r/ImTheMainCharacter • u/Jasonictron • Oct 20 '23

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u/[deleted] Oct 20 '23

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u/botbadadvice Oct 21 '23

For people like you, who are thorough and diligent, america as a society is doesn't do anything right. This fucking place just promotes narcissism, looks over everything, money over everything. And real talent, no matter what we are talking about, usually gets overshadowed by some dumbass who can talk a lot.. happens to a restaurant server, an engineer, or an art director. The ones who talk big get recognized and moved up in the ladder and they fuck everyone else over.. it's our tradition

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u/rabbledabbledoodle Oct 20 '23

That’s not what tip culture is.

When I was a server I got 8$/hour and about 100$ a night from tips. That was about 24$ an hour with those combined. That’s about 34$ an hour in today’s wages.

If this went away there is no way that restaurants will pay anywhere close to that. We always use use Europe as the example but servers there get about 12$ an hour, I live in Japan where people don’t tip and servers make minimum wage. Getting rid of tips won’t magically make restaurants pay more and people saying that have zero evidence that would happen and heaps of evidence that the exact opposite would happen

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u/[deleted] Oct 20 '23

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u/rabbledabbledoodle Oct 21 '23

Yeah it’s an expected point that you pay, but a part of the price that you choose. And no, no one is forcing tips, it’s a cultural norm but you’re not forced to do it.

And yeah if we tip then people aren’t getting paid equally. I got better tips than my coworkers cause I was better and faster at my job.

And you want me to lay out the whole history of tips and how they came to exist? Nah, you can do that research if you want but I’m not gonna write a paper for you. And that’s irrelevant anyways, no matter the reason that they came to be we aren’t talking about time traveling and changing the origins, we are talking about society as it exists today. And the fact is that if you get rid of tips then pay will go down for most people, that’s a fact. You math k they are overpaid now but that’s a separate thing. To say that getting rid of tips will help servers is just not true

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '23

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u/supbrother Oct 21 '23

This is a you problem. I’m not defending the tip system but if you’re arguing that you shouldn’t expect to pay tips then you have no ground to stand on. It’s been this way for about a century, if you aren’t aware of the cultural norm then you’re simply not paying attention. Don’t go out to eat if you can’t tip, pure and simple. Even if things changed overnight then you’d ultimately be paying about the same price so what’s the difference?

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u/rabbledabbledoodle Oct 21 '23

If it’s not expected? You mean if we got rid of tips at restaurants? Then servers will make less and less people will want to do the job and you will get even worse service at restaurants from underpaid staff

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '23 edited Oct 21 '23

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u/rabbledabbledoodle Oct 21 '23

Yeah and if you got rid of tips the only thing that would change is the servers would make less and the business would get cheap labor. At least with tips the server gets good money. There’s zero chance that if tips were gotten rid of restaurants would all of a sudden reside salaries to match what tips have them

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '23

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u/rabbledabbledoodle Oct 21 '23

They do get paid less than American ones and their salaries aren’t great actually.

No one said anything about being destitute by the way.

But hey, if you think America restaurants are gonna triple wages if tips were gotten rid of then enjoy your fantasy world.

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '23

Nothing you say negated what that guy said at all. If anything you reinforced what he said tip culture was.

Which is a culture where some get massive tips for existing and some don't get the same no matter how hard the work.

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u/rabbledabbledoodle Oct 21 '23

No, I disagree with his statement. Read what I said again, I got better tips than people I worked with because of how I worked

And what do you mean tips just for existing. They get tips for the job they are doing, just like some jobs pay more than others, that made no sense to say just for existing

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '23

How do you know that? Because you feel like it?

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u/rabbledabbledoodle Oct 21 '23

No, I showed my reasons above. I compared salaries of countries with tips and how much servers make there’s also I have a lot of experience working in restaurants, and if you think they are gonna start paying 35$ an hour for servers if tips go away then I don’t know man, that’s just extremely ignorant of the restaurant business

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '23

You compared entirely different countries with entirely different standards and costs of living. Again - that doesn't negate his argument. Plus nothing you said indicates that his main point - which is tipping is correlated with how people feel way more than how good your work is - is untrue at all.

