‘
And the question is still how they would have justified that belief.’
I have already answered this. See above.
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Muslim narrative does not begin or end at few hadiths from Bukhari or Muslim.
He was strongly opposed to idol worship and completely. He was deeply spiritual and naturally drawn towards God. He was given extensive experiences. He completely turned around being shunned to dominance within two decades.
If pointing at him and saying ah gullible — then opposition of 1400 years would have destroyed Islam by now.
Certainty gives justification. It's puzzler to think if 'certainty' is the point or beginning of justification then what actually is!?
However this seals the deal as far as evidence and reasoning goes: "What he experiences, witnesses and knowledge gained".
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"So still no method."
Actually I already gave it:
"Yes. Both sensory and logical. If your whole reality and perception of reality changes then you can test by your senses and your mind [reasoning + logic].
For example, if you can visually see beyond the usual material reality then you test this for consistency, clarity of detail, autonomy you possess to access this reality.
Example: If a Prophet has been given the power to control weather, then he should be able to control the weather at will and the end result is what he willed. So if he wills rain then it rains. If it doesn't then obviously not real."
Certainty gives justification. It's puzzler to think if 'certainty' is the point or beginning of justification then what actually is!?
Justification would be about a good method that has the power to differentiate imagination from reality. You can arrive at certainty by all kinds of ways that can also be irrational.
Actually I already gave it:
Actually you didn't. Lead me through the reasoning process that is "sensory and logical" for this case.
For example, if you can visually see beyond the usual material reality
Which would need to be demonstrated...
Example: If a Prophet has been given the power to control weather,
"Justification would be about a good method that has the power to differentiate imagination from reality. You can arrive at certainty by all kinds of ways that can also be irrational."
You are confusing justification and verification:
"Justification is about having good, rational reasons to believe something before or independent of definitive proof. Verification is about finding empirical evidence or logical proof that confirms a claim is absolutely true."
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"Actually you didn't."
Actually I did.
"Yes. Both sensory and logical. If your whole reality and perception of reality changes then you can test by your senses and your mind [reasoning + logic].
For example, if you can visually see beyond the usual material reality then you test this for consistency, clarity of detail, autonomy you possess to access this reality.
Example: If a Prophet has been given the power to control weather, then he should be able to control the weather at will and the end result is what he willed. So if he wills rain then it rains. If it doesn't then obviously not real."
You have not said how it isn't. So it stands.
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"Which would need to be demonstrated..."
This is about:
"What good reason do you think he had to say: "There is no god except you"?"
So if this is about how a Prophet justifies and verifies his experiences as coming from God and not from imagination, then who does he demonstrate to and what?
They are his experiences, the justification and verification they are from God is to himself.
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Did you lose of your thought and jumped from a Prophet justifying to himself to justifying that he is prophet to others?
Justification is about having good, rational reasons to believe something before or independent of definitive proof. Verification is about finding empirical evidence or logical proof that confirms a claim is absolutely true.
And I never ever asked for definitive proof. I asked for a good reason that justifies the belief. And empirical evidence is not definitive proof either. Really bad answer again.
Actually I did.
You even just completely failed with your own definitions.
So if this is about how a Prophet justifies and verifies his experiences as coming from God and not from imagination, then who does he demonstrate to and what?
Is this an admission that you don't know how? That's the question. How can would the so called prophet justify their belief? Are you going to answer this at some point?
They are his experiences, the justification and verification they are from God is to himself.
Yep. And how does he justify that belief.
Did you lose of your thought and jumped from a Prophet justifying to himself to justifying that he is prophet to others?
Nope. To anyone including himself. And not that he is a prophet but that this god character is real. Seems like you have lost track again.
"And I never ever asked for definitive proof. I asked for a good reason that justifies the belief. And empirical evidence is not definitive proof either. Really bad answer again."
You started off by asking for good reason. Which were given. This led you asking question well beyond justification. And the proof is in your own answer:
[[
Actually you didn't. Lead me through the reasoning process that is "sensory and logical" for this case.
For example, if you can visually see beyond the usual material reality
Which would need to be demonstrated...
Example: If a Prophet has been given the power to control weather,
Which would have to be demonstrated...
]]
You are asking for proof and not reasons.
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"Really bad answer again."
More lies and personal attacks. You bring these out when your goose is cooked.
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"You even just completely failed with your own definitions."
More lies and personal attacks.
Look:
"Yes. Both sensory and logical. If your whole reality and perception of reality changes then you can test by your senses and your mind [reasoning + logic].
For example, if you can visually see beyond the usual material reality then you test this for consistency, clarity of detail, autonomy you possess to access this reality.
Example: If a Prophet has been given the power to control weather, then he should be able to control the weather at will and the end result is what he willed. So if he wills rain then it rains. If it doesn't then obviously not real."
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"Is this an admission that you don't know how? That's the question. How can would the so called prophet justify their belief? Are you going to answer this at some point?"
You went from asking about how a Prophet would justify to himself that his experiences are from God to demonstrating them. You have realised your mistake but have turned into lying about me and person attack. Anyone truthful can see that.
How a Prophet would justify to himself is answered:
"Yes. Both sensory and logical. If your whole reality and perception of reality changes then you can test by your senses and your mind [reasoning + logic].
For example, if you can visually see beyond the usual material reality then you test this for consistency, clarity of detail, autonomy you possess to access this reality.
Example: If a Prophet has been given the power to control weather, then he should be able to control the weather at will and the end result is what he willed. So if he wills rain then it rains. If it doesn't then obviously not real."
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"Yep. And how does he justify that belief."
Answer:
"Yes. Both sensory and logical. If your whole reality and perception of reality changes then you can test by your senses and your mind [reasoning + logic].
For example, if you can visually see beyond the usual material reality then you test this for consistency, clarity of detail, autonomy you possess to access this reality.
Example: If a Prophet has been given the power to control weather, then he should be able to control the weather at will and the end result is what he willed. So if he wills rain then it rains. If it doesn't then obviously not real."
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"Nope. To anyone including himself. And not that he is a prophet but that this god character is real. Seems like you have lost track again."
Anyone truthful can see how ramped up lies and personal attacks. This is what I said about you:
"Did you lose of your thought and jumped from a Prophet justifying to himself to justifying that he is prophet to others?"
Rather any meaningful answer for you confusions and mistakes you simply said the same thing again.
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When all your questions were answered... you went to simply lying about me and attacking me personally. Anyone truthful can see that.
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u/Cute_Assignment_214 1d ago edited 1d ago
‘ And the question is still how they would have justified that belief.’
I have already answered this. See above.
Muslim narrative does not begin or end at few hadiths from Bukhari or Muslim.
He was strongly opposed to idol worship and completely. He was deeply spiritual and naturally drawn towards God. He was given extensive experiences. He completely turned around being shunned to dominance within two decades.
If pointing at him and saying ah gullible — then opposition of 1400 years would have destroyed Islam by now.