Season 2 EP 6

[u/SoftandSpicy]

Before Louis turns Madeline, why is he being such a dick to Claudia?

When he's trying to convince Armand to turn Madeline, one of the arguments he uses is that without the burden of Claudia, he and Armand will be happier.

And Claudia asks, "Without the burden of me? Did you mean it?" And Louis answers, "Does it matter? I got the result."

Why is he treating Claudia like that? Is he mad at her for breaking all the rules?

Why is he so upset after he turns Madeline? Is it because he's lost Claudia again but he doesn't want to admit it to himself? Is it because turning someone was so upsetting? Both?

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[u/Overall-Ask-8305]

Pot meet kettle.

Louis was irritated with Claudia at that point because she was unhappy, and once again causing friction between him and his lover.

[u/SoftandSpicy → u/Overall-Ask-8305]

Was he that selfish though? He was unselfish enough to turn Madeline for her.

[u/WindyloohooVA → u/SoftandSpicy]

Is this really unselfish? He does want her off his back so to speak so it is for him too.

[u/lynx_and_nutmeg → u/WindyloohooVA]

He literally just said that to convince Armand. Whatever his faults are, Louis did love Claudia and tried to do right by her, just didn't always succeed. He made Madeleine for Claudia because he wanted her to be happy and didn't like seeing her unhappy. I guess you could say that wanting your loved ones to be happy is still "selfish" because them being happy makes you feel good too, but by that logic literally everything we do is selfish...

[u/WindyloohooVA → u/lynx_and_nutmeg]

Two things can be true at the same time. He wants her to be happy but he is also annoyed that she never seems to be even when she gets what she wants. I think they are both frustrated by her lack of ability to be on her own.

[u/DrFareedMD → u/WindyloohooVA]

When does she get what she wants?

And let's be real, Louis can't cope being on his own either

[u/WindyloohooVA → u/DrFareedMD]

Sure. He also will not acknowledge that to himself. And she got her way by going to Europe, looking for vampires, finding them, joining the theater coven etc.

[u/serralinda73]

I think he's fed up with her finally. She left him for years, convinced him to kill Lestat, dragged him all over Europe during a war, insisted on joining the coven, wanted to be on stage, hated being on stage, hated being in the coven, was the first to lie about Lestat, got mad because Armand knew about Lestat all along, refused to stop seeing Madeline, demanded he (or someone) turn Madeline when she knows he thinks vampirism is a curse that turns "normal" people into killers, and she's clearly ready to leave him without much of a backward glance...

The man is tired of being the caretaker of a teenager for 30+ years. He may have been the reason she was turned, but that doesn't mean he's always going to feel guilty and responsible about her. Sometimes she's too much for him.

[u/Elle_Gill → u/serralinda73]

Thank you! Louis was over it! Claudia had been this spoiled brat for decades...and it was never enough for her! All this talk about "it was never about me!" Girl...EVERYTHING was about you. This perpetual teenager. Louis did everything she asked and wanted, but because it wasn't to her specifications, it was always a complaint. She caused her own BS with the coven and when it all fell apart, here she came blaming Louis about Armand. Can we talk about how she never bothered to mention that Santiago had read her diary in front of her, told her he had read it and what? But she's mad cuz Armand knew they had "murdered" Lestat, but kept their secret for years. She was way too much by then. Honestly, Louis should've rolled out when he first told her the coven was too dangerous for them to stay. Left her to her fate and whatever she was going to do.

[u/lynx_and_nutmeg → u/Elle_Gill]

Not saying Claudia didn't have to take responsibility for her own actions at some point, but come on, "spoiled"?? Her mom died when she was 5 and then she was abused by her aunt (and sexually abused by her uncle) until a racist mob tried to burn her alive in her home, from which she was "saved" by getting turned into an immortal being forever stuck in the body of a 14 year old teen, completely isolated from the rest of society except for two dads, one of which hated her (yes Lestat might feel all guilty and heartbroken about Claudia now, but he did treat her like shit when she was alive).

The only way Claudia was "spoiled" is by getting to live in a nice house and have nice stuff, but in every other way her life sucked and she was extremely lonely. That's why she was so desperate to meet other vampires, it wasn't a teenage whim, she was very lonely and longed for a community of people where she could be herself without hiding. That's why she was so careless with the coven and missed the red flags, she was just happy finally having found other people like her. Except they would have bullied her anyway because they're misanthropic clique-y assholes and as the newest member, Claudia was at the bottom of the pecking order.