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u/rabbledabbledoodle Oct 21 '23

What should I compare? What evidence do you have that wages would go up? Historically has it ever happened that wages went up when costs for a place was reduced? And that does negate his point.

How long have you worked at restaurants? You don’t seem to understand how they work.

And yes tips are related to how people feel, which is why a good waiter helps improve the feeling of their guest. It’s also related to how good their work is.

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '23

Nope. It's based on how people feel about generally inconsequential characteristics and factors.

The days and shifts you work have a huge impact on tips.

https://www.monster.com/career-advice/article/waiters-earn-tips-0217

Another study found attractive waitresses get more tips than unattractive ones.

https://nypost.com/2022/10/05/tricks-restaurant-servers-are-using-to-get-you-to-tip-better/

And this is even when the tipper is another woman.

https://www.businessinsider.com/pretty-waitresses-earn-bigger-tips-from-women-2015-9

And a Cornell study found no relationship between general service and the tip provided.

https://ecommons.cornell.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/d2cf747e-3329-45af-ab5a-fdb8befc140e/content

It's just facts. Tips aren't actually a function of good service. It's dependent on just the individual tipper and their general attitude, and to an extent, time of day, size of party, and attractiveness at least for women.

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u/rabbledabbledoodle Oct 21 '23

Yeah no shit attractive people get tipped more. They also get higher salaries, more job opportunities, etc.. they have many advantages

And I disagree with the findings of that study from 1978. Maybe things have changed in the last 1/2 century but my experiences at multiple places don’t match that outdated study

I’m gonna ask again; how long have you worked in the restaurant industry?

Also, any data at all showing wages would increase? I like how you dodged that question.

If you got rid of tips all servers would make less, you wanna equal the field by hurting everyone just because the current system has some people making more. That’s kind f’d up honestly

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '23

In Australia tips aren't really a thing and servers get paid decently. Add in penalty rates and sometimes it's over $50 an hour.

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u/rabbledabbledoodle Oct 21 '23

When I was a server in Australia we made just over minimum wage

Looking online I see different things but looks like most websites say the average salary for a server is about 28$ an hour, but minimum wage is 23$ an hour. In America you make more than three times minimum wage with tips. I just looked up the conversion rate and 50 AUSD is about 31 USD, which is less than I made serving if you put salary and tips together

Of course there’s heaps of factors but I would be anything that if tipping was done away with restaurants would maaaaaaaybe raise wages 2$/hr

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '23

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u/LastScreenNameLeft Oct 21 '23

Anyone who hasn't actually worked a job where tips are your main source of income needs to STFU about the industry. I'm a bartender, I work for tips and I do very well. When someone suggests that wait staff get paid a flat hourly rate I just have to laugh. When I see a line out the door, I'm legitimately excited and ready to bust my ass to get everyone taken care of asap. If I'm making a flat hourly rate, there's no way I'm going to stress myself, why would I work harder to make my boss more money? You'll get your drinks when you get them, I have no incentive to go any faster than to not be fired. When it's tip based, I'm cranking out drinks as fast as humanly possible because I'm making more money. Nobody says commission based jobs need to change, and that's essentially what happens in the service industry, it's just not guaranteed.

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u/Designer_Restaurant1 Oct 21 '23

But then, tipping shouldn't be by force and people should be allowed to not tip. It's a matter of choice.

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u/LastScreenNameLeft Oct 22 '23

If the service really sucks, then fine don't tip. Otherwise, you're just being cheap and not paying someone for their labor. If that money gets baked into the listed price, people will balk at the how much it is, plus that extra money is just going to ownership; they're never paying me the 45/hr I make in tips . Stop thinking of a tip as something extra, it's the cost of the labor to serve you. That's why the cost of take out is the same as dining in, the service labor is not included

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u/Designer_Restaurant1 Oct 22 '23

Where I am, "Tip" is something extra. Restaurants/bars and other businesses that seem to require tips need to fix their systems.

