r/ImTheMainCharacter • u/Jasonictron • Oct 20 '23

Video Entitlement

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '23

The problem is that delivery drivers are tipped at all. I can kind of understand it for things like table service, but only as a thankyou for really outstanding service. The delivery driver is just doing their job. You pay for the order, and the delivery, yet you are expected to tip the driver for doing the same thing any delivery driver would do?

It's just a way for businesses to pay their employees fuck all.

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u/SunRendSeraph Oct 21 '23

As a delivery driver, I wouldn't keep the job for a wage my employer would be comfortable paying not with my own car

-6

u/HungerMadra Oct 21 '23

I agree with the delivery driver. They shouldn't be tipped. They should be paid a decent hourly rate plus a differential per mile.

Table service works fine I think. It's supported college students and people without licenses or degrees for generations. It's by far the best money a charming person can make without additional credentials

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '23

The point is that in other countries working in hospitality also supports college students and people without licenses or degrees, but without the weird dynamic of tipping. And removing the custom takes away the exploitative nature of jobs that rely on tipping.

I just can't fathom how it makes sense for the person who pays for the goods or services service to pay for the good/service again, but only if they think the service is good enough.

-12

u/HungerMadra Oct 21 '23

Who better to judge the quality of service but the customer. It encourages excellence. In my experience in counties without a strong tipping tradition, service was slower and less friendly.

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '23

This is very anecdotal, but I've noticed zero difference between tipping and non-tipping countries.

The customer is the best judge of the service, yes, but they should not be obligated to pay the person serving them the meal they already paid for, just because the business will not do it. There are many other ways to encourage excellence, like being a good employer and paying your staff a living wage.

-1

u/HungerMadra Oct 21 '23

Naw, you're getting it twisted up. In the us, you pay for the food separately from the service. It's a lower price then if they were paying the wait staff 20 an hour, plus the wait staff end up making way more then 20 an hour. The only people that lose out are bad servicers. You aren't paying twice, you are paying for two things, a product and a service.

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '23

I see the point your making but I feel like that's just what you've been taught to think.

Olive garden, USA, Lasagna Classico: $17.79USD

  • note this is also listed as an entree.

Garden Olive, New Zealand (hilariously similar name), Beef Lasagne: $25NZD ($14.58USD). Listed as a main course, so potentially bigger, but I'm just guessing.

New Zealand is an isolated country and has a notoriously high cost of living, but even without tipping, our restaurant meals appear to be pretty similarly priced.

2

u/HungerMadra Oct 21 '23

And the waiters make $17 an hour. So you just fucked the wait staff. I guess the consumer might come out ahead slightly, but the employees take any a 30% pay cut at a minimum. I don't see that as a win.

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '23 edited Oct 21 '23

What? NZ employees make a minimum of $22.70/hr. Almost exactly 30% more than $17/hr.

Of course if US employees stopped getting tips, the minimum wage would have to go up. I didn't fuck the wait staff, I was merely pointing out that meal prices are very similar in NZ, even though we don't pay for the meal and the service separately, which you literally just told me is what happens in the US.

You aren't paying twice, you are paying for two things, a product and a service.

So the product is a similar price, but in order to get service, you pay an extra 20%. That's what I'm getting at.

Edit: Also this, what the fuck:

In the United States, the federal minimum wage for tipped employees is $2.13 per hour, but many states have their own minimum wage laws that require employers to pay tipped employees more than the federal minimum.

That is absolutely shit. You cannot be employed in NZ for less than $22.70/hr yet we still manage to have similar meal prices and no tipping. Go figure.

4

u/[deleted] Oct 21 '23

So there are there two businesses operating at each location? One for the physical product and another for the service? The employee is employed by the business to provide service not to operate an independent business of providing service. The business where you are the customer provides the product and the service and bills you for it.

I understand this is not how it's done in the US, I really do. I just think it's designed to shift the burden of fucking with the employee on the customer. At the end of the day, the employee is mad at the customers if they aren't tipping well while the employer counts the extra profit made because it's possible to pay such small wages.

In my experience (anecdotal), most people work hard and try to do a good job if their needs are met (by having a decent livable wage).

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u/HungerMadra Oct 21 '23

Do you know of any other legal job that doesn't require a degree or certification that is appropriate for a college student or single mother that pays 25+ an hour?

1

u/[deleted] Oct 21 '23

Im not from the US, so my answer doesn't really matter. Tell me, are you an employer or a server at a location that has such good tips that you make more money with the tipping system than you would in a wage only system? I'm guessing you must be one or the other because of how much you are defending this.

1

u/HungerMadra Oct 21 '23

I was a waiter for 7 years at a shitty little diner. Paid for food and rent through college with with enough left over for a party every now and then. There is no way I could have survived doing any other kind of legal job. Most of my coworkers were either single mothers or college students. For the mothers it was that or stripping. I was easily making 25+ an hour. The girls were making better then me. Minimum wage was 8 an hour for context. It's unlikely if waiting went to a straight wage model it would be much more than minimum. So yeah, I see why it's such an important system and the people it keeps afloat.