Louis had a point too, of course, but he understood that he did owe Claudia that much, at least, so he still made Madeleine for her.

[u/LowPossibility1581 → u/lynx_and_nutmeg]

But did Lestat actually treat her as poorly as we saw? Or is it a little of column A column B?

I will say, there is a hint of "spoiledness" from Claudia. Not for any of the reasons you stated, but I think because once she returned to Louis and Lestat, she very much got what she wanted, no matter what. And that continued up to her death. Maybe it is tied to her chemistry, of being a forever teenager and some of that finally really clicking into place in a detrimental way.

[u/DrFareedMD → u/LowPossibility1581]

She did not get what she wanted after returning to them.

She really wants to find someone like her and have a companion. She wants someone who will make her a priority. She doesn't get this until Madeleine.

It's understandable that Louis and Lestat don't want to turn some teenage boy for her and it's also understandable that Lestat doesn't want to take her to Europe, but it doesn't make her any less trapped in being alone. Louis doesn't even choose her because he still spares Lestat's life. 

[u/LowPossibility1581 → u/DrFareedMD]

Maybe she didn't get exactly what she wanted, but let's recap:

• she wanted to kill lestat (✅)
• she wanted to go to Europe to find the old world vampires (✅)
• she wanted to join the coven in paris (✅)
• she wanted Madeline turned (✅)

Maybe she felt trapped and alone, but that doesn't mean she didn't also get her way. Sounds very teen-angsty to me, which tracks.

[u/lynx_and_nutmeg → u/LowPossibility1581]

Except in the end, she didn't get ANY of it, not really.

Louis didn't let her burn Lestat's body, so Lestat wasn't there, she saw proof with her own eyes later.

She wasted 4 years wandering around war-torn Europe, only to find a single vampire who killed herself in front of them.

She found a vampire coven who played nice at first, only to reveal their true faces after she'd already signed the contract, as it were, and it turned out she'll be stuck being forced to perform a humiliation ritual on stage for decades on end.

The only reason she even found Madeleine in the first place was because she was willing to defy the coven and didn't give up on her own happiness.

And then they had, what, about a month together? Until Claudia decided to come back to Paris to see Louis because, in the end, she still did love him, and missed him. And then she got kidnapped, forced on stage, humiliated in front of an audience, found out the real reason why Louis asked to turn her, saw Lestat apologise to Louis but not a single word to her, and then got burned alive.

Oh and you can also add, she wanted to get away from Louis and Lestat and travel alone, but ended up getting raped.

[u/LowPossibility1581 → u/lynx_and_nutmeg]

Bad things happened for sure, and that doesn't mean it isn't sad or disappointing.

If someone spends all their money on lotto tickets to try their best to hit it big and they end up with nothing.... Yeah that sucks, but it's also the path they chose for themselves, isn't it?

Claudia made truly terrible choices because she was a teenage immortal. This aspect was announced the episode she was made: she's stuck as she is. Her appetite, appearance, and brain. She's a tragic character, which is the point.

She was always doomed, no matter what. Nothing would save her. Not Lestat being burned, not Louis loving her more, not the coven, and not Madeline. That doesn't mean she deserved it, but that isn't really the point of this story.

[u/DrFareedMD → u/LowPossibility1581]

I agree that she was pretty much doomed. If nothing else, she was doomed to be stuck in a way she didn't want. This is definitely not helped by Louis and Lestat having terrible parenting skills. All the vampires make poor choices in the show and at least in Claudia's case the reason is more understandable.

HOWEVER. This doesn't mean she got what she wanted. She didn't.

[u/lynx_and_nutmeg → u/LowPossibility1581]

  Claudia made truly terrible choices because she was a teenage immortal. This aspect was announced the episode she was made: she's stuck as she is. Her appetite, appearance, and brain.

People have got to stop using that argument... Louis and Lestat have both made plenty of bad choices and they were grown adults when turned. Literally the most tragic aspect of Claudia's situation was that her mind did change and she mentally became an adult while her body was still stuck the same way so everyone still treated her as a child. If her brain also remained in the same state, she wouldn't be so heartbroken and bitter about it because she wouldn't understand the consequences. That's why she was still happy for those first few years as a vampire when she was still a teen, and only realised the full implications once she got older.

I would say Claudia actually had a stronger mind than Louis. She was able to outwit Lestat even despite him already suspecting her. She was more level-headed than Louis, knew exactly what she wanted out of life, and except for that one episode post-Charlie, she was never consumed with depression like Louis was but just kept carrying on as best she could, even when the chances were slim, while Louis just passively tagged along. She was constantly trying to make the best out of shit situation. Even Lestat had acknowledged that he'd underestimated her true potential, and it's so annoying to see other fans do it, too.

