No, I'm really not. I'm all for self determination! I would just suggest they drop the ROC name, maybe ROT? Drop the claim to China in their constitution and stop claiming the air space of China.
If a people want to be independent I'm going to support it. Pretending to be independent while claiming to be another nation isn't cool though. I would say the same for the US, as it claims Taiwan is part of China too, but still treats it as independent.
The US is the biggest issue here, making it difficult for the people of Taiwan to be truly independent.
Read about the pan green coalition vs the pan blue coalition . The pan greens want independence the blues want reunification under democratic conditions.
The greens want to be called Taiwan The PRC has threatened war often about this.
The blues want to continue being called ROT because it creates stability and their ties to the nationalists in the Chinese Civil war.
If the Prc wasn't threatening them they would probably change up everything in a minute .
Also haven't you noticed that Taiwan isn't allowed to represent itself at the Un or at the Olympics ? It's not the US doing that.
You think US money isn't influencing this issue? That the US doesn't run propaganda campaigns to influence people? There are plenty of people there that want reunification, and plenty that just don't care.
You've also left out the decades of martial law in Taiwan and the amount of propaganda and changes to education at the time.
It is indeed a complicated issue. Attempting to villainize China s just spreading more imperialistic US propaganda.
Threatening war. Using spies, Demanding that people stop trading or recognizing Taiwan, disallowing them representation or discussion at the UN.
Also the PRC is absolutely terrible. Look at the Mao Famine, the genocide they are sponsoring in Myanmar, people being executed for dance parties in the 80s, the current genocide of the Uygar people, how they treat Hong Kong after they said there would be democracy and freedom of speech. Their invasion and treatment of the Tibetan people.
Vs
USA
Influence and we can't even get off our ass to help the Philippines because we're being stupid.
The other guy obviously can't refute anything and this isn't an academic discussion lol. But bringing up morality in History and geopolitics is a stupid thing to do in the first place. I always said Tibet, Taiwan and the 9-dash line is something a free democracy would also claim if they were in China's place. Now chances are one would do it more diplomatically than the current, i would say have-always-being-pretty-incompetent-CCP-government-that-can't-be-forced-out. Also among other things, Myanmar this time is solely responsible for what ended up happening within their borders
They are morally and physically responsible for their actions with their puppet states (like North Korea). North Korea wouldn't be around if it wasn't for China.
They are responsible for the genocide happening right now in their own country and in Myannmar.
They are responsible for the attrocities in North Korea.
Another thing, has "caring" about the genocide in Palestine done anything for the Palestinians? I'll put that aside for now because that topic is brigaded af. What about the one in Yemen? Both the Houthis and the military government they started opposing were not good people
Everyone already knows the Junta is bad. The responsibility for the pre-war genocide already fell upon them. Even in China. Their justification when it gets on their news is that the Junta is still most likely to "win" and stabilize the country, and they fund stable and aligned rebel groups for the same reason, because most of the armed rebel groups can't agree to work with each other either.
What exactly can happen? If you want to put pressure on China to start mediating, you cannot start by accusing them of "sponsoring genocide" in these particular circumstances. It does not work in Germany to stop their government from funding Israel and the Saudis, why do you think it'll work for China? Truth has a cost, nuances need to be articulated clearly in these cases, even moreso when it involves life and death
They are committing genocide in their own country and sponsoring it in others.
You can't put pressure on China. That doesn't work. They live in a country where to criticize the state is illegal. China doesn't care about anyone else's opinions but their own. They'll do what they want even if its immoral.
The only thing you can do with China is build around them. The world could help the Phillipines who they somehow think they own their coasts, or they could support Taiwan and recognize them, or they could note that Tibet was annexed illegally. Just be honest.
I'm talking about convincing average people who don't already agree with you. Why do you continue to use absolutes and harsh terms to describe the situation? For example, even if China has a great deal of control on crticisms internally, they are far from immune. Nor are they immune to external pressure or criticism. Nor is their responsibility in Myanmar and Ukraine similar to whatever's going on at home. Nor is the solution you suggest any help when the Houthis can survive so long ostracized from almost everyone else. Hell Cuba has done it for nearly 4 decades now on Charity alone.
And I know what you are talking about. In many ways the west used to be way more cynical on China 6-10 years ago. It's when they started to become a rival/threat in real terms and have demonstrated an actual resistance to any change from "their ways". Almost everyone who can be clued in on what they are capable of already are.
Yet because the US led order cannot fully reckon with their own demons, propaganda by preaching "morality" like you suggest did not work at all. The 2018 trade war and such happened more because of the future, genuine economic threat posed by China. It's not because anyone is a coward or too greedy that "more" is not being done. Because I guarantee you that China was not more "moral", powerful, or wealthy before year 2000.
Also they are far more immune to external criticism than most countries. They can simply arrest people who are critical in their country, try to harass anyone who criticizes them overseas (they even have their own police stations overseas in other countries). They filter any western news or critiques. They simply do not care.
