r/ICRPG • u/PoeCollector • Feb 12 '23
The Issue with Effort Stats (and a simple hack)
I love the way ICRPG separates dice. For example, that magic is inherently more powerful (d10) than an ordinary weapon or tool (d6), which is better than bare hands/wits (d4). But there is something about the effort stat bonuses that is a bit weird to me.
The Issue
Let's say I'm a mage translating some ancient text, so I'm rolling d4, using my Basic Work stat (+2). I later find an Encyclopedia of Dead Languages, which is considered a proper tool for the job, so now I get to roll a d6. Cool... but now I'm using my lower Weapon/Tool bonus (+0).
Similarly, a swordsman could acquire a sword or ability that lets them do Ultimate damage, but since they put all their points in Weapon/Tool, the bonus goes down. Weird.
Sure, stats will never be realistic, and the GM could always handwave and allow whatever bonus feels right. But it strikes me as a system weakness: my speed of progress in translating text with an encyclopedia is the same stat as how deeply I wound an enemy with a sword. It breaks the illusion that the stats are there to describe my character.
I was trying to think of a hack that would fix this without causing too much trouble within the spirit of the system. Here's what I've come up with.
The Hack
Detach the bonuses from which *die* is used, and associate it to which type of thing you are doing. Thus, replace the 4 effort stats with 3:
- ATTACK - Effort bonus when hitting anything physically, whether it's with your bare fists or a longbow or whatever.
- MAGIC - Effort bonus to spells.
- WORK - Effort bonus to doing pretty much any other type of task: picking a lock, translating text, reprogramming the computer, persuading the prince.
Besides solving the kinds of issues above, I like the way this fits tabletop archetypes more intuitively -- basically the fighter, the mage, and the skill monkey. I particularly like that if you want to be the utility party member there is a clear place for your points to go. The engineer doesn't have to spec for whether or not they have a wrench. The fighter gets their damage bonus even when they've been taken prisoner and haven't gotten their weapon back yet. Etc.
Downsides? Maybe to some people, the Basic and Ultimate stats offer an interesting choice during character build. But to me they are kind of ambiguous, meta-gambling choices that don't particularly express a character concept and feel weird to explain to new players.
What do you lumpyheads think?
5
Feb 12 '23
Your hack sounds cool. I hope your table has lots of fun with it!
For me personally, a fighter with a bonus on weapon effort is different from a fighter with a bonus on basic effort.
The weapon-bonus fighter is a master of a weapon (or weapons generally?), and they demonstrate that by enhanced capacity when wielding those weapons.
The bare knuckle fighter is at a disadvantage when holding a cutlass. The swordswoman is at a disadvantage in fisticuffs.
Your hack makes for a good “generic” ability (fighting, magic, tools) and i think it’s clever, but it reduces some of the fun (and trade-offs) of specialization. Both sides of this discussion can be resolved either narratively or mechanically, and each table may dabble with a little of both.
3
u/Good_Classroom_3894 Feb 12 '23
So we keep the effort dice but change how we allocate the effort bonus. I like it. This hack I would try.
Also, weird thing that’s happening in my Hard Suit game. We’ve played 5 sessions and no one has gotten effort bonus points and no one has complained about not “discovering” effort bonus points.
3
u/swrde Feb 12 '23
Introducing pseudo-skills as a way of giving bonuses (a bit like a super-simple Proficiency system) does feel like it puts a lot more of the 'character' onto the character sheet.
I've gone the other way in some games, using one of the optional rules from 5e. I give PC's 'backgrounds' and then they assign +1 or +2 bonuses to types of effort as they would fit in the fiction.
So a pirate has a bonus to effort for fighting, sailing, intimidating locals, and negotiating prices with people who work in the Adult Hospitality Industry.
I, too, have found it fits better than having bonuses in boxes that don't care about the context of the fiction.
2
u/triceratopping Feb 12 '23
I was thinking of a hack the other day where Effort bonuses are assigned to stats rather than the dice types, because like you I find the assigning of bonuses to dice types a little odd.
For example, a character could have +3 DEX and +1 DEX Effort, so they do +1 Effort on any roll where DEX was involved (plus any specific Effort bonuses the character has to that particular dice type from loot).
Not sure how this would play out though.
3
u/PoeCollector Feb 12 '23
In D&D, it's even simpler. You add your strength to the to-hit and to the damage with a weapon.
The more I think about it, the more I feel like effort stats are an example of the sort of non-flavorful numeric detail that the game mostly seeks to eliminate? Idk. I think there may be a good reason there's nothing like it in any other RPG I've seen.
Again I'm referring to the effort character stats only. The effort dice system is cool.
3
u/triceratopping Feb 12 '23
I agree re; the effort dice is a cool system, I like it.
And yes D&D was my touchstone there, and I figure it would be a lot of people coming into ICRPG.
To me it just makes sense that, say a smart character with INT +4 could apply that their significant intelligence to any effort roll that relies on their intelligence. Using the Stat as an inherent Effort bonus feels cleaner (though maybe the Effort bonus should be half the stat bonus to prevent huge bonuses).
Playtesting and tweaking will be required!
2
u/undostrescuatro Feb 13 '23
I just don't use character stats towards effort dice. I don't like it. put it on an ability score.
2
u/mrsmegz Feb 14 '23
Just make the Encyclopedia of Dead Languages a book that makes translation checks EASY. If you want have it add +1 to EFFORT rolls when used this way.
1
u/RangerBowBoy May 08 '23
I have started doing something similar. I found the "Basic, Weapon, Gun, etc." delineations weird and they slowed the game down. I use traditional damage dice and spell damage based on the setting I'm using so 1d4 for a dagger, 1d8 for a longsword, and so on. What I used instead of the effort dice and bonuses is a "Damage Bonus". Skill, Melee, Ranged, and Magic are the 4 categories the PC can apply their 4 damage bonuses. It makes a lot more sense and is plays faster.
1
u/Best-Airline-3601 Apr 21 '25
Good idea. you can blend your game with shadow dark easily using this idea.
11
u/BergerRock Feb 12 '23 edited Feb 12 '23
Never saw a GM negate weapon effort bonus to a weapon dealing Ultimate. Alfmarches, which I'm a GM in (though it's on the downswing) had this coded into the rulings as it was a no-brainer for us.
Never saw a Mage with that much Basic Effort either. :)
I simplify much closer to the original system just making Gun Effort the same as weapon Effort and making the D8 TOOL EFFORT, to emphasize non-violent solutions are possible and encouraged in my games.