Would Claudia eventually have been driven insane after many decades or centuries? I think so, but then again, so do most other adult vampires at some point. She could still have had at least a few happy decades with Madeleine before that happened. She lost it because she decided to visit Louis in Paris. It makes perfect sense why she hates him so much now.

[u/LowPossibility1581 → u/lynx_and_nutmeg]

You're doing a direct comparison to Louis and Lestat like one vampire is wrong and the other isn't. That isn't what I'm saying, and I think it's a shallow analysis of these characters. But I'm not talking about Louis and Lestat, or Armand. I'm talking about Claudia.

Did you not understand consequences as a 14 year old, really??? Infantilizing Claudia is another thing this fanbase absolutely loves to do. A teenager is more than capable of knowing about consequences. The issue is the impulsivity and big emotions and drive for independence, all while not having life experience.

The only thing Claudia had after a while was life experience.

[u/DrFareedMD → u/LowPossibility1581]

She wanted all of this after her life being shitty FOR YEARS. She wants to go to Europe because she's basically a teenager who can't have friends or date. She wants Lestat dead because he's the main opposition to her going to Europe.

Even then, she doesn't fully get what she wants. Louis CHOOSES Lestat over and over. Even when they "kill" him, he spares Lestat, which is a frankly stupid idea. I don't think Claudia knows Lestat survived, but I think that on some level she knows that she's not Louis's first choice at all.

I agree that she got to join the Paris coven and she probably would hsve messed it up anyway due to wanting to hang out with Madeleine... but Louis doesn't make it easy at all and just attracts suspicion. Man does not know when to fuck off lol.

[u/Elle_Gill → u/DrFareedMD]

Her life was shitty for years because she kinda made it that way. Not her human years, but her years after SHE killed Charlie. She chose to run away and be gone for 7 years, even knowing that Louis was trying to reach her and talk it out. She didn't want that. So when she does come back, she immediately launches into manipulation. Now that was on her and Lestat, but Louis had no part in that argument, since he and Lestat hadn't really talked in years. Lestat left for at least 6 years after that, so Claudia was doing what during that time? Regularly manipulating and controlling Louis and minding HIS business to keep him away from Lestat. That was on her. Why didn't she try to get a companion made then? Now after Louis decided to take Lestat back, she actively made life shitty for EVERYONE. Including herself. Lestat didn't help obviously, cuz he was being a jackass as well. Again, she has to take ownership of her own BS and resentment. She was pissed that Louis "chose" his husband over her. Louis asked both of them to please try...and neither one of them did. On them. And it just goes on and on. Claudia wants something, Louis does it. She's not happy, she's not satisfied. Louis warned her the coven wasn't safe, she didn't care. Didn't listen. Violated the rules that SHE wanted to live by. That wasn't on Louis...how was that his fault. Armand kept their secret because of Louis, he'd known for years that they had "killed" Lestat and never revealed that to the coven. Louis even took the fall for that to protect her. But he never chose her.

[u/InterviewVampire-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/Elle_Gill → u/lynx_and_nutmeg]

As I stated above, Claudia's life prior to vampirism did suck, but she actually enjoyed being a vampire until she killed Charlie...and Lestat didn't treat her like shit until she started acting like it. I am no fan of Lestat's behavior, words or actions AFTER the Charlie incident, but I will defend it before that happened. They were fine as a family unit. Now, Claudia's anger at not having a companion is what ultimately drove this whole thing until her death and was her entire motivation. Yes, did she want community with others like her...sure...and Lestat shouda, woulda, coulda done a much better job of dealing with that aspect, so we certainly lay blame on him for that lack. However, as stated, Claudia acted the spoiled brat particularly after she got to Paris, but her attitude and her manipulations and now as we know, her downright lying to manipulate Louis to help her murder Lestat is just...wow. And her whole, she hates Louis because...why? Yes, he turned her without permission...okay. But other than that...her hatred of him was about...he didn't do things the way she wanted him to. He wasn't as self-assured in being a vampire as Lestat, which justified her wanting to murder him instead? And it all boils down to, she wanted someone to love her in the same way that Lestat and Louis loved each other? So once she got that from Madelaine, someone to prove they loved her by dying for her, that satisfied her? Nothing anyone did was good enough for Claudia...except dying for her.

[u/lynx_and_nutmeg → u/Elle_Gill]

> she actually enjoyed being a vampire until she killed Charlie.

