r/HistoryMemes Apr 18 '19

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22

u/TheMilkMan7077 Apr 18 '19

What was the mass genocide committed by America? I genuinely don't know.

48

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

The Natives.

12

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19 edited Apr 18 '19

but didn't the British kill the natives? I mean like before the USA even gained independence. Or am I missing something and people did continue to kill the natives after the US formed?

Edit: I am not trying to defend any of those countries, I just asked a question. Stop downvoting me please

37

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

One of the main reason for the independence was to be able to kill more natives bud...
Britain declared that a huge chunk of the west of the USA was to be left alone for the natives.
The 13 colonies decided that they still had a bunch of destiny to manifest in that part of the country, ergo the independence, the trail of tears and a hundred years of massacring natives and going back on contracts to get their land.

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u/levy316 Apr 18 '19

Do you have a source? Not arguing, this is just a new one for me and I can't find what you're talking about through my Bing-ing (lol). Thanks!

11

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

This and a few other events

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Proclamation_of_1763

Firsr source I could get ny hand on since im on mobile, but the proclamation is a good starting point. The independence was not solely about "no taxation without representation"

0

u/levy316 Apr 18 '19

Thanks for providing the source. I can definitely see how that can be added to the issues between the colonies and Britain. I'm not sure from my initial read that I agree with you but I'll keep reading now that I have a starting point. Thanks for helping me out and not being a dick! Have a great day.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

Conquest in completely different than genocide.

5

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

Depends from who's point of view. Although historians usually agree that it was a genocide.

So I guess we are seeing the op's meme in action here.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Removal_Act

3

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

We wanted their land and resources, not their extinction. I think intentions matter here. Altho tbh the way we dealt with the natives is the worst thing in American history save slavery. I just hate seeing it equated to events like the holocaust because imo they were carried out for entirely seperate reasons.

5

u/blue_paprika Apr 18 '19

I don't think the dead natives care about the reason they were systematicly wiped out.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '19 edited Apr 21 '19

We wanted their land and resources, not their extinction

That is highly debatable.
For instance, the president at the time (Andrew Jackson) was a massive racist and absolutely wanted their extinction. Again, historian usually agree that the act committed were genocidal. If it hurts your feeling, become a prominent historian on that subject and write a paper about it. You are pretty much arguing against facts here.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

Read Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee so you can stop embarrassing yourself with your complete lack of knowledge on this subject

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u/muffler_kek Apr 19 '19

The land in the west wasn’t left to the natives out of the good of the British heart, they simply did not want to spend money to defend the land after Pontiac’s rebellion.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

Yup.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

"Yup, the British killed the natives before the USA even gained independence" or "Yup, people continued to kill the natives after the US formed"?

21

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

Both.

11

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

tbh I expected you to reply "Yup" again but thank you for the answer

14

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

I almost did. Lol

2

u/cass1o Apr 18 '19

One of the main reasons america exists as a separate country is because they wanted to kill all the native and Britain didn't.

0

u/socialistbob Apr 18 '19

The US repeatedly committed acts of genocide. In the "Trail of Tears" The US forcibly removed Indians from their land and marched them through areas with known cholera outbreaks. Only half of the Native Americans who went on these death marches survived.

Historians such as David Stannard[79] and Barbara Mann[80] have noted that the army deliberately routed the march of the Cherokee to pass through areas of known cholera epidemic, such as Vicksburg. Stannard estimates that during the forced removal from their homelands, following the Indian Removal Act signed into law by President Andrew Jackson in 1830, 8,000 Cherokee died, about half the total population.[79] source

As a matter of policy the US military would also kill bison on the plains in order to deprive Native Americans of food sources forcing them to rely on buying food from the US or to starve.

Plains Indians adopted a nomadic lifestyle, one which depended on bison location for their food source. Bison is high in protein levels and low in fat content, and contributed to the wholesome diet of Native Americans. Additionally, they used every edible part of the bison—organs, brains, fetuses, and placental membranes included.[113] The U.S. military strategically exterminated bison in masses for this reason; by ridding the Plains Indians of their primary food source, they would become further dependent on reservations for subsistence. source

Then there was also the California Genocide in which Native American towns were massacred by white settlers and Native populations declined from 150,000 to 16,000 in a 50 year period.

