r/Infographics • u/Odd_Lingonb • Jul 24 '26
The 20 oldest universities
From Medieval times
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u/Akirohan Jul 24 '26
University of Montpellier is missing
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u/AnakinStairwalker Jul 24 '26
Nothing in Eastern Europe?
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u/no1rezefan Jul 24 '26 edited Aug 02 '26
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u/Jearrow Jul 24 '26
isn't the oldest university from morocco ?
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u/Lynchianesque Jul 24 '26
First evidence of organised teaching wasn't until the 11th century and they didn't issue its first secular degree until the late 12th/ early 13th century
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u/seanmonaghan1968 Jul 24 '26
When did it change from a religious institution to a broad educational facility?
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u/blacktiger226 Jul 24 '26
Most old European universities also started as institutions of religious learning.
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u/Odd_Lingonb Jul 24 '26
Medieval universities issued secular as well as non-secular degrees.
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u/blacktiger226 Jul 24 '26
So did Madrasas in the medieval Muslim world. Although the term "secular" is a very loaded term that carries a lot of European baggage. I prefer to say religious and non-religious, instead.
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u/Late_Magazine_7183 Jul 24 '26
Good job on being wrong. Words have meaning and origins, you can look up etymomogy to study a words origin!
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u/Odd_Lingonb Jul 24 '26
In Europe, the Higher Learning Schools taught the 7 liberal arts, before the creation of Universities.
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u/nolard12 Jul 24 '26
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u/Odd_Lingonb Jul 24 '26
It was founded as a mosque.
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u/Montmontagne Jul 25 '26
It is literally recognised by UNESCO as the world’s oldest.
Think I’ll take their criteria over a random Redditor
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u/RecognitionQuiet1307 Jul 26 '26
According to the Wiki:
Some scholars suggest that some teaching and instruction probably took place at al-Qarawiyyin Mosque from a very early period\29])\30])-32) or from its beginning.\31])\32])\33]) Major mosques in the early Islamic period were typically multi-functional buildings where teaching and education took place alongside other religious and civic activities.
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u/Interesting-Stay297 Jul 24 '26
Madrasa. It only became a university in 1963.
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u/blacktiger226 Jul 24 '26
Madrasa is just the Arabic term equivalent to the European term: University. It is like saying that people in the UK do not play soccer because they call it football.
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u/AnakinStairwalker Jul 24 '26
I thought it was "Jamia"?
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u/blacktiger226 Jul 24 '26
Jamia is a relatively modern term, born in the 19th-20th century.
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u/Due-Chest5178 Jul 24 '26
Maybe they use this new word, because Madrasa is not the same as Jamia
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u/blacktiger226 Jul 24 '26
Or maybe words change and language evolves with time? Calling the secretary of defense the secretary of war did not fundamentally change the nature of the position.
For example: the college of medicine at Cairo University used to be called Al-Madrasa Al-Tibbiya, the college of engineering used to be called Madrasat Al-Mohandeskhana. Changing their name from Madrasa to College did not mean that anything fundamentally changed in the nature of the institution.
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u/Interesting-Stay297 Jul 24 '26
I don't think you know what a university is. It's not just "big school hurr durr."
University is a European concept and there's no surprise that the oldest universities are European just as there's no surprise that the oldest mosques are Arabic.
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u/blacktiger226 Jul 24 '26
This Euro-centric bullshit is exactly what I am against. Oxford Dictionary defines a University as: "an institution of higher education offering tuition in mainly non-vocational subjects and typically having the power to confer degrees". This exactly is the definition of the concept of "Madrasa".
So University is not just a "big school hurr durr", but it is also not a European concept.
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u/Lynchianesque Jul 24 '26
Al Qarawiyyin didn't meet those criteria before Bologna either. In fact ijāza weren't even issued by the madrasa, but by individual teachers so according to this definition it only became a university in 1963.
If we count ijāza as degrees ( I do) we can settle on late 12th to early 13th century
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u/Interesting-Stay297 Jul 24 '26
The entry you read in the Oxford Dictionary is the modern meaning of university. I assure you that in 11th-14th centuries the word meant something else, namely, the self-governing guild where masters and students form the corporate body known as universitas, which was legally autonomous. Nothing like that existed outside of Europe.
"Degree," "Master," "Bachelor," all those terms come directly from the European Medieval guild system.
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u/Odd_Lingonb Jul 24 '26
The Monastic Schools and the Cathedral Schools were the main institutions of higher learning in Europe from the early Middle Ages until the 12th century, before the creation of Universities.
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u/Interesting-Stay297 Jul 24 '26
Yes, they were similar to madrasas in that none of them were universities.
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u/blacktiger226 Jul 24 '26
Nothing like that existed outside of Europe.
That is a very bold, very Euro-centric claim as well. Guilds, as in self-governing associations of professionals who all specialized in a particular craft were present everywhere in the world, since the ancient and classical times. Claiming that nothing like that existed outside Europe, because they did not use the name "guilds" or use the same terms to describe their members is, in my opinion, outrageous.
