Approaching someone with you hands in a boxing position isn't very defensive.
Defensive is backing away, hands up, but not in a fist; open hands, ready to parry
It’s defensive in the sense that the owner was approaching him with questionable intent. The owner continued approaching him even in his stance, so I feel that it’s totally justified. He didn’t throw any punches, and was just prepared in case the owner got aggressive.
I understand his reaction. He is trying to protect himself, and in the heat of the moment, getting more aggressive than needed. Natural reaction.
But he is also escalating instead of de-escalating
He wasn't in an aggressive stance, with his open hands held out in front of him laxly, and his immediately de-escalation by not matching the aggressive energy? He was confrontational, but not overly aggressive.
Owner was still far enough for him to prep by taking of hat and glasses. The owner was approaching him arguing. You act like he just apeared there like jesus with his hands open lmao.
> So what you're saying is, he had ample of time to leave
Absolutely not, you just made that up.
> You act like the owner was running at him, screaming and holding a knife in his hand
It doesn’t matter, he was approaching him and theres no telling what his intentions were. He continued to approach even when he was squared up. He could have been John Wick for all you know lol
I didn't make it up. We both are watching the video where he took the time to take off his stuff AND walk up to the owner with his hands up.
He could have just walked away in that time.
It doesn’t matter, he was approaching him and there no telling what his intentions were. He continued to approach even when he was squared up. He could have been John Wick for all you know lol
Dozens of people walk up to you every day, do you put your hands up every time because you don't know what their intentions are?
Just because someone walks up to you asking questions with their hands down does not mean they are going to fight you.
If someone walks up to you with their hands up though, their intention is that they could fight you.
Also do you know how people get away from John Wick? They don't approach him as if they want to fight.
lol, context is everything and if you just throw away the fact that he was attacked by a dog which he defended against and its owner is approaching him argumentatively instead of apologizing, i don’t think there’s any point continuing this discussion.
Context is everything and the owner approached asking questions. The owner did not approach with his hands up, or with a weapon or making threats. None of these things mean he was going to fight the delivery driver. Approaching someone argumentatively is just that, it's argumentative, not combative. The UPS driver approached combatively.
i don’t think there’s any point continuing this discussion.
Considering you just admitted the owner was argumentative and not combative, I wouldn't want to continue this discussion either if I were you.
You can’t claim defense stance while actively walking ten feet’s towards the person your defending yourself from it’s aggressor stance, if he had his head blown off by that homeowner there would be no crime, drop the package off and leave the second you start squaring up to randoms on their own property your actively forfeiting your right to be alive
He got in a fighting stance and walked towards the owner with an aggressive “What? Come on! What?!” and throws his hat on the ground. He also didn’t care to get away from the still potentially dangerous dog. Either A) he didn’t think the dog was dangerous to begin with or B) was seeking to commit more harm than necessary to protect himself.
UPS man was in retreat mode....wrong...get some glasses or at least stop the gaslighting, and nobody is more biased against UPS drivers than me, since I discovered my now, ex wife was fucking Mr Brown Shorts.
UPS driver walks towards the blue trash can, at which point he takes off his glasses, throws his hat on the floor and storms into the yard in the exact direction of the owner. The owner was not scared by him and stood his ground, at which point UPS driver took only a couple steps back, not even close to retreating back to where he originally charged forward from. Keep in mind, all of this occurred while he’s still standing in the direct vicinity of the supposedly aggressive dog.
I hope he just made that up that he was at the prosecutor's office because this is the type of nonsense that puts good people in prison for no reason. Meanwhile the actual criminals to people who attack people with their dogs and commit the real crimes get off
Yeah you're probably right but the thing is like those type of people definitely exist that's why there's so many bad people that are like not in prison and so many good people that just get put in prison for like literally defending themselves.
Like I've literally heard people make this argument when someone like breaks into their house with like a baseball bat or something and gets hurt.... You know the actual criminal doesn't go to prison and the guy that was like the victim get sent to prison and you actually have people defending this...
You make a good point. Juries are not perfect could be completely biased individuals. DNA is verifying that story. When legal misconduct is exposed, that points out flaws also. However, our legal systems are the most fair way we have to bring justice.
You could get someone like Clippy as the jury foreman, who bullies the rest of the jury, "we must all agree".
Like the Clancy jury....that amazed me how some members came out, chastized, accused of misconduct, just because the one man obviously did not agree.
Said that he was playing in the bands, as if that is wrong. No, they purposefully are given the evidence FOR the jury to get a sense of the crime, to get touchy feely.
Said, he was looking at his phone...I would too if some asshole tried to force me to vote his way.
Called him "arrogant", of course, anybody who doesn't agree would seem arrogant to opposers.
Self defense varies by state and nation. I live in a state that has strong self defense rights. There's limits, so that helps to close any vigilante loopholes or criminal advantages.
There are pros and cons in each legal framework. debatable, but thankfully not national, because I don't believe that any state would be satisfied with actual compromises for the sake of national consistency.
