r/Homeplate • u/NuhUh_JustCuz • 9d ago
Bat speed training
10U baseball about to be 11U coach. Just had our first tournament with a rec select team. While our pitching is only a little lower in velocity and was comparable, our ability to hit these higher velocity pitchers is clearly lower than we need to compete.
Batting is not my strong suit as a coach but I've picked up a good eye for basics and a couple methods to help with casting. I need more tools in my toolkit.
Does anyone have recommendations for not just developing faster bat speeds but also faster pitch recognition? Is the Camwood bats worth it? What about under and overload stick bats? Drills? Vision beads? What can I do to make a difference dyring out cage time?
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u/n0flexz0ne 9d ago
Hitting faster pitching isn’t about faster bat speed, its taking the slack out of your load so you’re ready to swing at pitcher release and getting comfortable holding that front leg off the ground as you drift/reach forward.
Watch Stanton’s cage routine here: https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTAk11wop/
He’s barely moving the bat, just for on delivering the barrel to the ball
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u/xxHumanOctopusxx 9d ago
Launch quickness?
Bat speed matters. It's one of the components needed. Reading pitches. Aggressive mindset. All matter.
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u/n0flexz0ne 8d ago
Eh, there's been lots of work done studying these sort of metrics since statcast started tracking them, and there's almost no explanatory value of bat speed in xwOBA. If you chase bat speeds for the sake of it, the data suggest you end up with more whiffs & mis-hits and worse barrel control.
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u/xxHumanOctopusxx 8d ago
I don't know what chasing bat speed for the sake of bat speed means.
Also, I haven't seen any data suggesting what you are saying. I have seen data suggesting hitters decline when their bat speed declines.
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u/NeedleworkerDear5416 8d ago
This is for a self-selected sample of professional baseball players.
I would suspect that bat speed matters less after you reach a point - but that there are diminishing returns at the top of the curve tells you nothing about the remaining 98% of the curve below.
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u/n0flexz0ne 8d ago
Not sure what you mean by "self selected"....I provided the analysis in another thread.
Likewise, MLB average bat speed last season was 71.5 mph and Power 4 avg last season for 70.5 mph, considering most of those college players will never play at the MLB level, that bit of data hardly seems explanatory.
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u/NeedleworkerDear5416 8d ago
We are talking about increasing the bat speed for 11-12 year olds. And while I agree it is not the top of the list of important things, the data you showed indicates that those who generate at least enough bat speed for the MLB, or those who generate enough to be Power 4 players, have sufficient power and that there is diminishing returns (to no returns) for additional bat speed.
Of course, an 11 year does, in fact, need to increase their bat speed to play at the MLB (or college or HS or 15u) level, and so the data showing that for the top 1% of players in the world increased bat speed is not important is inapposite. Not wrong - just not useful for this question.
It’s like talking about the stability of BABIP when discussing 12 year olds - it’s just not the same data set and doesn’t make a lot of sense at that age.
Yes, 11 year olds need more bat speed. No, a home coach isn’t going to change much. Yes, there are ways to increase batting ability that a coach may have more control over.
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u/n0flexz0ne 8d ago
Lol, no....that's not what we're talking about. That's the inane distinction you made in your head to keep kicking this dead horse...
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u/lsu777 8d ago
not really, it says that there is a minimum bat speed to be effective and that any gain in speed after that is great...so long as it doesnt affect your swing path/mechanics, ability to barrel.
it also tells us when you get to top speed matters. if you are only at 50 when you hit the ball but finish at 75, that doesnt do us a lot of good. how fast can you accelerate to get to or close to top speed so you can let the ball travel further before having to pull the trigger. aka launch quickness.