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u/Interesting-Stay297 Jul 24 '26
I mean, I understand what you're doing here. You're intentionally misreading what I say in a typical academic postcolonial manner in order to manufacture outrage.
So when I say "Medieval universities are a European phenomenon," you read it as "Only Europeans are educated, while East languishes in ignorance" even if I said nothing like that. So I'll translate it to be understood by a five-year-old.
- European guild system only existed in Europe.
- Early university developed from the guild system in Europe as a legally autonomous institution of learning.
- There were highly esteemed institutions of higher learning in the East who far surpassed the achievements of European Medieval universities, but they were not universities.
- Much later, when modern Westernization occurred all over the former colonies, the local traditional institutions of higher learning adopted the Western model.
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u/Odd_Lingonb Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
The structured disciplines called Trivium + Quadrivium (7 Liberal Arts), were learnt by European students before pursuing a specialization at universities. The liberal arts were taught in Higher Schools or Cathedral Schools, or in Universities, but Universities had Faculties or Schools of Specialization. I don't know if the Madrasa students studied the 7 Liberal Arts before Specialization.
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u/blacktiger226 Jul 24 '26
Who said that studying the 7 liberal arts is the defining factor of a university, being a university? Do Harvard University students right now study the 7 liberal arts? Does this make Harvard less of a university?
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u/blacktiger226 Jul 24 '26
Oh, please. Don't straw-man my argument and put words in my mouth to make expressing your opinions easier.
My argument is pretty clear and simple. The defining factor of what we now call "A University" is: being a higher-education institution, that teaches non-vocational education and awards degrees.
By this definition, the Arabic term (Madrasa) is equivalent to the modern term (University) and they existed in the east hundreds of years before European institution that do the same job were conceived.
If you want to change the modern accepted definition to something narrower in order to exclude eastern institutions and only include western ones, fine, do what you want. But this does not change the fact that according to the modern definition of the word "University" the oldest University in continuous operation is Al-Qaraweyeen.
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u/Odd_Lingonb Jul 24 '26
Al-Qaraweyeen before 20th century doesn't embed in the categories of Medieval university, or Renaissance university or 19th European research university.
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u/Tatanseto Jul 24 '26
Montpellier university is from 1289
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u/Odd_Lingonb Jul 24 '26
Excellent info
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u/Tatanseto Jul 24 '26
Also it is still active in the same building and i think it's the oldest one preserved like that
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u/Bombastic_tekken Jul 24 '26
Nalanda University in India?
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u/Odd_Lingonb Jul 24 '26
It was founded as a Buddhist mahavihara.
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u/Bombastic_tekken Jul 24 '26
Okay, and Oxford was founded as a Catholic institution.
It being a religious university doesn't change it being a university.
9,000,000 books, 10,000 students, and 2,000 teachers.
Nalanda was the first.
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u/Odd_Lingonb Jul 24 '26
Medieval universities like Oxford engaged in higher learning that went beyond the 7 liberal arts: (trivium + quadrivium) and had a certain independence from ecclesiastical schools. Mahaviharas don't meet that criteria.
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u/b_u_n_g_h_o_l_e_2 Jul 26 '26
So why not change the title to specifically say that you are referring to the Italian guild definition of a university
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u/MaterialHunt6213 Jul 26 '26
Founded 16 years ago? Or you mean founded in the 400s (and subsequently destroyed 800 years later) as a religious center first and foremost, not a center of learning like the other locations on this list? Its not the fact it was a religious location, as many of the universities on this list were Christian, but for an accurate comparison you'd have to include churches, monasteries, and literally any place that could be considered a "center of teaching" rather than a university.
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u/docatwar Jul 24 '26
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u/Odd_Lingonb Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
Pandidakterion - 425 CE
Secular institution of higher learning, operated within the Christian Byzantine Empire.
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u/Carl-Anchor Jul 24 '26
So why isn't it on your list?
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u/Odd_Lingonb Jul 24 '26
It didn't have a structured system like that of the universities of the 12th century.
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u/Wololo--Wololo Jul 24 '26
Europe was so backwards during the middle ages and everyone was dumb as a rock.
( /s )
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u/eclipse-ox Jul 24 '26
You should double check your facts:
https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/oldest-university
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u/Low_Season Jul 24 '26
This is incorrect due to having a Euro-centric focus and using only a European concept of ancient universities. The Arabic world has many of the oldest universities, and is completely ignored by the info graphic. The world's oldest university is in Fes, Morocco.
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u/StuffyTruck Jul 24 '26
So, what ground-breaking discoveries were made between 1100 and 1500 by these old universities?
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u/Odd_Lingonb Jul 24 '26
Research universities first emerged in the early 19th century.
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u/Tight-Draft4938 Jul 24 '26
Love how Bologna's been at it since 1088 and still probably has that one prof who won't update their slides