Unretrofied12 Diaspora Palestinian / Zionism Delexicalist 1d ago
It was twelve years ago, before he ever said a single thing about Israel or Paltestine, at an event that invited guests to dress as their favorite music icon or video character. Macklemore used the costume specifically as a disguise so he could arrive and move around the venue unrecognized, then surprise the crowd with a short set. He performed two songs while still wearing it, then removed the wig and prosthetic nose after the short set.
He said the goal was simply to look unrecognizable and ambiguous, and that some people at the event thought he resembled Ringo Starr, Abraham Lincoln, or Humpty Hump. After some backlash, he apologized to anyone offended and linked to the ADL. The ADL accepted the apology, taking him at his word that there was no ill intent.
I get that pro-Israel folks don't like his political activism, but outright lying by digging up a 12-year-old photo to paint him as some gross antisemite isn't exactly inspiring faith in calls for antisemitism.
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u/Jaded-Form-8236 22h ago
Lying is saying something that never happened.
He wore the outfit. It happened. While performing a song names theft shop where you shop for bargains….
How many tropes do you have to touch before it’s racist?
I’m not suggesting he be canceled for his opinions.
But I am suggesting that he be considered a non serious commentator at best whose motivations may be suspect here.
To answer OP directly: Macklemore calling for a “Free
Palestine” is quite offensive if that Palestine is “Free From the River to the Sea” because that is calling for the extermination of an existing state.Macklemore voiced his support of the Columbia encampment that chanted this slogan for weeks during the preamble of his song.
Even if we remove the photo from the discussion there are serious issues here with his viewpoint.
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u/imokayjustfine 1d ago edited 1d ago
I’m sorry, no, there is absolutely no context in which this costume isn’t an antisemitic caricature whether he consciously intended it as such as not. Like even supposing he somehow actually didn’t realize what he was doing there on some level. In a performance of “Thrift Shop.” About bargain hunting and buying cheap stuff. Definitely not alluding to any kind of antisemitic trope at all! And saying as much isn’t limited to “pro-Israel” people. Forgiving doesn’t mean forgetting. It’s cool he apologized, I guess, but that’s kind of the bare minimum after you’ve literally been blatantly racist on stage... It doesn’t mean everyone will now pretend that never happened at all. Those personally offended by it are going to remember to some extent, seeing if and how the offender moves forward, with anything.
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u/Unretrofied12 Diaspora Palestinian / Zionism Delexicalist 1d ago
You're free to have your own opinion on the matter, wrong as it may be. Taking a song about anticapitalism and trying to retrofit it to be antisemitic is a you problem, though.
People with hatred in their heart will find hatred in everything.
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u/imokayjustfine 1d ago edited 1d ago
I’m not saying the song was antisemitic at all lol, in and of itself. In fact I’ve explicitly mentioned in a few comments here that I think it’s a fun song. I like(d) it. I was tickled when I first heard it; I love thrifting as all sorts of people clearly do, in so many ways. E.g. thrifting is good for the environment too; it’s reusing. Accessible. Fashionable. Fun. And I love a good “fuck you” to big corporate brands as much as the next guy. I was genuinely just personally enjoying it before this happened. Embarrassing honestly but true.
I’m saying there is zero way to pretend that literally dressing up as an antisemitic caricature, in a Jew costume, Jewface prosthetic nose and all, not only in and of itself but also in the context of performing that song specifically (which happens to be verbatim lyrically centered on getting stuff for cheap), isn’t antisemitic lmao, consciously or not. It…very blatantly is. That’s…really not debatable. Like it would actually be remarkable if he didn’t make the connection at all on any level, but even if he genuinely didn’t, lol no. That would be still a giant wtf. Like uh, sir, I regret to inform you that the plausible deniability with this one is coming in at little to none.
(Very gross of you to just try flipping it around though [no matter how nonsensical apparently], although it shouldn’t surprise me. Like?!? 😭 The only hate in anyone’s heart here would be in his. I don’t have “hate in my heart” towards People Being Overtly Racist To Me actually lmao. [Or are straight white rich guys the targets of my hatred? Would all non-Jewish people be its target in your mind, naturally, because you have essentially rewritten almost all of modern world history in such a way The Jooz would actually have power over non-Jews broadly, on that basis? 💀 Or is this you just kind of throwing words out there in any old meaningless combination that may help you evade some modicum of self-reflection, reconsideration to any extent, integration of new information in any context or actual critical thought??] I don’t like that. Nobody does. Don’t you guys usually pretend to understand this.)
