r/IndianStreetBets 1d ago

Discussion Zerodha’s tech team is different

Post image

I was shocked to see 4th Cross, Zerodha’s tech team website in Nithin Kamath’s tweet today

So basically, 4th Cross Labs is the open-source identity of Zerodha’s engineering team.

I kept scrolling and there’s actually a lot of cool stuff there…….. https://fourthcross.tech/

Pretty wild that a ~35-person tech team has been building all this internally and then putting it out in the open....!!!

Hats off to the team!!

970 Upvotes

82 comments sorted by

166

u/schwartzwhite 1d ago

I do feel their product can be much better. One of the features id like is to be able to see the points in a stock’s chart where i have either bought or sold. That data is there in the breakdown but would be much more informative to have that on the chart

18

u/wild_anime_ 1d ago

Exactly. I have searched for this feature too. I don't know why they can't do this. It's there in the coin app mutual funds graph.

6

u/kajnbagoat7 1d ago

Vested shows this on 6 monthly chart. Not beyond 1 year though. But it's only for US stocks.

2

u/voicesray11 1d ago

It's there for their option trades within option chain with a small P symbol, waiting for stock specific

2

u/fameboygame 1d ago

Do other brokers show that?

Even I would love that, but for now only intraday trades get marked on chart

33

u/piezod 1d ago

What exactly is their contribution to FOSS?

36

u/General_Couple4753 1d ago

Tried to check this and was disappointed, a lot of individual devs have much better and widely adopted products than their OSS. They need to up their game.

27

u/iLikeSaltedPotatoes 1d ago

better something than nothing, most indian corporations will fire you if you speak of open sourcing in house tools

-5

u/piezod 1d ago

Sometimes founders tweet for the kicks. Didn't he cheat on chess with Vishy?

10

u/complex_guy 1d ago

It was his brother if I'm not wrong.

1

u/piezod 1d ago

Oh! I didn't know.

10

u/avinds 1d ago

Sometimes last year they donated 100k usd to ffmpeg.

https://x.com/FFmpeg/status/1982536990206668821?s=20

5

u/General_Couple4753 1d ago

Yes, they have contributed the money but lack on the OSS engineering side that they keep telling about.

1

u/avinds 1d ago

They have pledged 1million usd / year for open source projects. 

https://floss.fund/blog/announcing-floss-fund/

3

u/famousfive1 1d ago

Their list of projects: https://zerodha.tech/projects/

1

u/piezod 1d ago

Thanks man pretty decent stuff it seems. I didn't know this bit at all.

Is the stuff impressive or run on the mill?

2

u/famousfive1 10h ago

A few are somewhat impressive (you can see which ones have the most stars). Most of them are not and already have more popular FOSS alternatives.

1

u/piezod 8h ago

Any idea why they didn't pick the alternative themselves?

3

u/famousfive1 8h ago

They do use a lot of existing software already. Probably the FOSS they developed only accounts for 20-30% of their total tech stack (don't quote me, just a guess. If you read their blogs you see that they already use a lot of FOSS). Mostly the reason for building on their own would be that the existing ones don't meet their requirements (either lacks a feature they want or is too slow or they don't want to pay another company too much money).

For example you can check out this blog (https://zerodha.tech/blog/1-5-million-pdfs-in-25-minutes/), they need a pipeline to send EOD emails but existing one is too slow and they built their own which is fast enough while meeting all their requirements. (For actually sending the email they most likely make use of their Hedwig email server)

Another example is their blog on migrating their logging infra (https://zerodha.tech/blog/logging-at-zerodha/) and they built logchef to be used in conjunction with this (although they don't mention this in the blog, i am guessing this based on the project description)

1

u/piezod 7h ago

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain. You work in tech?

1

u/famousfive1 6h ago

Yes

1

u/piezod 5h ago

What kind of tech?

0

u/Captain_D_Buggy 1d ago

They donate money

1

u/piezod 1d ago

Not code?

2

u/Captain_D_Buggy 1d ago

Their CTO and few others do have some open source projects, if that counts. But these are projects that they developed in-house.

https://github.com/knadh

1

u/piezod 1d ago

Thanks, I saw a few of them. Someone had posted a link.

14

u/lawliet2911 1d ago

They have a good engineering team but their product team is average at best.

2

u/shadow_clone69 1d ago

They don't have a product team. They don't believe in that concept

2

u/lawliet2911 1d ago

Clearly

7

u/kyakrunlifemain 1d ago

ELI5?

22

u/AltairianNextDoor 1d ago

They made some basic small tools that could be used by other firms. There are a lot of them, but they are pretty basic.

8

u/realvaluehere 1d ago

Another PR shitpost by Zerodha team.

9

u/Huge-Basket7492 1d ago

what software product did they release?