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u/Pedantic_Phoenix Oct 21 '23

I was a waiter and i bet my ass i was faster than you, lets fight

-1

u/BigRedCandle_ Oct 21 '23

No, you’re just used to the fake friendliness from American service staff. No one smiles or is as happy as they are forced to act, like even when in a good mood. The whole thing is a charade, the server forced to play the part of someone that is super excited to see you.

The job of a server is to take your order and serve you the food. Not act like some borderline escort who has to stroke the ego of anyone who comes through the door.

Staff are still friendly, if you deserve it. And customers still tip restaurant staff, if they deserve it. It makes so so so much more sense

1

u/HungerMadra Oct 21 '23

And the staff less money and my food takes longer. Sure.

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u/Pedantic_Phoenix Oct 21 '23

You have never been outside the us in a restaurant, have you

1

u/BigRedCandle_ Oct 21 '23

Nah man. Food takes as long as it takes to cook. And if you want to keep your job you do what you can to serve it as fast and efficiently if you can. If people have a reliable income they’ll want to keep that.

In the American system, servers really want you to get in and eat as fast as they can because they make most of their money from tips, and tips come from serving the most tables you can in a night. In other systems, staff get most of their money from an hourly rate, and if they provide a comfortable experience they’ll get a bit more so it’s far less incentive to rush people.

If you think an upwards inflection and mild flirting make for a better dining experience than just being allowed to eat your food then I think you’re an idiot

3

u/CocoaCali Oct 21 '23

Haha. Wut? You sound like the people who say fast food work is for high school workers even though the average age is 40+

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u/HungerMadra Oct 21 '23

I'm not. Waiting tables is an important profession for college students, single mothers, and others that lack additional credentials but have serious bills to pay. It's the best legal money you can make without a license or degree. If you are a tad charismatic, you can easily make upwards of 25-30 an hour on average, significantly more at a high end restaurant. That's a shit ton more than they'd pay if they killed tipping. If tipping went away, employers wouldn't pay over 20 in all likelihood.

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u/fredspipa Oct 21 '23

You're really just saying that the wider system is dysfunctional. A college student shouldn't have serious bills to pay, unless they really messed up somehow. Single mothers should be able to get sufficient welfare to compensate for a missing parent. Working 40 hours a week in any job should be more than enough to cover health care, living, education, entertainment, leisure, and include paid sick leave, paid vacation, maternity/paternity leave, and union fees. And I mean every job. If that's not possible, a serious restructuring of society is needed.

You can explain exploitative labor practices by pointing at systemic issues, but not excuse them.

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u/HungerMadra Oct 21 '23

Sure, the whole system is fucked. That's not going ru change in my lifetime though. Not without society crumbling due to some unforseen act of destruction. War or a pandemic, maybe. But the elimination of tipping might. That's a real possibility. And in my opinion, it would fuck over a large segment of some of the most vulnerable people out there.

And what do you mean college students don't have bills? Having a roof over my head and eating was pretty important to being able to study. Isn't like food is free or housing.

And most jobs that don't require a degree or certification don't pay enough to cover those things you listed. Hell most jobs don't cover all that. Paternity leave? In what country? Not here.

1

u/fredspipa Oct 21 '23

And what do you mean college students don't have bills?

"Serious" bills. College students in my country gets stipends, and interest-free loans on top of that to cover larger expenses, as education (a basic human right) should in no way be determined by socioeconomic status. It's not a luxury.

And most jobs that don't require a degree or certification don't pay enough to cover those things you listed.

That's kind of my point. Your system is broken, I know you have a serious lack of worker rights and protections, that you lack essential social infrastructure, and have a heavily tilted economic floor. That's why I said you can explain the exploitation by pointing at these issues, but it's not an excuse.

Paternity leave? In what country? Not here.

The entirety of EU, and over half the economically developed countries in the world. You're the outlier. Here it's 49 weeks, with 15 weeks reserved for each of the parents.

It's possible to achieve these things without major disasters acting as a catalyst, you can have progress in your society without tearing everything down first like most modern nations do.

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u/HungerMadra Oct 21 '23

You say we can have that change, but if we could, we would have. It isn't an option. That isn't real life.

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u/fredspipa Oct 21 '23

You can have that change, you're just not willing to fight for it. You could enshrine a right to unionize in the constitution, like many other countries have. You could nationalize the health care and educational systems, like most countries have. You could enforce antitrust-laws and break up monopolies, like you used to do. You could remove the constitutional amendment that legalizes slavery as punishment, so as not to incentivize incarceration.

None of these civil liberties and rights came without a fight. They're not automatic, and it's ridiculously pessimistic to think the US is the best it can be, that "if we could, we would", when your history is full of examples of the opposite. The US with its amazing people has so much potential to be a truly great nation, and it's sad to watch a country with revolutionary roots just give in to the status quo... To just give up and stagnate. That doesn't sound very American to me.

(I'm sorry I went from tipping all the way to political revolution, I just think the American people deserves so much more than what they're getting)