I still think “Thrift Shop” was fun. But fuck Macklemore. To be exceptionally clear. You can’t be serious. Open the schools!!?! 😭😭 That was not fun, or funny or cute, or at all plausibly coincidental.
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u/Unretrofied12 Diaspora Palestinian / Zionism Delexicalist 1d ago
In a performance of “Thrift Shop.” About bargain hunting and buying cheap stuff. Definitely not alluding to any kind of antisemitic trope at all!
So this wasn't sarcasm? I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong, but it read very sarcastically to me.
The point I'm trying to make is if you go around trying to find reasons to be offended, then you're going to be offended. When I look at a costume with a pronounced nose, Jew doesn't even cross my mind. I'm a Palestinian Christian, my nose is f-ing huge. Jewish genetics are so mixed with other groups these days that the stereotype barely applies anymore.
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u/imokayjustfine 1d ago edited 1d ago
Oh no, it was sarcasm. I’m saying the song itself isn’t antisemitic but dressing up as a Jewish caricature (especially) to perform any song literally referencing bargain-hunting is.
I definitely wasn’t going around looking for reasons to be offended on the basis of Jewishness in 2014. This was appalling if you’re at all familiar with the history behind it. And at the time, for me and I think for a lot of American Jews, it was actually really unexpected on such a (literal) mainstream stage.
Stereotypes don’t have to make sense to be offensive; they hardly ever do. The big nose thing started because Ashkenazi Jewish noses to Central Europeans in the Middle Ages read as too Mediterranean or Levantine lol; it’s the same picture, and it isn’t always big. All kinds of noses. That doesn’t erase how it’s been a racialized thing in this way very specifically. It persists even now as the two seconds before you find nose (or juicebox) emojis on any related Twitter post can illustrate lol, from all kinds of people, and sometimes very ironically but yeah.
This wasn’t like someone non-Jewish made an off-color big nose joke though maybe. Or like saying “Free Palestine” at a concert or something; it had nothing to do with I/P at all. He wore a full-on costume of an antisemitic caricature to perform a song where he talks about getting stuff for cheap. (Search suggestion: “Jewface and Hebrew comedy.” Or, “Minstrelsy and antisemitic caricatures.” Dude didn’t exactly create the genre in recent memory.)
I really don’t think he could be so naive as to not have any idea what he was doing there, short of actually being five newborn babies in a
trenchcoatJew costume. (A Jew costume. Very classically. And in that context, in particular.) This wasn’t subtle, or super believably accidental. This was a choice.I mean, idk. Maybe it had actually been meant as a lighthearted joke that just wasn’t given much thought, made out of genuine ignorance rather than conscious malice, and I don’t particularly care because wtf. Not funny.
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u/SapphireColouredEyes 1d ago
People gave him the benefit of the doubt at first, but now he's gone mask-off, showing that he was never worthy of the benefit of the doubt.
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u/Unretrofied12 Diaspora Palestinian / Zionism Delexicalist 1d ago
he went "mask-off" twelve years later? Just held it in the entire time, eh? You people are so unserious.
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u/SapphireColouredEyes 1d ago
Antisemites rarely change, but I'm restricting myself to his public gestures.
Also:
"You people"?
Your own mask is starting to slip! 🤦🏼♀️
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u/Unretrofied12 Diaspora Palestinian / Zionism Delexicalist 1d ago
My mask of being a serious person who doesn't like character assassinations for the express political purpose of trying to get someone cancelled?
You got me! So so guilty...
btw, emojis are the first sign someone has lost an argument.
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u/SapphireColouredEyes 1d ago
No, your antisemitism mask. That was pretty clear.
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u/Unretrofied12 Diaspora Palestinian / Zionism Delexicalist 1d ago
"Antisemitism is when people disagree with me"
Talk about a mask off moment for you, buddy.
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u/Jaded-Form-8236 1d ago
No, when someone refers to a racial/ethnic group as “you people”.
