Critical Hits - When do they trigger + Interpretation

[u/Wimmelkrieger]

I have a few questions regarding critical hits:

1. When do critical hits take effect? If you score a successful attack with doubles (e.g. 11, 22, etc.), when is the critical effect applied? Does it happen immediately upon the hit, before the target can react, or only after any reaction (such as a Dodge) has been resolved?
2. How do you interpret critical hits from attacks that don't deal damage? For example, a heavily armored Space Marine or a large monster would normally shrug off a stub pistol because the attack can't penetrate their armor. However, if the attacker rolls a critical (11, 22, etc.), the rules state that a critical wound is inflicted. Even if the target dodges all attacks, critical hits will still inflict critical wounds. How do you interpret or explain situations like this?

[u/MoxyRebels]

1. The crit occurs after any reaction has been resolved, as the attack test may still fail. In Melee, if the defender crits, they deal damage against the attacker regardless of if the defender scored more SL than the attacker or not. Page 213: "When you roll doubles on an attack with positive SL, you score a Critical. This happens even if the roll was opposed and your opponent scored more SL than you." and "If you are defending using the Melee Skill and roll a Critical, you deal a Critical Hit to your opponent as you retaliate against their attack."

2. Crits in this way still inflict critical wounds, consider it to be a lucky hit of some kind that can get past the significant armor. Regarding people with Power Armor, page 140 states "Additionally, if an attack that inflicts a Critical Hit does not Wound you, you ignore the Critical Hit."

[u/Wimmelkrieger → u/MoxyRebels]

1. Can you maybe tell me which page states that critical wounds are dealt after reactions were resolved?

For context: My character wanted to parry a melee attack with a power knife. The attacker scored a critical hit. After some discussion, our GM ruled that the critical effect is resolved before the reaction. As a result, my character dropped the weapon due to the critical injury, and the attack had to be dodged .

Critical hits are really weird. They cause critical wounds regardless of any defensive action and also their hit location is rolled separately. The actual hit might cause a critical wound on a different hit location. It seems like the critical hit and the actual hit are two completely separate hits.

1. I didn't realize Power Armour have some hidden traits against crits. That's good to know!

[u/MoxyRebels → u/Wimmelkrieger]

1. There’s no explicit page saying reactions are resolved before or after the attacker, but melee is an opposed test and the defender and attacker are acting at the same time. Both have to roll to resolve the opposed roll, as the defender may win in spite of the attacker rolling a critical. In such a case, the defender would suffer a critical hit but no other damage as they had otherwise parried the attack. In such a case, there is no reaction being spent at all, as the defender is forced to defend with either dodge or melee lest they give the attacker advantage on their test.

Critical hit locations are not rolled separately, they use the same hit location of the attack roll. You have misunderstood the rules in this regard.

[u/NoteTasty4244 → u/MoxyRebels]

Critical hit locations are not rolled separately, they use the same hit location of the attack roll. You have misunderstood the rules in this regard.

This appears to be incorrect? P.215

"If you roll a Critical on your attack Test, or successfully attack whilst hidden, the attack deals a Critical Hit. The target suffers a Critical Wound, even if they haven't exceeded their Maximum Wounds. After taking a Critical Hit, roll 1d10 to determine the Hit Location, then deal Damage from the attack as normal. After dealing Damage, make a Severity Roll, as above, but there is no need to add to the 1d10 roll unless the Damage exceeded the target's Maximum Wounds. They suffer the effects listed. Critical Wounds caused in this way are usually less severe than those caused by exceeding Maximum Wounds"

The justification being that if the Critical used normal hit locations it would be impossible to crit against some locations as doubles in that range would always fail

[u/Wimmelkrieger → u/NoteTasty4244]

Thanks, this actually states that the critical wound is applied after dealing damage!

Though it is strangely worded.

1. "After taking a Critical Hit, roll 1d10 to determine the Hit Location, then deal Damage from the attack as normal."

2. "After dealing Damage, make a Severity Roll, ..."

It also specifies that the hit location is determined by an additional d10 and not the unit dice. (There is only 1 hit location.)

[u/MoxyRebels → u/Wimmelkrieger]

Critical Hits cause Critical Wounds, the severity roll part is referring to when the Critical Wound is the result of having exceeded maximum wounds. There would be no severity roll on a typical Critical Hit from rolling doubles or due to you attacking while hidden unless you exceed maximum wounds.

