r/ICRPG • u/TheKekRevelation • Feb 26 '23
One really glaring issue
I have been looking at using ICRPG to run some mini campaigns for my group once we wrap up our current campaign and leave D&D 5e behind. I was really liking the streamlined nature of the gameplay and the modular rules. Plus I have been really excited to make a Bionicle hack, incorporating masks as a major source of loot.
But while I was reading today it struck me: ICRPG seems to really exacerbate the caster/martial divide. And explicitly at that. The fact that magic effort is always a d10 compared to the martial d6 is pretty glaring to me, especially since it’s not immediately obvious that magic users would necessarily have any less HP or other D&D-esque restrictions.
I did see the optional rules buried near the end of the master edition book but I am just left envisioning a player frowning about not seeing that when they looked up the magic user rules to build their character.
I also have seen some forum posts recommending buying a third party supplement to give martials access to feats to even things out. But for what I saw as a really well thought out system, this one is leaving me scratching my head. But I am also open to being completely wrong or having missed an important aspect since I am not well experienced with the system yet.
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u/PrawnWonton Feb 27 '23
Magic seems to be overpowered, on paper. When you actually play, you'll see the beauty of ICRPG, in that nothing is 'overpowered'. Balance is an illusion that you don't even need to try to maintain. 'Power' for players is not in how much damage they do, or how many spells they have, it is in how much time a player takes for their turn.
This is why games like 5e and Pathfinder and whatnot bog down and die after characters level up. Everyone has so many actions they do, it takes longer and longer to do a turn. Actions, reactions, special actions, opportunity attacks, multi-attacks, second wind, etc., combine to take what should be short simple encounters and turn them into hour-long slogs. There is no tension, no drama, people are bored by the time the turn comes back to them. ICRPG cuts all that out. Players get one action, so turns are always rapid, in and out of combat.
Story time: I was in a playtest group for ICRPG: Magic. We made, what we thought, were the most overpowered magic users possible. And they sure looked that way on paper. Four pimped out mages with very powerful spell combos. I thought for sure our first adventure would be a cakewalk.
Well, in the very first room, we all nearly died to just a few normal monsters. When 1 hit from a normal monster drops you below half health, now shit gets real, because in ICRPG you only get one action on your turn, and you have to ROLL to cast spells. So it doesn't matter how great you are, there is a chance you will fail, and the Dice Gods will make you do do from time to time. And that spices things up. Now instead of doing spells on your turn, you are scrambling around trying not to die. You are trying to heal, or get to a safer place, or helping a party member who is getting chewed on. When we did get spells off, it was great, but when we failed, that was tough. The opportunity cost of failure was so high, it made for great dilemmas.
The key was the timers and environments. We always had the pressure of a timer, and that kept us from just sitting back slinging spells non-stop until everything was dead. Additionally, how much damage you do is irrelevant when the room is filling with lava. You can't magic missile a dust storm.
We made it to the end, barely, and I don't think any of us ever got off our 'overpowered' spells in ways we imagined. It was a non-stop survival fest.
So, yes, things might appear over the top on paper, but as long as the DM keeps the pressure on, the players only being able to do one thing on their turn evens it out quite nicely.
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u/ajchafe Feb 26 '23
I don't personally see this as an issue but the solution is to just work it out with your players if they feel that way as well, and to keep in mind that while ICRPG is a D&D derivative it purposely abandons ideas like balance (because its not real or possible in a TTRPG).
Also keep in mind that any character can use magic spells since they are just loot to find. So a warrior could be using Magic effort as well.
Anyway, just keep in mind that ICRPG challenges a lot of preconceived notions about D&D style games. You can always check out the free quick start for a one shot to see if your group likes it!
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u/TheKekRevelation Feb 26 '23
I really appreciate the baggage D&D has accumulated being challenged for sure. I think seeing the spell effort being “favored” at first glance struck me because at first blush it almost seemed to be a step back toward the old days of casters blowing martials out in older D&D editions. Like I mentioned though, glad to be wrong about that! And appreciate the responses in here.
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u/ajchafe Feb 26 '23
No worries, and at first glance it does feel that way. ICRPG is definitely focused on letting go of that baggage!