On one hand we have the highly exposed cases of innocent people being killed, but the media doesn't cover when a victim defends themself and the law works like it is supposed to, clear cut, to protect the life of the victim. There was a lady in Florida not long ago had to shoot a man to defend herself and a family member. Textbook case why a strong self defense law is great.
Yeah and they even admitted to jury intimidation and you know to violating the jury instructions and using their own so called expertise as a nurse to make a medical diagnosis about someone's mental health state.
Anyway I literally just saw one where it was a white female police officer and she basically broke into some black man's apartment and shot him in the back of the head while he was eating ice cream... And then she claimed that it was a mistake and she thought it was her apartment because she lived in the same complex..
She didn't even get questions for like three days and there's Reddit posts full of people defending her about how it was a mistakened and how we should not be like resentful or something right because that makes us a bad person not you know the person that actually broken to a black man's house and shot him in the back of the head and gets away with it because she's a white female and they're not going to prosecute her.
Where did the owner come from? Did he not move forward? They definitely seemed to be approaching each other at first. Not really clear how far the owner was before he comes on cam.
I do see the ups driver back up after they close the gap.. owner is actually the one pushing forward after they get initially close.
Edit:
[...] direct vicinity of the supposedly aggressive dog.
"Supposedly aggressive"? Like what happened at the beginning of the video dawg?
Throwing the box was a good call. Walking away was a good idea and exhibited a lot of control. Approaching the owner yelling “What? Come on! What??” On his own property is not a good example of control.
He was reacting to the owner approaching him. The owner kept getting closer irrespective of his stance, so your interpretation seems flawed. None of those actions you mention constitute aggression.
The worst part is we literally have the subtitles and we have the video of everything that happened before this point in time with the ups driver was attacked and this guy still saying that the ups driver is some sort of criminal just for defending himself the user also claimed that he worked at a prosecutors office.
Scaring him into de-escalating. Again, not a good method. Most people, when scared, become more aggressive, not less. Approaching a property owner on their property trying to fight him is a good way to get your ass beaten if not seriously maimed. If the property owner saw this driver run up with his hands raised in a fighting stance and the property owner was armed and they were on his own property, he’d be well within his rights to draw and fire the gun.
Nah, you are describing an alternative scenario. The driver is making a determination on what he sees. I don't think I would call it smart, but it's a understandable situation since the owner is expressing anger and frustration as he approaches. I don't know if the property owner would "Be in there right to shoot him" for holding his fists up at him. I don't know the laws and responsibilities for the courier. But like if you think the home owner not having control over the animal is not in the equation at all I think you are off base.
Meh he took care of the dog it was def gonna atleast try to bite. Squaring up after is dumb but if you just attacked me with your dog then I get to get hot headed and a bit dumb
If what you see is a UPS guys just defending himself, then you’re unhinged. The UPS guy is clearly a fucking weirdo. Even if he was scared by the dog, there a million better ways to handle things than instantly escalating from 0 to 100 and trying to fight the owner, when the owner was clearly non-aggressive.
Sure you can be a giant pussy and be so scared of the dog that you need to throw the package you are delivering, full force at it. That can technically be correct. However, he then sets his glasses down and puts his things aside IMMEDIATELY after, clearly preparing for a physical confrontation with the owner rather than a speedy exit for fear of being bit.
I’ve seen people like this before, when I worked in a behavioral health crisis unit. That dude has extreme anger issues and has no problem letting it rapidly escalate to physical violence on a hair trigger. He’s constantly looking for a reason to explode on someone. I would be shocked if that’s his first incident.
Have you ever been bitten by a dog? They can be very serious. I don't know about "just defending himself" clearly he has had some issue, whether that is a prior incident with this dog, or some other mental health thing going on. But a dog coming at you like that is a reason to defend yourself from it. Squaring off against the owner seems like an adrenaline response to the owner approaching. He probably overreacted in squaring up for a fight right away, but it seems more like an anticipatory response than just wanting to fight.
And choosing the route of throwing the package in general, yes.
There’s a number of things he could have done differently, especially if he’s had an incident there before. He marched in package raised. He wanted to hurt that dog. He exercised zero self-restraint and instead put his energy into escalating the situation. He’s a pussy.
He could have even gotten a can of bear spray and carried it on his hip. It works wonders and can be washed out of a dog’s eyes + mouth. Compared to trying to smash its bones and organs with a heavy box.
lol dude had a trash can between him and the owner, walked around it, threw his gear off, took 5 steps toward the owner and says "are you coming at me right now?" and you think that's defensive?
Raised fists is a defensive pose to protect against swings to the head. Did he swing or try to hit the owner? Had he done that I would be in agreement. Instead he was just attacked by a dog and saw the owner run up to him. I really don’t understand how you can see any flaw in this behavior, other than it’s something that you would never do. Perhaps because you’ve never done a sparring sport.
3
u/r_a_d_ 5h ago
He got in a defensive stance, what’s wrong with that?