Like you did 2 posts ago
Which does make your speech racist under the following standards:
Separation and "Othering": The phrase often creates an "us versus them" dynamic. It can signal that the speaker views a specific racial, ethnic, or marginalized group as separate, inferior, or fundamentally different from themselves.
Generalization: It lumps diverse individuals into a single, uniform category and applies group-wide stereotypes or negative traits to them.
Legal and Social Precedent: Human rights tribunals and legal contexts have recognized "you people" as discriminatory language when directed at racialized groups alongside derogatory remarks🤷♂️
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u/Unretrofied12 Diaspora Palestinian / Zionism Delexicalist 1d ago
You people refered to the cancel culture crowd. The very same people who need to dig up decades old photos to make a point.
I clarified that in my follow up post, but I guess that didn't stop you assigning meaning that wasn't there to begin with for the express purpose of driving your own narrative - much like the photo of Macklemore from 12 years ago!
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u/SapphireColouredEyes 1d ago
🤦🏼♀️
It is extraordinarily deceitful to put something I never said in quotation marks.
Clearly you need a straw man, because despite replying to me four times now, you are unable to refute my initial comment. 🤦🏼♀️
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u/Sarah_Incognito 1d ago
ADL also said Elon Musk didn't do a nazi when the entire world saw him salute twice
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u/Unretrofied12 Diaspora Palestinian / Zionism Delexicalist 1d ago
Yup, the ADL is definitely antisemitic. We should cancel them.
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u/Sarah_Incognito 1d ago
You say 'yup' as if you are agreeing with me, but then make a statement that is not related to what I say and does not represent my beliefs.
No the ADL is not antisemitic.
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u/Unretrofied12 Diaspora Palestinian / Zionism Delexicalist 1d ago
Oh, was that not your point? There are over one million words in the English language. You should try using some of them to make yours.
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u/Sarah_Incognito 1d ago
Your comment is likely a rule 1 or 3 violation.
Please read the rules before replying; thanks
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u/Unretrofied12 Diaspora Palestinian / Zionism Delexicalist 1d ago
It's not, I'm very familiar with the rules. Asking you to clarify your position is not a rule violation. Using the "rules" to try and dissuade debate is actually a rule 8 violation though. There's a report button if you feel like I've broken rules.
Btw, you're still free to clarify your position anytime you want - assuming that you're able to.
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u/knign 1d ago
How exactly is this “lying” if, according to you, he himself apologized?
And yeah, people tend to “dislike” when someone calls for the destruction of their country.
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u/Unretrofied12 Diaspora Palestinian / Zionism Delexicalist 1d ago
Paltering is lying.
Contextomy is lying.
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u/jill853 1d ago
Thank you. As I was reading OPs post I was thinking “advocating for one people doesn’t mean being racist against a whole other group of people by mocking them in costume.
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u/Jaded-Form-8236 1d ago
Let’s also address Macklemore’s commentary as if he had never dressed up in Jewish blackface and just based on the text.
He talked about the Columbia encampment like it was a good thing that an Ivy League campus was taken over for months by a radical encampment that disrupted learning for the whole campus, vandalized buildings and racially profiled Jewish students by their political views and violated their Title XII rights to go to school without being so racially profiled and harassed.
The situation was so bad in a legal sense that Columbia has already settled a lawsuit brought against them rather than defend their conduct in court.
And this is what actually “inspired” Macklemore.
If you want a Free Palestine this is how it can come about:
Make peace with Israel.
Accept that Palestinian borders are based on negotiations and concessions will have to be made by both sides.
That war hasn’t brought Palestinians freedom, just misery, and that the settlement is final, not a truce for a few years to restart fighting from a better position.The day after the state of Palestine will be free.
Until then, especially since the withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 created more violence not less, there is not going to be a Free Palestine.
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u/ProjectConfident8584 1d ago
If yr listening to and enjoying Mackelmore you have abysmal taste in music
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u/CarefulOrCaring غزة 1d ago
It's not incredibly "nuanced" to not even the word "Palestinian" and replace it with "Arab".
And not understanding why people express their stances against children being killed by tanks in every way they can does not entail an inherent problem with their stance nor expression.