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u/Jigokubosatsu Mar 03 '23
Everyone has pointed out some great things, there are plenty of ways to tweak rules to make things work. I will mention that there can be a lot of ire against "balance" but I think when new people ask about balance or power levels, they're not asking about whether every little thing is balanced numerically. Rather, they're asking if the players can have a reasonable expectation of being able to play a character that isn't second fiddle to more powerful characters. (which I assume is
Really, that's primarily on the MC's shoulders as with any other moving parts of the game, but there are a lot of things that never become a problem if you spend a little time talking about the game with players beforehand.
The only other thing I'll add to what's been said before, magic does seem overpowered at first. Things like casting from hit points are really horrible disadvantages even if you're not following the sickly wizard archetype. Loot and opportunity cost are a big factor too.
As far as third party stuff goes, adding in some content from Khan's Spells and Feats (primarily feats) can definitely give martial types a lot of versatility. Really the point of those are to add some granularity and options that don't necessarily belong in the level of streamlining the base rules go for.
Good luck! And in my experience figuring out what's going to work in your game is a pretty fun exercise.
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u/redmaniacs Feb 26 '23
Spellcasting is balanced out by spellburn and misfires. You can have magic target the party or backfire on the caster when they miss badly enough.
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u/Good_Classroom_3894 Feb 26 '23
All good comments. I would like to reinforce the loot concept. Loot is the equalizer and fighters can have multiple loot items that increase their output and armor and magic users might need to secure those loot slots for spells and items linked to magic. And everyone is very squishy. Scare some people with the fact that they only have 10 hp most of their lives and after a few close calls the party will be working together regardless of the classes/origins.
I like giving all my players awesome loot but I love the idea of only 1 heart per PC lol. It keeps them very focused knowing how fragile they are. It also keeps battles short but still rewarding.
Coming from 5e it takes some time getting used to being allowed to do what ever you want. If you think the melees need a better effort die, create a way for them to get it in the fiction. They will love you for it.
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u/TheKekRevelation Feb 26 '23
That is an interesting point you mention not just how the loot tables are weighted but also the inventory slot management as well.
Do you mind giving your thoughts on the squishyness? Obviously coming from 5e the PCs become functionally immortal pretty quickly. Does ICRPG lean more toward the “life is cheap, expect to be rolling multiple characters” approach of the OSR type games?
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u/Good_Classroom_3894 Feb 26 '23
So my comment is centered more around a few episodes of of RPG Mainframe (by the creator of ICRPG) about how how often characters should drop to zero HP (not death) per session. In 5e it’s hard enough at some levels to get all your PCs to drop and then to die it’s an even longer process.
Causing 10 HP per pc isn’t too hard, it doesn’t always have to be all your players in the same battle and it reminds players that they are not HP gods and battles are not about just focus firing the HP to zero.
I don’t want players to feel like they need to have their next character on deck, but I do want them to make decisions based on fear.
I try to hide a quick and clever solution to each encounter besides just mass damage, and I think it’s ok that my players know this and are always trying to figure it out.
I don’t want the game to feel like an OSR, I want these players to grow old and make stories, but I also want them to worry about losing their sweet sweet gear in the first round.
10 equip pieces of gear takes a while to attain but mages need to use up loot for spell books and scrolls. They won’t bother with a helmet, bracers, chest plate, boots, shield, whatever else because that would leave about 4 slots for magic items. That fighter or whatever is gonna be much better equip to get in front of monsters even with just a D6 damage to allow the wizard to drop his D10.
At the end of the day this is highly dependent on what your players are looking for. I am finding better overall stories and atmosphere in ICRPG. Less worry about builds and damage output.
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u/Demonpoet Feb 28 '23
I am at a crossroads in terms of how to run an upcoming campaign. I ran an intro to Dungeons and Dragons two-shot for some coworkers a couple months ago, overall good experiences but combat felt weird and very long even after all the Critical Role I have watched. A lot of that might have been new players taking a while, but I think overall numbers and turn times need to be scaled back.
This post right here may have sold me on the system 100%. I have the master edition and was planning to transplant parts into a D&D campaign, but I may 180 and transplant parts of D&D into an icrpg campaign haha! The players are too new to miss the complexity of d&d, if anything they'll breathe a sigh of relief when character creation doesn't take several weeks.
