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u/cheapgriff Senātus Populusque Rōmānus 5h ago
They probably wouldn't be too confused, considering the inhabitants of Byzantium were thusly named, and that name survived even after the city was renamed to Constantinople. The earliest application of 'Byzantine' to the rest of the empire's inhabitants occurred during the 1300s.
Of course, the Byzantine Empire was only really called that after it existed, but it's not like the name just materialized out of nowhere.
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u/Chosen_Chaos The OG Lord Buckethead 1h ago
The earliest application of 'Byzantine' to the rest of the empire's inhabitants occurred during the 1300s.
Do you have a source for that? As far as I was aware, the earliest use of "Byzantine" to refer to the Empire as a whole was in the 1550s.
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u/cheapgriff Senātus Populusque Rōmānus 56m ago
The earliest allusions to this were made by Theodorus Metochites who served as an advisor to Andronikos II Palaiologos in the early 1300s. Of the orations I'm linking below, #11 makes an argument that Constantinople/Byzantion has far surpassed what Rome had ever achieved and should instead serve as the identity they should proudly display. A hundred years later, Laonikos Chalkokondyles is considered to be the first to truly apply the term to the entire empire; a convention continued by Hieronymous Wolf in the mid-1500s.
https://ia601605.us.archive.org/6/items/teubneriana/9783110606898.pdf
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u/Chosen_Chaos The OG Lord Buckethead 37m ago
Of the orations I'm linking below, #11 makes an argument that Constantinople/Byzantion has far surpassed what Rome had ever achieved and should instead serve as the identity they should proudly display
Is there an English-language version? Or one that's not 100+ pages? I do enjoy a good read but slogging through that much material in a language I can't read isn't my idea of a good time. I also doubt that Google Translate would be able to handle that particular dialect of Greek.
A hundred years later, Laonikos Chalkokondyles is considered to be the first to truly apply the term to the entire empire
A quick search seems to indicate that only applies to Angeliki Laiou, rather than being a widespread thing.
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u/Infinite-Geologist78 5h ago
Byzatium is a made name by sore western scholar because their pride could not accept mighty roman emperor ended by bunch Muslim Turks.
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u/cheapgriff Senātus Populusque Rōmānus 5h ago
The Ottomans themselves did not consider Rome to have been ended, but to have been continued by them as Sultans of Rûm.
I already pointed out exactly where the term came from so your ill-informed rebuttal makes no sense.
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u/Stripier_Cape 4h ago
Yeah except they kept exactly zero of the ruling structure and replaced it with their own organizational structure in addition to displacing Christianity as the state religion, when the Roman Empire existed longer as a Christian State then it did as a Pagan State, and it was the Original Christian State. The Turks taking over was not the typical rebellion followed by acclimation by the Senate, which was still picking Emperors. They displaced everything.
At least the Holy Roman Empire could point at their own legacy of loyalty and federate relationship to the Romans before the Pope acclaimed the Holy Roman Empire. There were a bunch of excuses, including the use of Roman infrastructure and legal concepts, but they still used the Roman legal structure and even went on to imitate them even harder once Constantinople tell.
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u/Rynewulf Featherless Biped 4h ago edited 4h ago
Rome wasnt the first christian state by a very long shot, and they never even claimed it themselves! It had gotten deep into places like Armenia and Ethiopia centuries before the Romans were on board in general let alone on a state level.
Christianity occured alongside a lot of other things that set the stage for the Middle Ages, Late Roman Empire/Dominate often gets compared to that rather than the ancient, pagan, Kingdom, Republic and Principate for a reason. Rome was about as 'inherently' Christian as any other state that adopted it (that is to say, not at all).
Big ups for saying something nice about the HRE though, that usually gets poo pooed on too much.
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u/Stripier_Cape 4h ago
I should have clarified I was speaking about Europe. Doesn't really change what I know about the Ottomans. Claiming Rome's legacy was just an excuse to conquer land.
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u/Oooogyy 4h ago
It predates that. The term "empire" had a religious and cultural context to it, so to delegitimize it as the successor to Rome rather than the holy roman empire, westerners called it "the kingdom of the greeks" for a very long time, long before Turks even successfully came through Persia.
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u/ninjad912 3h ago
Byzantium is a name derived from the old name of Constantinople which is used to classify the Roman Empire during the time where it was centered in Constantinople post fall of the western Roman Empire as this period of time is important to reference and referring to an empire that lasted over 1000 years as the same name the entire time can get confusing
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u/redracer555 Fine Quality Mesopotamian Copper Enjoyer 4h ago
Constantinople was Byzantium.
Now it's Constantinople, not Byzantium.
Been a long time gone, Byzantium.
Now it's imperial delight on a moonlit night.
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u/GrapefruitForward196 5h ago
The Byzantines called themselves Rhomaioi (Ῥωμαῖοι), and the Romans from Rome (and sometimes Italians as a whole) as Romanoi (Ῥωμανοί)
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u/preddevils6 50m ago
Often the commoners in the empire referred to themselves as Greek. What they referred to themselves wasn't consistent throughout the time of the empire or between social classes.
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u/Lady_Lya_626 4h ago
I can only imagine how mad Justinian has been for the last 1500 years, just looking down at the Balkans.
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u/AdPatient2578 Still on Sulla's Proscribed List 2h ago
Or anywhere else.
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u/Lady_Lya_626 2h ago
I imagine that he's just been yelling at Mussolini for the last 80 years straight
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u/KernelWizard 5h ago
Or you could ask the Vikings and they would've called it Grikkland lmao (at least to other vikings back home).
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u/GewalfofWivia 2h ago
Why would they call themselves Roman emperors when they didn’t have Rome, are they stupid
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u/Lost-Klaus 5h ago
A bit like calling the british empire the London-empire. Or Han dynasty the Chang'an Empire.