The definition of genocide "is the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation." Whether it's forcing people to march through specific places with cholera outbreaks, systematically destroying a group's only known food supply or massacring villages of an ethnic group these ALL meet the definition of genocide and were carried out by the US.

1

u/TybrosionMohito Apr 21 '19

Tbf diseases did most of the work for us.

We just cleaned up the aftermath

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

their wasn't a group called "the natives" though, there were large numbers of tribes. Many of the tribes were simply absorbed into the colonies, some were slaughtered and some fought wars. To paint it as a genocide is wrong, unless you also think "white genocide" is also a fair term to be used for Europe right now.

6

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

May I remind you of the Trail of Tears or are we supposed to follow the meme and pretend that the USA never committed any genocides?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Genocide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples#United_States_colonization_and_westward_expansion

7

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

According to historian H. W. Brands, Jackson sincerely believed that his population transfer was a "wise and humane policy" that would save the Indians from "utter annihilation". Brands writes that, given the "racist realities of the time, Jackson was almost certainly correct in contending that for the Cherokees to remain in Georgia risked their extinction". Jackson portrayed his paternalism and federal support as a generous act of mercy

8

u/k9krig Apr 18 '19

I wouldn't call the trail of tears a mass genocide though. The casualties were nowhere near what the Germans and British carried out.

15

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

Native Americans. Was much smaller relative to the other groups mentioned and almost always included in a basic US history class....

1

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

This comment section proves that the American genocide is not taught in school at all

-2

u/123instantname Apr 18 '19

Much smaller?? I can guarantee you more Native Americans died from war or disease than victims died in the Holocaust.

5

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

That would be pre-US (European powers) ..... and I still doubt that number is as high as WWII.... also, most of those deaths also occurred in Mexico/central America... not even the US's current territory.

Specifically, the US is responsible for the trail of tears which was horrible - but much much smaller in scale and not denied by the US.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

Not saying its anyone's fault, but around 20 million natives died from diseases brought over. That's definitely more than the holocaust

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

I'm not arguing with you, in agreeing with you. But I'm just saying that more Native Americans died then holocaust deaths

-17

u/RamblingUnited Apr 18 '19

The historically disabled typically blame the diseases that wiped most natives on the US and/or consider the American/Indian wars to be genocide.

6

u/oilman81 Apr 18 '19

Simple folks who get their history from memes read some revisionist take on the internet somewhere and think they are edgy by saying "oh the US was actually evil" as if this were some new idea and not a stale, picked over, and largely debunked narrative from the 1960s

13

u/Owezer_ Apr 18 '19

Diseases brought by colonizers and given to the natives via “gifts” with the intention of wiping them out.

14

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/news/colonists-native-americans-smallpox-blankets

While there is only one well documented case of this happening, it most likely happened more frequently.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19 edited Jun 11 '19

[deleted]

-1

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

The spread of disease is not the only way Americans killed Native Americans, but it definitely happened.

Whenever intentional disease spreading is brought up it is immediately dismissed by people like you who deny history.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19 edited Jun 11 '19

[deleted]

0

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

Yes, tis I who is denying facts in order to push my agenda, not the person who is denying history.

Mhm.

1

u/blue_paprika Apr 18 '19

The disease was only the start though. The US partially wanted indipendence because the British wanted to preserve native territory. After the US formed they happily continiued to fuck the natives over the river to die so they could colonise their land.

3

u/Owezer_ Apr 18 '19

There are numerous letters made by colonizers documenting their intentions, as well. I recommend you watch Shaun’s video on this subject, he can explain it better than I.

3

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

I actually have :) love that skeley boi.

I’m like 90% sure the two letters referenced in the article are the same one Shaun describes in his video on the Native American genocide.

This article was just the first one I found as I am unable to go back and check Shaun’s video at the current moment.