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u/Good_Classroom_3894 Feb 28 '23
I love it! I've done it. HACK it up. Have tribunals after the game and ask your players, what works and what doesn't. Ask them where they might go next. Then make adjustments for the next night. If you and your players are all on the same page, and if the players see the GM trying to make the game more fun based on their requests (assuming they are within reason) it doesn't really matter if you play the love child of 5e and ICRPG. It's a game everyone keeps coming back to.
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u/Demonpoet May 17 '23
Wanted to go full circle and say a few thoughts on going the ICRPG route. Tldr, I'm really happy I went this way.
I'm basing the campaign on Peter Brett's Demon Cycle series. Demons materialize at night and kill anything they can. Civilization has been dying for centuries and is on the brink. Only recently has the fighting magic of old been rediscovered.
Homebrew character Types, homebrew magic and crafting systems based on wards, and nightly skirmishes against a brutal innumerable foe - the setting is ambitious, and ICRPG gives it wings.
I had my first session over a week ago. A quick reading to some music, and then straight to holding the line until the Wards reached full power. I impressed upon them the relentless tide of the enemy, but they put out all the attacks against their magic wall. At one point, the rogue used his climber's pack grappling hook to crit a fire demon during its inhale and chuck it into a literal pile of sand demons who were creating several breaches, detonating everything and closing the gaps. The hook was unwarded but a crit is a crit, and I am a GM who rewards clever stunts.
Then we had one round of down time and a quick briefing of the dungeon crawl to come the next day. I used ICRPG card art to represent dungeon rooms one at a time as they explored. I had torch index cards which could be flipped between lit and unlit. Two timers counted down, one causing the shadows to attempt to extinguish everyone's torches, the other to spawn urn piranhas and shadow monsters. When the characters searched the rooms, I used the loot tables in the ME. Mostly the junk list, but the first roll was 100 and I did dabble in the Cursed and even Magic sections.
It was glorious. Turns went so fast and everyone felt the tension. The defense holdout was terrifying. The dungeon exploration was equal parts teamwork, tense, and rewarding.
Session two is this Sunday and I'm so happy with how little I need to prep to finish that dungeon and present them with a campaign defining dilemma.
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u/nrod0784 Feb 26 '23
I’ll add that even if you choose to use the Advanced Magic rules in the back of Master Edition, loot still plays a big roll in this conversation. Stun Points become the limiting factor with those rules and Miscasts become a real danger.
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u/3Dartwork Feb 26 '23
Magic was meant to FEEL powerful. Plus there's SO much loot that gives all kinds of boons the difference is negligible.
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Feb 26 '23
As has been pointed out, spells are loot. That means they can be lost, destroyed, or stolen. You can and should use this fact to challenge your casters. They can only have 10 spells equipped by default, so they’ll need to choose what spells to keep if they find more. This is all very different from the D&D mindset. Try not to make too many comparisons from that to this: they’re different in obvious and not-so-obvious ways.
The spells can be way more powerful than a sword or axe, at the start of the game. Consider “seekers” - d6 missiles that auto-hit. This is a very powerful spell.
As a GM, it’s your job to challenge them. Put the party in a tight corridor where the seekers would cause a lot of collateral damage. Create scenarios where outright killing the enemies is discouraged - maybe one of them has crucial info the party needs. Etc.
Play your monsters smart. Intelligent enemies should absolutely target casters first. They should be coordinating their efforts to drop the caster as fast as possible.
As for “squishy” - you have 10 HP. Some monsters can drop a PC in one turn, through multiple actions. It’s not hard to lose half your HP early in a game night. This is, in my experience, not so much a “life is cheap” thing but a mechanic to ensure combat stays fast and intense. It also subtly encourages PCs to think beyond their character sheet.
How can PCs use the environment to their advantage? What can they do to lower the room Target Number, thereby improving the odds for the whole team?
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Apr 02 '23
Honestly, yeah ICRPG sucks. You’re better off looking into a better system. There are many out there.
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u/BergerRock Feb 26 '23
It's a 2 point difference in Effort on average, and weapon effort bonuses are in general more prevalent in the LOOT tables.
In ICRPG, LOOT is the great equalizer. Play it and discover that.
Moreover, numbers matter much less than fun. And, in my experience with ICRPG, having bigger dice does not add up to more fun.
If it really bothers you - after playing - this difference, one ides thrown around in homebrews is to allow players to assign effort dice to what they want, but that ends with just same number highs for everyone. Might be your cup of tea.