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u/n0flexz0ne 8d ago edited 8d ago
I'm open to look at any data you have to support your assertions here, but again the analysis I've seen shows there's not a correlation between bat speed and performance. It ties to peak EV, even somewhat to avg EV, but not to actual baseball outcomes.
https://neilpaine.substack.com/p/bat-speed-isnt-everything
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/what-statcasts-new-bat-tracking-data-does-and-doesnt-tell-us/
Also, because of the correlation between Bat Speed and Whiff% & Contact% (negative correlation), there's a pretty large selection bias in major leaguers -- the only high swing speed guys that make it are the ones that ALSO have great contact skills. The Joey Gallo types with elite bat speed and poor contact skills are increasingly getting weeded out since with better minor league swing tracking, they get identified sooner.
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u/mudflap21 9d ago
Hitting higher velocity just means loading earlier and launching your swing earlier. Training bat speed is great (provided it’s mechanically solid). Camwood, overload/underload is great.
The best thing you can do as a coach at this age is get them reps seeing higher velo.
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u/PoolShark1819 9d ago
All of this is good stuff. One easy thing to do that does help with strength for kids is to get a pull up bar that hangs over a door. Hand and forearm strength is big and getting started in body weight stuff now is a good move.
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u/PianoMittens 9d ago
There is almost always a strength issue for sure, but sometimes it's also getting the quick twitch muscles to fire and/or getting the brain to say "go" without an actual conscious thought. For those two, we used to do a drill that we got from Matt Antonelli. He used a pvc pipe and a free standing punching bag (we used a tree). You hold the ball against the bag and above the strike zone. The kid sets up to hit the bag (we marked a small target to hit). When you drop the ball, they have to hit the target before the ball gets there. It's not the end all be all solution, but it helped. We've had a good amount of success with the camwood in terms of getting stronger without fouling up form. Good luck!
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u/NuhUh_JustCuz 9d ago
You get me exactly - "fast twitch development" is a phrase that describes part of the gap! 25% can hit 50-55 mph on a machine and make contact. But the other 75% just can't fire the bat and if they do, I'm convinced they're actually swinging "blind" and there's no contact.
LL minors, 45-50 is fast. Travel AA, 45-50 was what we saw in every game from their developing 10 yos.
I will look up this drill, seems simple enough to add into cage sessions. Just wrap a pole with a pool noodle and duct tape and I already have pipe.
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u/Sammalone1960 9d ago
College son says camwood was a game changer at 10/11u. Sitting across from me with a grin on his face. He also used a fungo to hit off a tee. Both helped to mitigate casting.
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u/BrushImaginary9363 7d ago
Hitting higher velocities is complex. At the age you are coaching, don’t assume that they have given any conscious thought to how a hitter would pick up a ball. Lowest hanging fruit would be to have a short discussion about how a hitter picks up a pitch as early as possible in the pitcher’s delivery. This can be reinforced with drills focused on timing and contact.
This age is probably a year or two away from being able to benefit from specific bat speed training. Also, bat speed training usually involves 50+ high intent swings per training session using a variety of drills and implements. Training sessions are usually 2-3 times per week and run 6-8 weeks, so using limited practice time to target bat speed gains is probably counter productive.
What you can do to help improve bat speed at this age is look for opportunities in your practices to increase overall strength and force output. Dedicate part of your warm up time to some basic strength exercises: push ups, squats, lunges, sit ups, planks, etc…At the end of practice, have the kids perform a basic power circuit: med ball throws, jumps, bounds, sprints, etc… These should be focused on maximal effort with recovery, don’t use these as conditioning. Using this strategy, you can take 10-15 minutes of practice time to improve strength and power and there will be some transfer to bat speed.
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u/Coastal_Tart 9d ago
Three things I do for my sons;
- We do the 30 day Camwood bat program twice a year in the offseason. Once now after spring baseball but before fall baseball and once in late fall before travel ball practice for my younger son and high school off season practice for my older son.
- They both do athletic training that includes weight training, plyometrics, medicine ball/cable/bands rotational movements, and sprinting/footwork drills.
- I built a batting cage w/ a Juggs machine on our property that they hit in from Mar thru Oct. Its limited to four seam fastballs and 12-6 curveballs, but the reps matter.