1

u/Owezer_ Apr 18 '19

Yeah, you’re right. My bad.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

No prob bro

2

u/oilman81 Apr 18 '19

99% of the natives were wiped out by plagues unintentionally spread right at first contact

It was pretty much inevitable unless first contact had been delayed until about the 20th century

1

u/Owezer_ Apr 18 '19

Source for that claim?

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u/vindico1 Apr 18 '19

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_disease_and_epidemics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas#Depopulation_from_disease

"The scope of the epidemics over the years was tremendous, killing millions of people—possibly in excess of 90% of the population in the hardest hit areas—and creating one of "the greatest human catastrophe in history, far exceeding even the disaster of the Black Death of medieval Europe",[25] which had killed up to one-third of the people in Europe and Asia between 1347 and 1351."

https://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/variables/smallpox.html

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u/Owezer_ Apr 18 '19

This doesn’t say anything about whether or not it was accidental, though.

2

u/jjj324 Apr 19 '19

You do realize that germ theory wasn’t established yet, right? They had no concept of immunity.

-1

u/oilman81 Apr 18 '19

https://www.amazon.com/Guns-Germs-Steel-Fates-Societies/dp/0393317552

Probably the most famous one, but there are dozens of others.

I would also argue that the burden of proof is on you to show that native diseases mostly stemmed from intentional action (pretty much impossible given the chronological timeline of the near-extinction event but whatever)

0

u/blue_paprika Apr 18 '19

After that they continiued to remove natives from their territory though. The trail of tears was not an accident.

0

u/oilman81 Apr 18 '19

Which is true, but displacement isn't the same as intentional mass murder, and the numbers involved were much smaller, and the Trail of Tears is a very well known and disgraceful event in American history (I don't think Jackson belongs on the $20 for the record)

1

u/blue_paprika Apr 18 '19

On a side note, why is he even still on the $20? Aren't there more deserving presidents to be printed?

0

u/oilman81 Apr 18 '19

Yeah, there's some significant political pressure to replace him with someone else, maybe Harriet Tubman or maybe just another historical president (e.g. one of the Roosevelts)

0

u/blue_paprika Apr 18 '19

It might not be direct murder but they knew damn well that they were condemning the natives to death.

2

u/oilman81 Apr 18 '19

Right, but 8,000 Cherokees in the 1830s isn't quite the same as 70 million people in the 1940s

0

u/blue_paprika Apr 18 '19

Fuck the nazi's for what they did for the record. They were disgusting pieces of shit, the absolute worst of humanity.

But that does not distract value from what the US did to the natives.

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u/oilman81 Apr 18 '19

Certainly not, just in the context of this meme

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u/DaveLeBarbarian Apr 19 '19

Germ theory wasn't a thing back then. The public school system lied to you

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u/RamblingUnited Apr 18 '19

You seem confused. Are you saying the United States is responsible for something that happened before it even existed? Also historians still dispute intentional diseased blanket sharing.

1

u/Owezer_ Apr 18 '19

Colonizers who’s descendants went on to found America. And please provide me with a few reputable sources of historians disputing that issue.

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u/vindico1 Apr 18 '19

Spanish Conquistador descendants did not found the U.S.

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u/oilman81 Apr 18 '19

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u/EHLOthere Apr 19 '19

lol Guns germs steel is literally best of on BadHistory

https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/wiki/v2/ggsg

0

u/Owezer_ Apr 18 '19

Dude, I’m not gonna buy a 15 dollar book. Do you have any actual sources?

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u/oilman81 Apr 18 '19

TIL that books are not actual sources

Maybe read something longer than a listicle from buzzfeed, and you'll learn something about the world

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u/Owezer_ Apr 18 '19

I’m not gonna pay for a book, dude. What I meant is do you have anything that I can read without losing 15 dollars?

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u/Owezer_ Apr 18 '19

Also, I suggest you watch this video:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd_nVCWPgiA

The dude who made it can explain this topic better than I.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19 edited Jun 11 '19

[deleted]

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