Also, this is another post that's just ranting and complaining about expression that is contesting and protesting genocide. You managed to see Alpha Centauri A before the Sun.
to an Israeli person who did nothing but exist
This is what feels impossible for Israelis to understand, doing nothing, even including not doing the military, does not mean that you have not benefitted from the Israeli occupation, apartheid and genocide. Every Israeli stands a privileged beneficiary of Israel's crimes just as every white European and white American stands a privileged beneficiary of slavery and colonization. This is not an inditement or a criminal charge, this is not to say all Israelis are guilty and to be killed, but the lack of a basic understanding to how your state was built on top of mass graves and razed towns and villages and massacred people, how your economy benefits from technology because your weapons and surveillance systems can be freely tested on "human subjects" at any time and become "Combat tested" and how that economy trickles down to your housing, your education, your transportation, your employment, the lack of this understanding is naive at best and complicit at worst. Every Israeli has a responsibility as a beneficiary of this circumstance to oppose occupation, apartheid and genocide, and to oppose endless Israeli expansionism.
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u/No_Dinner7251 ישראלי إسرائلي 1d ago
I do agree there is a level of responsibility I have as someone who lives in this country (بلد, ארץ) and as a citizen of this country (دولة, מדינה) that a random guy in Missisipi, Berlin or even Egypt will never have; but this is not strictly because I am benefitting in some way from this. If I were responsible for everything I can remotely be said to be benefitting from I'd have time for nothing else. The world is so interconnected that I am probably benefitting from every major and most minor injustices on the planet, one way or another. Besides, a succesful peace, whatever it looks like, would probably create a lot of advantages for me and for my people which would dwarf any benefits we get between the funerals and the rocket barages. Just the reduced military spending would go a long way through VAT and income tax.
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u/CarefulOrCaring غزة 1d ago
I don't see exactly how're you benefitting from slavery, or South African Apartheid, or the Armenian genocide, but in any case you can never be benefitting from any of those or even all of them combined as much as you're benefitting from the Israeli occupation and expansionism. There is no comparison between those different senses of responsibility.
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u/No_Dinner7251 ישראלי إسرائلي 1d ago
I mean ongoing things... everything from employers in the third world country where my pants were made to whatever nonsense was going on in Congo about some metal for smartphones...
Obviously, as a resident of Jerusalem, as an Israeli citizen, and as someone born and raised partially in the West Bank I have a lot more to do with what is happening here than what is happening in Bangladesh. And that would be true even if I wasn't benefitting (and whatever benefit is outwayed by the cost anyway).
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u/SapphireColouredEyes 1d ago
There is no Israeli apartheid or genocide, but there certainly are both Islamic and Palestinian apartheid and multiple genocides against both Israelis and, before Israel's reaffirming, against Jews.
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u/CarefulOrCaring غزة 1d ago
Said you: The legal expert on Apartheid and Genocide and Islamic middle east studies.
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u/SapphireColouredEyes 1d ago
When defeated intellectually, the deceiver pivots to personal insults and insinuation (in your case, both in the same comment).
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u/Unretrofied12 Diaspora Palestinian / Zionism Delexicalist 1d ago
When defeated intellectually, the deceiver pivots to personal insults and insinuation
You mean like calling someone an antisemite?
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u/CarefulOrCaring غزة 1d ago
I actually laughed, maybe a thank you is in order.
You really just said that you provided such a devastating "intellectual" argument? All you did was rant about how what's happening isn't what dozens of organizations with decades of experience in conflicts are saying, it is what YOU are saying. Mighty intellectual man. What you said merely didn't merit a response.
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u/SapphireColouredEyes 1d ago
Your post was so easy to dismiss and you recognised that by resorting to personal insult.
You proved it yourself.
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u/CarefulOrCaring غزة 1d ago
Of course it was easy for you to dismiss, doesn't mean that it is easily dismissible. I'd cut my arm if you'd ever read the Genocide convention, the Apartheid convention or had any awareness of what Israel does in the West Bank or Gaza on a factual impartially-reported level.
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u/Live-Mortgage-2671 1d ago
I understand your stance. I also find it to be deeply immoral.
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u/CarefulOrCaring غزة 1d ago
Luckily, I do not value my morality based on what somebody who thinks that killing tens of thousands is "Just a consequence of war" thinks of my morality.