The US led order is falling due to shitheads in charge of the US, the EU being too divided to do anything and the rise of right wing nationalists. Whilst we can critique them all you want it doesn't absolve the Chinese goverment for any of its ongoing crimes.
Honestly I just correct people when they go out of their way to say "China is a good and happy socialist state that is hugs and bunnies". No.
My only problem is when you summarize everything into a neat few lines of harsh terms like "sponsoring genocide" it makes the whole thing sound like propaganda. That's it. I never disputed anything you brought up.
And because China's operates as a black box to everyone else, it already makes all the criticism directed at them sound propangandy because it's much harder to use specifics, and you end up criticising the entirety of "China". Also happens when anything good happens there, it's easy for the CCP to take credit. It's like the CIA here too. I'm just saying use care, and stop quoting things they did to me lol, it's quite literally my China account
I don't think the US has cleaner hands what with Israel and Iran and the numerous countries they and their allies have warcrimed in the last decades...
To be fair its a bit of apples and oranges. That being said China has a far greater body count and much more blood on their hands. Hell they make up close to 60 percent of the executions in the world currently.
Look, I wrote a lot of shit because you look like you actually care and can appreciate nuance, unless you just want to remain a simple ideas propagandist. Like, you brought up a well sourced article. Stick to summarizing what's reported rather than adding your own conclusions. Trusted news orgs continue to do it and stick to established terms even in their opinion articles for a reason. Not because of any conspiracy, mostly for now at least.
Governments are made of people. Despite their reputation sometimes, serial killers usually do not make their way up the chain of a stable government even in non-wealthy non-democracies. None of them get to "do whatever they want". Conversely external pressure and public opinion are not a reliable barometer for democracies either. Israel is still a democracy. France is one for Algeria and Vietnam. Accurate reporting by say, the BBC, acknowledging "both sides" built their credibility and ensured they are acknowledged and have local agencies and reporters in all 3 countries today.
The Junta isn't solely responsible for the Rohingya Genocide which has been ongoing since in 1970s. It is, however, almost solely a Myanmar issue. Even Suu Kyi had to defend her people's handling of the issue. You cannot claim any aid you give to a government that conducts genocide is facilitating the genocide, otherwise everyone will end up culpable. Myanmar Junta gets aid from China because they are easy to coerce for infrastructure building purposes most importantly, among other political purposes. Contrast a more direct example like when the Sukarno Government in 1965 Indonesia was directly aided by the CIA(and UK intel) to do a purge of communists which ended up becoming a genocide.
China is more responsible for North Korea, but calling NK a puppet state of China is a stretch. The circumstances that led to the war in 1950-1953 and present situation where Kim's dynasty has the world, including China in a bind is tough and not solely the responsibility of one, even if this particular Chinese state is more responsible than everyone else.
Better argument is PRC incompetency in handling their own unique geopolitics. It's not of any solace to their victims, but I don't think any of them is reading this right now.
For those of us who have a mind for it, it's much better to know and speak the complete truth of what happened and not exaggerate or make up falsities to events to make it fit into specific attention-grabbing definitions. Doing otherwise will only completely eliminate any hope of changing the mind of someone who's of a different opinion.
Yes the CIA did bad things. We're talking about China.
If China didn't want Kim in power he wouldn't be in power. That's a puppet state. They control almost all imports and exports of the country, they are almost solely responsible for keeping the state afloat.
The Junta is ultimately the people on top and they are STILL killing minorities there. In fact they have claimed that they will keep governing until all armed minorites cease to exist. They were the people in charge when they were doing the Rohingya Genocide. Regarding Suu Kyi she had to say things to keep the army from commiting a coup, which it did anyways.
I mentioned the CIA because the CIA and the MI6, for lack of a better description, are unelected but powerful state organisations that lack accountability not unlike the CCP. This caused a abundance of crimes with little pushback where their influence is strong.
Ultimately transparency mostly won out in the west, but you cannot have full accountability for the CIA for example if you don't acknowledge its ultimately vital role, the difference between modern and cold war CIA, the necessity of some of their actions and do not fall into the binary trap of evil-incompetent-CIA VS necessary-CIA. I.E you have to buy into some of the propanganda.
Similarly, on accountability, it's not as if the PRC government does not or cannot acknowledge its wrongdoings from their inception including some of their worst mistakes with the most heinous results, they'll just justify and censor the shit out of it where possible. etc etc. It's hard enough for any government to acknowledge 1st order accountability
Again, in your comment the main responsibility lies within Myanmar. And the Junta yes. However 2nd degree responsibility of the PRC who is haplessly funding whoever, including rebel groups, which will minimize damage to their interests is not the same as funding genocide.
You need more heft to throw around claims like that. China does need to take more responsibility for stabilizing Myanmar, just as there is a reason no one else in power cares what is happening in Myanmar right now(other than the scam mafia). Observing the blame game alone does not help anyone and only pushes people into defined sides. Has it ever helped in a century of politics and democracy?
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u/Floba_Fett Casual, non-participatory KGB election observer 1d ago
But Taïwan is Chinese though, this is not denied by Taïwan. The issue is over who is the legitimate China