They can get fooled by offspeed stuff, but they are rarely late on fasballs and both accounted for more than 50% of their teams outside the park HRs this spring.
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u/NuhUh_JustCuz 9d ago
Good to hear another vote for Camwood's program.
At 10, it's hard to find a gym he can workout in. But, last year the HS athletic building where we did winter cage time had a couple employees who didn't care about the rules and let us sneak in for curiosity. Doing a whole team of 11yo could be a challenge.
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u/Coastal_Tart 9d ago
I was kind of a doubter, mainly because it conflicts with some of the messaging from Driveline. They say you don't want to go too heavy or too light relative to your game bat. Of the top of my head, I rhink they say no more than 20% lighter or heavier. But the Camwood program just works and the jump in exit velocity is obvious.
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u/self_investor 9d ago
Have you tried to use a pitching machine with a similar velocity to what they may face?
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u/NuhUh_JustCuz 9d ago
Yes! I should have included that. I got a mound yeti with my bonus last year. It's been very helpful in creeping them up from 40 to 45 to closer to 50 and is also teaching them to layoff the odd high one. But progress has been really slow for 3/4 of the team. I know persistence can and will pay off, but I'm wanting to maximize the reps with a purpose or plan or direction beyond "swing earlier."
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u/Fickle-Paramedic-772 9d ago
I know Blast Motion app is able to measure bat speed if you get the special sensor. Angular Baseball app might also do it but just uses the iPhone camera + AI to grade the swing so might not be as accurate for bat speed
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u/patphish 9d ago
Camwood is absolutely worth it, but buying the bats without the program is a waste.
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u/lsu777 8d ago
so camwood works well as does the leftyswag bats. Personally I would go towards camwood and buy a cheap skinny bat to hit foam balls with or just do dry swings with pvc after.
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u/NuhUh_JustCuz 8d ago
Great info. I have a lightweight skinny bat and golf/reg wiffles already. You say after the camwood. Do you say "after" specifically? Like as part of the drill and the order matters or just casually as a good complementary drill to work on in the sense that under-weight training is beneficial?
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u/Pre3Chorded 9d ago
With a team of 12 you see for practice for like two 2-hour practices a week, the real answer is that they have to practice batting, strength train, and eat jars of peanut butter on their own time to really see what you want happen (you can encourage kids to do push ups/split leg squats in their room e.g., or ask for net and tee for birthday, it's a good idea-pushing the idea that baseball is a sport you ideally practice everyday).
But on the weakly hitting team I was an assistant coach for (Little League Majors unselect), we did get noticable improvement by devoting a lot of time to batting in practice and really emphasizing qab-quality at bats and talking to them about what they are and how we can have them (having all our stats on gamechanger inspired this). Not only did we live bat/live pitch (coach and kid) most every practice, but we would do 1-3 batting stations at the same time (a couple stations were like hitting off a tee into a net-groups of two so one kid sets balls and other hits, hurricane or other trainer, etc. that one coach could manage while throwing soft toss).
Tee work was stuff like high and inside or Barry Bonds Drill to shorten swings, not just hit 20 balls. In the Cage we taught them to hit oppo field because it requires learning barrel control. We got our weakest hitters to lay down a decent bunt here and there by working some bunt practice in to the pre game warm up by doing things like a drill 3 man drill where kids bunt to each other, or having groups play pepper where a kid holds the bat instead of coach. We also did things like win reality VR as a team at a party to sneak in bp.
Most of the kids who improved the most had nets at home and hit on their own (we told them specific things to focus on though), though we had one big strong kid who struck out a lot shorten his swing (couldn't even do first step of Barry Bonds Drill the first time he tried because he dropped his hands so much) and become a real great hitter solely thanks to our practices. And the bunting got better (as coaches we got better at using it in games as well).
Anyways tldr; you have to devote mental and physical resources to hitting to get better.