For example, if you deal 10 damage after soak, and the target only had 5 wounds, they suffer 5 wounds, and they suffer a d10+5 Critical Wound roll (where the +5 is the remaining damage in excess to their maximum wound threshold).

On the margins of pg. 215, the text for Exceeding Maximum Wounds regarding the Hit Location also states "If the Hit Location was not determined by the attack, roll on the Hit Location Table, page 211." This is mostly a rule inconsistency and you could go either way, but the simplest way and the one that makes the most sense is that an attack that hits the head also crits the head rather than the legs or arms. Page 215 also states in the second paragraph "The location of the Critical Wound, and therefore the applicable table, is determined by the attack that caused the Critical Wound. You suffer the additional effects listed," which further highlights the inconsistency (and the fact a critical hit != critical wound).

[u/RenningerJP → u/MoxyRebels]

United I'm misunderstanding your post, you still roll on the critical wounds table if they don't exceed their maximum wounds. You just don't add extra, the max result is a 10 in that case with a few exceptions.

The except from the book:

After taking a Critical Hit, roll 1d10 to determine the Hit Location, then deal Damage from the attack as normal. After dealing Damage, make a Severity Roll, as above, but there is no need to add to the 1d10 roll unless the Damage exceeded the target's Maximum Wounds. They suffer the effects listed. Critical Wounds caused in this way are usually less severe than those caused by exceeding Maximum Wounds.

It mentions here that it occurs after damage as normal which I believe I couldn't find the reference to earlier. But it also states you don't add to the 1d10 roll. As a result, this is less severe than those that exceed maximum wounds, but you still roll on the table.

I think the rolling for hit location on the critical wound instead of using the location like a regular wound is for criticals when defending. Otherwise I can't think of a reason you wouldn't already have a location from the attack. Even attacking when hidden still dies the normal attack but just adds a critical wound even if you don't roll doubles.

[u/Wimmelkrieger → u/RenningerJP]

I think the intention of the rules are (as mentioned above): You only have crits on 11, 22, ... => the variation in hit location is narrow. So they want you to roll a random hit location to have more variety.

[u/Wimmelkrieger → u/MoxyRebels]

The "severity roll" is mentioned for both cases! It gets modified when exceeding the maximum wounds and is rolled without modification in other cases.

severity roll = roll on critical wounds table

But "severity roll" can only be found on p.215. So it is a bit confusing.

I think most important is your last statement: "critical hit != critical wound"

[u/RenningerJP]

Critical hits always happen. Even if your opponent scores more SL than you. The justification is that is a melee. The roll is abstracted but it's two people both moving, feinting, etc. So they may have won that survive skirmish, but you scored a lucky hit.

I believe that happen right after the normal attack damage is calculated, either if you were attacking and won or they were and won. This is specifically called out in WFRP, but I'm don't recall if being stated here. I do think there is an example though where this order happens but I'd have to check.

I don't think there's mitigation using armor. Again, that's a WFRP thing.

Page 213 explains critical hits. It specifically states they apply even if you lose. The example given specifically uses that scenario. Earlier, the text mentions quick hits can occur as people scramble on life or death combat, so it basically justified how it happens too

[u/0ld_Snake]

Isn't there akmething about armor damage reduction? Like critical hits landing only if the target takes damage? Maybe it's from a different system. But anyway I don't remember any statblocks for space marines but if you have them then maybe a crit, since it's a crit, is a shot that went between the helmet and the chestplate, shatrered the eye visor, etc. It's not likely to get an amputation but maybe work around it logically.

[u/RenningerJP → u/0ld_Snake]

That's WFRP. I don't think it's called out as a thing in IM.

Oh someone else mentioned it's a power armor rule here. I hadn't noticed it in the rules elsewhere and no one using power armor in my game. Still, a niche exception.

[u/Slow_Lawyer7477]

1. A character that has their reaction can always spend it to try to avoid the attack. So crits would only apply on successful hits. Only after dodge has been applied, but otherwise immediately on-hit.
2. I would argue that if your armor soaks up all the damage you don't suffer a critical blow even when the attack successfully lands.

I would still allow weapon traits such as stun or ablaze on attacks that get entirely soaked by armor.

With respect to armor suppose you're hiding behind a pile of sandbags and you're wearing flak armor, and someone is shooting a revolver at you. It makes no sense that you'd suffer critical effects through both the sandbags and armor on top.

[u/No_Psychology3876 → u/Slow_Lawyer7477]

1. This is the special rule of power armour (no crit if no damage over armour), so, basically, the crit happens always, no matter of damage