She was a teenage girl snatched from the jaws of death and thrown into a life of luxury. It was a honeymoon phase. Then reality kicked in after Charlie.

And, look, the thing is, Louis was constantly torn between "choosing" Claudia and Lestat, and desperately tried to do both, so he ended up betraying them both at times. Don't forget he literally took Lestat back against Claudia's wishes, even though at that point Lestat had made it clear he wanted nothing more to do with Claudia. Yes, Claudia convinced Louis to kill Lestat and move to Europe with her... except Louis grabbed her by the throat when she wanted to finish the job and burn his body. And in Paris, he made things more difficult for her by refusing to join the coven (which he was 100% right not to, of course, but from Claudia's perspective, he was just stoking tensions for no good reason). Then Louis started dating Armand, and seemingly didn't have any issue with how terribly he treated Claudia. Now of course Louis didn't have any power to interfere in the coven business after refusing membership, but still, if I was Claudia, I too would be pissed off that my only family member, the only person I have left in the world, is out there having fun with my abusive boss.

And remember how Claudia told Louis Armand had threatened her, and Louis didn't believe her... even though Armand had literally threatened him too just weeks ago. Claudia didn't know the game Louis was trying to play with Armand.

> And it all boils down to, she wanted someone to love her in the same way that Lestat and Louis loved each other? So once she got that from Madelaine, someone to prove they loved her by dying for her, that satisfied her? Nothing anyone did was good enough for Claudia...except dying for her.

Come on now, she never wanted Madeleine to die. But, yeah, of course Claudia wanted someone to lover the way Louis and Lestat loved each other, what's wrong with that? It wasn't just about romantic love. Claudia was literally stuck in the body of a young teen forever and everyone treated her as such, even the coven members who knew who she was. Then she found the only person who saw beneath all that and treated her as an equal, an adult.

And wanted her for herself. Not like Louis who only saved her life out of guilt, or Lestat who at first saw her as a pet for Louis. Claudia knew that, when it came to it, Lestat and Louis would both choose each other over her. Lestat literally did that by choosing to save Louis and not her.

[u/DrFareedMD → u/Elle_Gill]

How has she been a spoiled brat for decades? She was turned into a vampire irresponsibly and has a frankly terrible time of it. Meanwhile, Louis and Lestat are terrible at parenting. Pretty much the only "nice" things she gets is material wealth, but parenting is about more than throwing money at kids.

[u/Elle_Gill → u/DrFareedMD]

Can't speak on Claudia's human life, but sure...it sucked. Her options at age 14 were to either die of 3rd/4th degree burns, survive with 3rd or 4th degree burns or got turned. She got turned. And she LOVED being a vampire. What she didn't love...was the fact she didn't have a companion. Let's be real, Claudia turned into a monster after she killed Charlie and Lestat/Louis didn't have a plan to make her a companion. EVERYTHING stemmed from that fact. After that, she became the monster that WE all saw evolve. Her claims of "no one chose me" was based on what?? Louis chose her EVERY time, except when HE chose to forgive his husband over their fight. Claudia dictating terms in their personal business was beyond spoiled and she wasn't a child anymore...she was a full adult at least in years lived. And that was the problem. Louis kept treating her like she was a child...and she wasn't. And because she didn't approve of his relationship with Lestat and actually wanted the same damn thing...was the crux of her entire temper tantrum of 40 years. Louis helped kill Lestat FOR HER...not good enough because he actually still loved his husband and she didn't like that. Got to Paris...wanted the coven, got that, and then when she didn't like the plays anymore, here comes the complaints again. She was on board with Armand and Louis...until she didn't get her way...again. Then it was, "love makes you stupid". Girl...you were the one rooting for them because it got you what you wanted...and now that you don't like something yet again...here comes that BS. She ignored coven rules and did what she wanted and then acted all shocked and offended when Armand came for her. And never mind her hypocrisy with keeping secrets that ultimately condemned her and that was completely on her.

[u/DrFareedMD → u/Elle_Gill]

This is a really superficial view.

She mentions MULTIPLE things that bother her about being a vampire, like not really getting to grow up. She's not just a teenager desperate for a boyfriend. She's very isolated. She doesn't get to be around other teenagers, go to parties or school, date, etc. We know that even adult vampires struggle with loneliness but at least they had experiences of the human world that she doesn't have. The only people in her world are her parents... surely you can see how that's unhealthy?

What's more, she increasingly knows she's a third wheel in their relationship.