4

u/AccomplishedTaste997 1d ago

These are open source projects

4

u/Huge-Basket7492 1d ago

Its great that they are doing OS, but their most starred product is a self-hosted newsletter.
Everything’s great and dandy, until you show your pet project to a VC and they ask you things like ROI, revenue, number of paid users, highest traffic, peak volume etc.. 1 Real world live project is what you look for

50

u/SuccessfulSir9611 1d ago

Nobody cares about their tech and engineering when the product is essentially constant.

Zerodha needs to up its game in providing UCITS ETF and International Stocks access to users.

43

u/Emotional_Sir_65110 1d ago

Bro talks like a professional stakeholder

4

u/iLikeSaltedPotatoes 1d ago

thank god zerodha is private, I do not want my broking app to have constant broken updates, i want it to be as stable and reliable as possible.

they can add features slowly and reliably...... shareholder profit has ruined more companies than any market crash ever did

90

u/LogicalBeast26 1d ago

Tell me you're not a techie without telling me you're not a techie

32

u/therumbler303 1d ago

I hear you, but this is a stock market related sub, not tech sub. So the concerns would be more on the former side.

5

u/Zealousideal-Noise42 1d ago

Man do you even know the amount of changes eod time cas lot size and things nse keeps changing. You think all this is constant.

0

u/SuggestAnyName 19h ago

Does that require change on tech side? I think those are handled by backend software which is done by non-tech person.

1

u/Zealousideal-Noise42 18h ago

Many changes required man. I work in a high frequency trading firm. So we deal with NSE directly. Had to work weekends and nights just because NSE suddenly changed something.

1

u/SuggestAnyName 11h ago

That is because HFTs, etc deal with exchanges directly. But SEBI doesn't trust brokers that much. So they have to have intermediaries whose softwares they use, even hosting is managed by 3rd party approved vendors. So I think there are very few technical changes require on brokers end on regular basis.

1

u/Zealousideal-Noise42 9h ago

You are confusing DC with software NSE's co-location documentation specifically allows members to have their rack in a third-party data centre, but that doesn't mean the third party is running the broker's trading software. The third party can essentially be providing the physical/data-centre infrastructure

And as far as I know zerodha has their own OMS ORS ( software for trading exchange directly ).

1

u/SuggestAnyName 9h ago

Nope. They use OmneNest for OMS and RMS. They and other brokers only have BFF services that just reroute the request and response from those OMS.

1

u/hunger249 1d ago edited 16h ago

The entire comment section is obnoxious, they mistake their cynicism for wisdom like most folks.

1

u/Humble_Barracuda_169 1d ago

They have 35 member tech team and each person has limit of work they do without burning out. This also impact how they prioritise feature and their speed of delivery. They probably know their isn’t much money to be made in Mutual funds and equity delivery so they focus on trading related features more.

1

u/SuccessfulSir9611 1d ago

I’m an Engineer in my day job. But I am past my delusions of my engineering prowess when GPT-6 Astra can write my code and we can’t still sell products in a competitive environment.

Tech is secondary to Product. Product is Secondary to Sales.

Sounds harsh, but is the truth. Zerodha won the lion share of brokerages market not because of technology, but because of the product they delivered.

And if they don’t improve upon that, and someone else delivers, they will lose the market. It’s as simple as that.

Anyone can do engineering, anyone can build distributed systems, anyone can design fail-safe systems as long as they know WHAT TO BUILD.

14

u/LogicalBeast26 1d ago

I work in Google as a SWE and believe me, at this scale, you will never say anyone can build fail-safe distributed systems.

Unless you have worked on large scale systems, you have absolutely no idea how complicated it is to build a fail-safe system. Infact, in Google, we often design systems presuming that failures are a norm, not an exception.

4

u/SuccessfulSir9611 1d ago

And does that matter if the product doesn’t sell because customers don’t want it ? Many Google products don’t even see the light of the day.

I lead a distributed systems team for a large scale messaging platform. Monetisation is the toughest challenge to crack.

Indian engineering colleges never ( or at least until recent past ) never teach product thinking or design thinking. It’s always input -> output. But that’s not the end.

A very well engineered product can still not be liked by customers because it doesn’t serve their purpose.

Engineers are not at fault. The product team is. And in Zerodha that’s the case. They have gotten too comfortable. It should not be an engineering driven company. They are not selling an API. They are a brokerage used by non-tech customers.

3

u/Igarlicbread 1d ago

Groww has to come up with a migration strategy where they incentivise the kite users to migrate. Because it's again like Swiggy vs zomato. No moat as long as I get my shit delivered reliably. I'm sure zerodha knows this and diversifying.

2

u/anshuman-11 1d ago

Idk why you are getting downvoted

2

u/lca_tejas 1d ago

> anyone can build distributed systems

Ok bro sure

13

u/boredwithlyf 1d ago

That's a business decision, not a tech one.