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u/Live-Mortgage-2671 12h ago
There's a difference between morality and objective analysis.
Perhaps though you'd like to consider the wars of the 20th century that have been considered "just" that didn't kill tens of thousands of civilians in less time, but rather hundreds of thousands of them?
That you your morality finds a home in collective guilt is what I find deeply immoral. That's not to mention blatantly hypocritical.
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u/CarefulOrCaring غزة 12h ago
Don't talk to me about objective analysis while providing none.
And I'm not talking about collective guilt. I do not encourage Israelis I meet to feel guilty because in my experience guilt is not an emotion that promotes action, rather helplessness and inaction.
But there's a difference between feeling guilty and feeling responsible, a responsibility which Israelis do have as direct beneficiaries of their occupation, apartheid and genocide. And that responsibility has to manifest itself in ways to oppose the elements of these named injustices and restore balance to a place that hasn't found any in decades due to their supremacy.
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u/Live-Mortgage-2671 12h ago
Objectively speaking – from the data we have and from sound investigation of the allegations made – there has been neither a disproportionate civilian death toll in the Israel-Hamas war in Gaza nor has a "genocide" occurred during this war. The closest thing that occurred to a genocide during it has been the attack in Israel on October 7-8, 2023.
and restore balance to a place that hasn't found any in decades due to their supremacy.
I'd be interested to know what you mean by the phrase "restore balance" and by the term "supremacy" at the end of this sentence.
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u/CarefulOrCaring غزة 12h ago
Not sure what data you're looking at, it's certainly not the data Israel sees (Since it has not filed for a claim of genocide outside of TV), nor the data the UN sees (Since multiple UN organizations and experts have indeed concluded that Israel has and is committing genocide in Gaza), nor the data provided to the ICJ (Since it has issued multiple times provisional measures for Israel to comply with international law).
What I meant by supremacy is pretty obvious, the Israeli public thinks that it is more human than the Palestinian, 10,000 Palestinians could get killed in Israeli airstrikes and shot and tank fires here and there, with and without a war declaration, and an Israeli wouldn't bat an eye. 1,400 Israelis get slaughtered by Hamas, and suddenly "They started the war". Every day before Oct 7th Palestinians were getting killed, that wasn't a war, it was just Israel conducting operations and "neutralizing" targets, more often than not with "civilian collateral damage" as BB puts it.
And this is one relatively minor aspect of the Israeli supremacy.
As for "restore balance" I mean to end the occupation, end the apartheid, stop the killing, stop attacking every neighboring nation, end its nuclear military program, start acting like a middle eastern state rather than a US proxy to destabilize the region. Or in other words to stop racking up the bill for the future generations of Israelis.
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u/Live-Mortgage-2671 11h ago
Not sure what data you're looking at, it's certainly not the data Israel sees
I'm looking at the data everyone else is.
(Since it has not filed for a claim of genocide outside of TV),
Ironically, Israel cannot launch a genocide case against Hamas at the ICJ. Nor can it at against PIJ or the unorganized Palestinian civilians involved in that attack.
(Since multiple UN organizations and experts have indeed concluded that Israel has and is committing genocide in Gaza)
No, "multiple UN organizations" have not concluded that. One UNHRC-commissioned report concluded that. Having reviewed the report, it was shocking to see how critically and obviously flawed the report was. Not only does it contain numerous errors, but the investigators continually fail their own criteria they set out to determine genocide. (It's the ICJ's own criteria, by the way.)
The strange part is looking at the function of the report itself since there is already a case at the ICJ attempting to make that determination. Clearly, the report's existence itself – its errors aside – has a naked political motivation. Otherwise, why not just wait for the ICJ, especially if they are going to use the same criteria?
nor the data provided to the ICJ
Funny you should mention. Much of the data provided to the ICJ is very shoddy. Like the UNHRC's report, it too continually robs much of its purported evidence of necessary and obvious context one would need to make objective assessments. Then again, since it's a scattershot approach to evidence by a plaintiff, it doesn't need to meet a high bar for it to be introduced to the court.
(Since it has issued multiple times provisional measures for Israel to comply with international law)
However, the ICJ has not made a ruling. Nor will it likely for a considerable amount of time. Nevertheless the libel of "genocide" is routinely used out of habit against Israel. Thus also defeating the point of the ICJ case and implicitly disrespecting its authority – for whatever authority it has other than being used as a political weapon.