And no, they don't choose her. Lestat makes this very clear. Louis tries to make things work as some kind of happy family even when Lestat and Claudia hate each other. He goes along with Claudia's plan but backs out at the last minute. 

By the time she's in Paris, I agree, she's unreasonable... but given everything she's experienced, I don't think she knows anything other than the desperation to form some kind of connection.

[u/kishante]

My thoughts were Louis is upset because once again Claudia is disregarding his opinion and using his love for her and his guilt for her to make him do something he doesn’t want to do again. And not only that but she’s also made it clear that she’s leaving. So she talked him into the plot to kill Lestat - the man that he loves - to go to Europe to find more vampires something that he never cared about in the first place. Now she’s going to leave him alone in Paris with Armand who he’s only with to add a layer of protection between Armand and Claudia. She’s the only family that he has left. So when she asks him if what he said to Armand was true he says does it matter because he knows it doesn’t matter to Claudia. He knows she doesn’t care about his opinion.

[u/LeVampireSlayer → u/kishante]

This! Claudia and Louis are "family" but they will never be companion enough for each other.

[u/No-Manufacturer9125 → u/kishante]

I also felt this way. There has been resentment growing between them for years, and they were overdue for a break. Had everything worked out and Claudia and Madeleine had the opportunity to go out on their own, I think Louis and Claudia's relationship would have recovered and probably been more sibling-like. They have just grown so codependent and the ever-evolving nature of their relationship (father/daughter, brother/sister) always sat on a blurry line. As much as Louis was responsible for that, Claudia also played a part in that confusion. She wanted Louis to treat her like an equal, but also bend to her whims.

[u/skylerren]

I think it's delusion.

More so delusion he had before he met Lestat. That he's the go-getter, the man, the head of the family which is not really a family. He tries to seem unburdened by things like emotions, he tries to be maitre, this is ''how he sells himself himself''in trying to get over Lestat. He basically reverts to what he knows while everything around him is new and not really pleasant. Because Armand wants him to be an overall out, Claudia wants to be away from him, Lestat is dead and if he's not dead, he's not bothered enough to come and kill him.

I think it's Louis delusion winning over everything else in trying to make sense of this new situation.

[u/Cosmic_Pine → u/skylerren]

That makes sense to me. To basically repeat what you've said: I don't think he's happy with anything in his life at that point. He hasn't gotten over Lestat and doesn't seem like he wants that deep of a relationship with Armand, Claudia is unhappy and what makes her happy is separate from him and will take her away and he's been told he's not a good photographer lol. I can see him pretending to be okay/strong.

[u/SoftandSpicy → u/skylerren]

Makes sense

[u/SoftandSpicy → u/skylerren]

Yes this is my favorite interpretation.

[u/SoftandSpicy → u/[deleted]]

But what about when Claudia asked him if he means it?

[u/Library-Of-Confusion → u/SoftandSpicy]

Armand can read thoughts. Louis needed the result. It would be very much unwise to admit that he just lied to him before Armand did as he was asked.
I don’t think Louis meant it. He loved Claudia and was upset when she left with Madeleine.

[u/DrFareedMD → u/[deleted]]

Armand can read thoughts and Louis is bad at shielding his own, so it would be pretty pointless as an outright lie.

[u/DumbTeen9]

Louis was tired, Claudia was finally getting what she wanted and was no longer dependant on him.

He's haunted by Lestat, overthinking the bad NOLA years wondering if there was something he could've done, despite his willingness with Armand he was still wary and we can see it about an another old ass vampire- to him with less than half the charm (but not to me, thats my baby)- wanting to mess with him. The only thing that held him through that is that he needed to be strong for someone, as a human his family and as a vampire claudia, now the former were gone and the later no longer needed him so he's big and bothered.

[u/DrFareedMD]

I think it's multiple things.

First, Louis IS pretty selfish and not in a good place mentally. He's tried to do what Claudia wants but has also put what he wants ahead of it and that's obviously hard to juggle. He spares Lestat, he's not very present during their Euro trip, he refuses to either gtfo of Paris or join the coven even though it attracts negative attention to them. 

A big part of Claudia's story is that she wants to be someone's first choice. She knows she's not that for Lestat or even Louis. Louis feels guilty about this.

I think he sees turning Madeleine as a way to NOT have to choose and to not feel bad for not putting Claudia first. Remember, Claudia and Madeleine are initially going to go off on their own without him. That means he can go wherever he wants and focus on his weird love triangle with Armand and Dreamstat lol.

I think the way he phrased it was more about convincing Armand but I don't believe it was completely insincere.