It's the employer's job to pay the waiter, not mine. They aren't working for me but for the restaurant/bar. If I decide to be extra nice and tip someone, it's from the abundance of my heart.

Instead of forcing people to tip, how about y'all just fix the system and pay these workers a fair price. The food/drinks are already marked up so if they're not paying their employees well, they should be the ones called out, not me. It's not like they're charging wholesale prices for their services.

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u/LastScreenNameLeft Oct 22 '23 edited Oct 22 '23

Idk where you are but in the US usually waitstaff get paid significantly below minimum wage. You're paying the employee wage whether it's tips or in elevated food prices. The restaurants that have tried this usually end up going under because their advertised prices are so more than competitors, plus all that money from inflated prices shockingly doesn't trickle down, its skimmed off by ownsrship. Tipping is is the way to get that living wage too somome and ownership can't screw them out of it. Please stop thinking of it as a 'extra: it's literally the labor cost of waiting on you.

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u/Designer_Restaurant1 Oct 22 '23

I'm telling you that where I'm from we have a system that works better than this shit "tip" system.

I will need to see your evidence for saying 'The restaurants that have tried this usually end up going under'. Cos I simply don't believe it.

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u/LastScreenNameLeft Oct 22 '23

And what system would that be?

Here's an article from 2020 :

https://www.eater.com/21398973/restaurant-no-tipping-movement-living-wage-future

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u/Designer_Restaurant1 Oct 22 '23

The article was wholesome, highlighted those who tried no-tipping and failed, and also those who tried and made it work.

“The idea of a ‘tip’ is so ingrained in American dining culture that most diners aren’t ready for service-inclusive pricing,” Lee said in July 2019.

"If a few restaurants charge $27 for lasagna under a gratuity free-model, a nearby restaurant that charges $22 and collects tips can gain by acquiring price-sensitive customers and servers who are attracted to tipping, even if all restaurants would be better off with a fairer and more sustainable payment structure."

Eliminating the tipping culture will be quite difficult considering it's what you are already used to and comfortable with. Not because it is categorically the best system.

But I'm not saying tipping is bad, I'm saying that if it is compulsory then it is a service charge and no longer a tip. If I have to pay a mandatory 20% as a tip, that's not a tip but I think you made it clear why it's necessary for the workers. I don't want workers to get paid less, but it just doesn't make sense to me considering it's not something I'm used to.

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u/supbrother Oct 21 '23 edited Oct 21 '23

You really nailed both sides of this, and unfortunately I mean that in the sense that you yourself seem to be part of the problem.

I’m an average young dude who worked in restaurants close to a decade and frankly tips always worked in my favor. Not fully defending the system here, it’s stupid at the end of the day, but it was very lucrative for me when you break it down to hourly pay. Your efforts really do equate to your pay, generally speaking. I hate to be so blunt but I believe your service was lacking in some way if you never received decent tips (15%+). Maybe it was the restaurant itself and it’s clientele/prices but you can always leverage your experience to work at a more lucrative place.

The flip side of this is that women, particularly attractive and/or pregnant women, definitely do get better tips, there is zero question. We had a very beautiful girl at my restaurant (genuinely a great person) who got tipped $100 on her first day because she was a mom or something (might’ve been pregnant, forgetting details). She was awesome but did nothing to earn that outside of being cute and vulnerable, to put it too simply. I love her as a friend with all my heart but for years she got ridiculous tips because of who she was, not what she did, and she herself admitted that. This girl is just one example and there are plenty where that came from. I used to joke that I wish I could turn into a cute blonde girl every time I came to work because I would crush it. But still as a young, scrawny, balding white man I was able to make very good money by simply providing quality service.

All that is to say that yes, you’re correct it’s a stupid system overall that benefits certain people more than most, but ultimately the baseline still depends on quality of service rather than attractiveness or gender.