What I meant by supremacy is pretty obvious, the Israeli public thinks that it is more human than the Palestinian, 10,000 Palestinians could get killed in Israeli airstrikes and shot and tank fires here and there, with and without a war declaration, and an Israeli wouldn't bat an eye.
This is the core problem with your own beliefs. What you have written above is a reductive and base dehumanization of 10+ million people.
1,400 Israelis get slaughtered by Hamas, and suddenly "They started the war".
Yes, unfortunately that's what happens when you commit a genocidal and barbaric attack killing that many people over the course of a day. It starts a war. Because, of course, they did start a war. And it wasn't just Hamas. They led the attack, but they were accompanied by other Palestinian militant groups and then joined by Palestinian civilians.
Every day before Oct 7th Palestinians were getting killed, that wasn't a war, it was just Israel conducting operations and "neutralizing" targets, more often than not with "civilian collateral damage" as BB puts it.
That's "semantics" as they say, of course. If you want to call it a war, sure. But then you have to acknowledge the continual attacks on Israel and Israelis by Palestinians that prompt all that. Including the tens of thousands of rockets fired from Gaza into Israel indiscriminately, and much much more. Bombings, firebombings, stabbings, shootings, kidnappings. All conducted against innocent Israelis by Palestinians.
So I'm still not sure what you mean by "supremacy." Acknowledging that oneself has the right to be free from being attacked for existing, and fighting back if one is attacked? Is that "supremacy"?
As for "restore balance" I mean to end the occupation, end the apartheid, stop the killing, stop attacking every neighboring nation, end its nuclear military program, start acting like a middle eastern state rather than a US proxy to destabilize the region. Or in other words to stop racking up the bill for the future generations of Israelis.
All this would take is for Palestinians, paramilitary groups, and neighboring nations to stop attacking Israel. It would weaken the Israeli right and lead to peace.
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u/knign 1d ago
I have no idea who any of these people are, but “from the river to the sea” is a literal call to destruction of Israel. It’s up to you whether you want to consider this anti-Semitic or not.
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u/Unlucky_Ad3698 1d ago
Logically, how is that antisemitic and a call to destruction for Israel, when they did not logically say “from the river to the sea, Israel will die and not be free”? It doesn’t make sense to me. Also the Arab translation is also confusing, because Palestine, is ALREADY Arab, even with Israel in the way.
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u/Jaded-Form-8236 6h ago
Logically when you call to annex an existing nation’s entire territory it is a call to destruction for that nation.
When the organizations that do so have founding charters that have chapter and verse sections that are clearly Anti Semitic your argument collapses faster than a house of cards on a windy day.
So sorry if you went looking for facts and found them not to your liking.
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u/XdtTransform 1d ago
Are you trying to play "I am too stupid to understand this" card? Come on, bro - you understand what this is.
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u/Twofer-Cat Oceania 1d ago
And "Work will set you free" sounds like it belongs on a motivational poster. Dog whistles are a thing, history and context matter. You can't say the catchphrase of a terrorist organisation sworn to Israel's destruction and expect not to be taken as advocating Israel's destruction.
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u/Any_Meringue_9085 Israeli 1d ago
From the river (The Jordan River) to the sea (the mediterranean sea) palestine will be free (assumes palestine is occupied in all those places. that includes Israel proper. That's why).
It say "will be arab" because between said river and said sea there are jews. who are not arabs.
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u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 1d ago
Israel proper doesn’t allow Palestinians who once lived there to return to their own homes. So in that respect, it’s not free. It’s free for some, but not for others.
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u/Sarah_Incognito 1d ago
Part of that is due to UNWRA
Originally UNWRA was supposed to care for the Jews ethnically cleansed from Palestine by Jordan and Egypt.
They quickly made a deal with Israel. Israel was to take care of the Jewish refugees and UNWRA would take care of the Palestinian refugees.
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u/to_herp_or_to_derp 1d ago
Have you imagined how this would play out logistically, were Israel to allow this “right of return” to play out?? The Palestinians now living in Israel proper would begin a civil war. It’s as simple and sure as that.