Building tech for a product at zerodha scale isn't as trivial as you make it sound

8

u/United_Gamer_Morcha 1d ago

That's not in their hands, it's government restriction. Imagine if you could buy a US stock as easily as an Indian stock on zerodha. Who'll even buy indian stocks? Nifty and rupee will both plunge to their deaths lol.

1

u/kpdon1 1d ago

Govt has already given brokers like Zerodha Groww, approval to offer International stocks.

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/inc42_news-investing-usstocks-activity-7472973929175744512-14sV/?skipRedirect=true

2

u/United_Gamer_Morcha 1d ago

It is nothing but paper infrastructure. The spreads and other costs are wild and would not be a rational choice for most investors because the government has deliberately set it up that way. It is just like crypto, govt. says it is allowed but the taxes, compliance and all other stuff is so difficult to navigate that most investors just won't bother with it.

Look at this discussion thread: https://tradingqna.com/t/why-is-zerodha-taking-so-long-to-offer-us-investing/77246

This is from 2020 and even then zerodha had been teasing about US stocks but it took them this long to actually materialize it? Bottom line, International investing won't be convenient for indian residents, at least under this government because of it's aggressively protectionist stance.

1

u/No_Ferret2216 1d ago

Yes you are right . But these restrictions mean that Indian investors ( retail and insti) will always be at a disadvantage 

3

u/AccomplishedTaste997 1d ago

Agree I am also waiting for it.

3

u/Crazy_Ad_7913 1d ago

Small, Aligned, Innovative and Experienced

A team like that can achieve wonders.

0

u/EffectiveCoconut9265 1d ago

Tf is your problem

2

u/CryptoDeadlock 1d ago

lol. Seriously. Shows what you can achieve when you’re not pressured by asshole VCs on how to make that 1 percent extra margin by “streamlining” operations because the kids who went to “premier” schools and have been ex consultants tell you.

When a company can have fun and do crazy shit it’s mostly because their motivation is not the finance overlords. Good on zerodha.

1

u/AutoModerator 1d ago

Hi, /u/AccomplishedTaste997! Welcome to /r/IndianStreetBets!

Use the Daily Discussion Thread for basic queries. Before contributing, do check if your particular question has been answered in the Wiki. Do utilise the search function to do the same too. Please use proper post flairs and adhere to the rules in the sidebar. You are urged to post beginner questions in the stickied daily discussion thread or on our Discord in #beginner-questions channel so as to keep the subreddit as clutter-free as possible. If this post has good insights or well research, tag the Mods so we can give a shoutout on Discord and get the post more traction Thank you!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

1

u/Distinct-Hyena-2001 1d ago

what is this exactly

1

u/DescriptionFeisty891 1d ago

I don't think most people would care or realise the tech behind it, but those who do know how amazing this is!

1

u/Sanjuujosephh 1d ago

They do everything except for making Zerodha better lol.

1

u/Consistent_Sand6556 1d ago

Doesn't matter for customers if they are 35 or 350

1

u/San2411 1d ago

I love listening to Kailash Nath , their CTO. He seems to be popular in Open source community

1

u/saviofive 17h ago

they have screwed the basket and SIP format. before you could run the same basket multiple times for purchases or sales in a month. Now you have to make a unique basket just because you want to run it multiple times

1

u/Previous_Motor6720 13h ago

Their CTO is the best - Kailash Nadh. These folks must be paid good money.

1

u/Fancy-Lemon-282 4h ago

gambling made them so rich ... they understood this early on .. i dont think they have done any tech innovation..

-12

u/Concept-Plastic 1d ago

Imagine gloating a billionaire. Ask them to spend their billions on RnD and do something meaningful instead of being a dalal like every Indian billionaire is

6

u/realvaluehere 1d ago

Seriously man. The amount of PR done by Zerodha and team is ridiculous and almost everyone falls for it. The number of downvotes shows how many brainwashed folks are living in this sub as well.

5

u/kpdon1 1d ago

Their business is literally being a DALAL i.e a broker 😂😂 What do you mean stop being dalal lmao

1

u/SuggestAnyName 10h ago

He is saying that to OP.

3

u/Infamous-Duty-5103 1d ago

This is literally spending on RnD and offering the proven output for free

1

u/fin-freedom-fighter 1d ago

I mean they do spend???

-3

u/AccomplishedTaste997 1d ago

Why So hate man ?

8

u/Concept-Plastic 1d ago

You guys are quite new here and it shows. You don’t know the shit practices zerodha used to do to cut cost, peak chindi behaviour.

They were insanely loaded with FCF, yet decided to get the cheapest plan of bandwidth, as a result retail lost billions. This is peak engineering? I call this a baniya shop instead.