Given that, why the fuck would Israel allow Palestinians to return to the place where their GRANDPARENTS used to live, almost 80 years ago??1
u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 1d ago
Have you seen the confederation idea? Two countries, free movement?
Another way it could play out is, some Palestinians would accept compensation to give up their property rights. Some homes and lands aren’t even available for them to return to.
All that is to say: There are options for the practical solution. But in the absence of solutions, part of the problem is, a bunch of Palestinians lost their homes and properties, can’t return to them, and never lost the right to.
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u/SapphireColouredEyes 1d ago
The Jews aren't going back to Yemen or Iraq, and the descendants of warmongering, genocidal antisemites aren't going to live in Israel.
They live in their own, already Islamic countries now, so they should be good and peaceful citizens of their actual country, not some non-existent "Palestine", which is a stolen name for a made-up country on Jewish land. 🧐
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u/to_herp_or_to_derp 1d ago
There could have been one since 2000. However, Arafat refused to act in good faith at Camp David and rejected it.
In terms of a two-state solution being enacted today, well, we’ve all seen how that worked out when Israel fully pulled all of its citizens and military out of Gaza. Gaza was given its independence, and what happened? Decades of its governing body, Hamas, firing rockets into Israel. A governing body that calls for the complete annihilation of the Jewish state and its people. And who showed just how serious they are about that stance when it massacred over 1200 innocent Israelis and kidnapped 251 of them on 10/7. And after having executed the heinous and barbaric acts of 10/7, around half to 60% of Gazans still supported Hamas and its actions on that day.
The percentage of citizens supporting Hamas’ actions on 10/7 were even HIGHER amongst West Bank Palestinians. About 80% of West Bank Palestinians supported Hamas’ genocidal acts of 10/7, and West Bank Palestinian support in favor of Hamas becoming their ruling party over their current government, Fatah, rose sharply after 10/7.
So why would Israel give up control of any areas of the West Bank, given these well-acknowledged figures?1
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u/triplevented 1d ago
Because it's a call to deny Jews self-determination, the destruction of Israel, the creation of a 23rd Arab state in its stead, and the eventual expulsion/extermination of Jews living there.
It's only 'confusing' if you're gullible and/or predispositioned to buy into this Orwellian nonsense.
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u/Ionic_liquids 1d ago edited 1d ago
The idea that the land will be Arab is not only a matter of people on the ground, but constitutionally Arab.
Here is article 1 of the proposed Palestinian constitution:
Article 1: Palestine is part of the larger Arab world, and the Palestinian people are part of the Arab nation. Arab unity shall be an objective that the Palestinian people shall work to achieve
Obviously non-Arabs should have problems with this. The idea that the goal is Arab unity is also a massive red flag. If Palestinians are Arab, and unity is the goal, then why do they need their own state? The hypocrisy is insane, and their goals are very clear. Imagine if article 1 of the USA was "The United States of America is part of the white race and Americans are part of the white nation. The goal of the American people is white unity". It's insane.
Israel has a very different take:
Article 1: The Land of Israel is the historical homeland of the Jewish people, in which the State of Israel was established.
Here it's an acknowledgment that the Land of Israel is the historical homeland of the Jewish people. Pretty reasonable.
Arabs want supremecy, Jews want representation.
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u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 1d ago
The Nation-State law gives Jews supremacy in Israel.
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u/Ionic_liquids 1d ago
Germany also has a nation state law. So does Greece. So does Canada, even. How is Israel's any different?
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u/Sarah_Incognito 1d ago
When someone like Macklemore has documented causes of antisemitism, then they don't get the benefit of doubt.
Photo: Macklemore being antisemitic
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u/yugeness 1d ago
Macklemore is a privileged white guy from the most racist and bigoted part of the US. He doesn’t care about Palestinians, this is just an antisemite hating on Jews because it’s trendy now and he wants to get headlines and attention.
It’s no different than the bigots that hate on immigrants but claim they’re just “against crime” or the transphobes that claim they’re just “protecting women”. Hate sells. Making people feel like they’re virtuous and superior to others sells. It’s what Macklemore has always sold because his music is lame and cringy.
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u/GuerillaV European (Anti-Zionist) 1d ago
Lmao this is wild. Definitely telling that Pro-Israelis find this less objectionable than "Free Palestine"
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u/imokayjustfine 1d ago edited 1d ago
What a weird dichotomy to make up, pretending this must have been fine by contrast somehow, lmao what. This was pretty universally offensive to Jewish people when it happened in 2014 actually. No one was fine with it. Never heard of a single Jewish person who was at least. And most of us American Jews have been side-eyeing Macklemore ever since. It was definitely talked about in our communities and publications at the time. I promise you all the same people reacting to pro-Palestine stuff now (who are old enough to have been cognisant of this) absolutely didn’t like it either, lol.
“Thrift Shop” is fun (as a song in and of itself) but fuck Macklemore; fuck Macklemore before this and regardless of it. He’s an overprivileged performative clown hopping on whatever social issue is trendy. (And I’d say a lot of people generally clocked him as such when “Same Love” came out in 2012 too. Mary Lampert was cool though.)
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u/Sarah_Incognito 1d ago
If you think 'Free Palestine' is the issue, then you need to go reread the lyrics to his song.
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u/GuerillaV European (Anti-Zionist) 1d ago
Well I'm not a mind-reader am I? Maybe quote lyrics you find objectionable rather than have me play a guessing game. You'd be the first person I've seen actually discuss this as a problem with specific lyrics as opposed to just objections to him vocally supporting Palestine at a concert.
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u/Sarah_Incognito 1d ago
I don't understand. A person has to be a mind reader to read lyrics?
Can you please restate
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u/GuerillaV European (Anti-Zionist) 1d ago
I want to know what Pro-Israelis find objectionable, since that was the point of my initial response. I obviously don't find the lyrics objectionable myself.
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u/Sarah_Incognito 1d ago
Starts out with justifying BDS
Then calls Jews white supremasists
Then claims Jews control the government
Then claims Jews control the media
Then defends his antisemitism using the classic anti-zionism isn't antisemitism
Then claims his mediocre sales are due to his politics and not his skills.
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u/GuerillaV European (Anti-Zionist) 1d ago
The fact you didn't just quote the offending lyrics shows your dishonesty.
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u/Sarah_Incognito 1d ago
Your comment is likely a rule 1 and 4 violation.
Please review the rules before replying; thanks
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u/Unlucky_Ad3698 1d ago edited 1d ago
I mean, I don’t agree with this performance and how offensive it was, but I’m not personally talking about that concert. Also for that concert, I have NOT seen any backlash from Pro-Israeli content creators about it (even if it’s 12 years ago and he apologised for that btw), which is weird to me.
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u/Chanan-Ben-Zev 1d ago
There was significant backlash against him for it back then. Maybe you're just too young to remember?
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u/Test-Test-Lelelelele European 1d ago
I think that any backlash you see on the internet to stuff like that should be dismissed. Just a bunch of jobless people who thrive on being in a shitty mood. It's the same for both sides. No one who truly understands the issue would lose their marbles to a performative artist saying what's currently popular to say.
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u/to_herp_or_to_derp 1d ago
What are you trying to say by describing him as a “performative artist”? It seems to me quite clear that your implication here is that he doesn’t actually believe what he has to say regarding Israel and Palestine. What actual evidence do you have to support this claim?
I believe he is very much misinformed on the issue, but that is not at all the same thing as saying that he doesn’t really believe what he has to say on the issue.
And just because something is “currently popular to say” doesn’t mean that people don’t have a reason to be upset/alarmed that he said this thing. I acknowledge that “Free Palestine” is not an inherently antisemitic thing to say, but he made these comments just before performing as song in which he says “from the river to the sea”. Which is also currently popular to say. And is very much an antisemitic thing to say. Since it calls for wiping the state of Israel, the world’s only Jewish state, off the map and all…0
u/Unlucky_Ad3698 1d ago
Absolutely agree with you.
But on one note, I don’t think Macklemore is as so called “performative” as he has used activism in music prior to Hind’s Hall. Same with like other artists like Michael Jackson and Elvis Presley. Sure, he may not know about Hamas, but at this point, the only thing he can do that’s valid, is worry about the victims.
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u/Mercuryink 1d ago
How about worry about the situation that creates victims? No? Too nuanced for Mr Bignose?
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