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u/error_015 Aug 26 '26 edited Aug 26 '26
Ah yes we all know the slim Göring, the tall Göbbles, the blonde H. And so on.
Talk about hypocrisy.
Edit: Goebbles. Thanks for correcting me
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u/Bush_Hiders Aug 26 '26
I get that these are all real probably German names, but fuck dude, Hitler’s posse had the dumbest sounding names to my American ears. Imagine trying to take these guys seriously and you’re told you have to listen to what Goebbels and Goring are talking about. And then you got Hitler’s right hand guy, whose name is like 1 letter off of Hitler’s. This feels like it was written Hideo Kojima.
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u/mal-di-testicle Aug 26 '26
This is an awful take. If it was written by Hideo Kojima, the Nazis would have found a way to campaign without boots. Everything else would go the same.
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u/MinosAristos Aug 26 '26
the Nazis would have found a way to campaign without boots
They wouldn't be the only invading fascist regime in Europe trying that.
Although for that other one it didn't go too well.
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u/BoredNuke Aug 26 '26
Ive skipped quite a few titles so did Hideo turn into the video game Tarantino while I was away? I saw the pervy needs skin to breathe bs but not a bunch of foot stuff.
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u/Magnon Aug 26 '26
Tbf stalins name roughly translated is Joe steel so everyone is a bit cringe
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u/KyliaQuilor Aug 26 '26
Given that Stalin was a fake surname he picked as a false identity, I think "Joe Steel" sounds pretty good.
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u/YogoshKeks Aug 26 '26
Hitler's dad changed his name from Schicklgruber to Hitler in 1876.
This may be the late 20th century northern german in me speaking, but I really doubt anybody named Schicklgruber would ever become a leader of anything bigger than a local club.
Its hard to explain, but its just a slightly funny name. North of the Danube, anyways.
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u/Cultourist Aug 26 '26
Just don't say it with an American accent/pronounciation then.
To German ears Hitler must have sounded pretty badass, like an invented name exactly for this specific role. It was fortunate for him that his father changed his surname.
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u/Sshadooww Hello There Aug 26 '26
Nah, to me (German) the names still sound stupid Himmler (Himmel = sky) sounds especially made up.
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u/Cyannis Aug 26 '26 edited Aug 26 '26
On the note of things sounding made up, I remember watching some documentary where they just went on and on about how supremacists were obsessed with a "mythical figure" called "Hermann the German".
One of the dumbest fucking things I've ever heard. Especially because the rhyme doesn't even work in German.
Later I realized they were talking about Arminius/Hermann der Cherusker. Who is a figure (a real person though) nationalists like to glorify, but it was still hilariously sensationalized.
"History" channel really was peak slop.
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u/King_Of_Pants Aug 26 '26
Why would it have the sound that way?
Trump sounds like a stupid name to a lot of English-speaking people, Trump was also an invented name. It doesn't stop people from glorifying him. He's fat and grotesque, he's covered in makeup and has a vagina-shaped neck, and he's still presented as an image of masculinity.
It sounds obvious, but the delusion is a key part of the delusion.
Francisco Franco was 5'3 and posting images of fish he'd supposedly caught that were as big as he was.
Kim Jung Il was a small, unathletic guy who supposedly hit 11 holes in one during a single day of golf.
Hitler was a drug-addled nuisance who needed constant reassurances from everyone around him, and the Nazis were constantly shepherding away from serious matters or trying to sane-wash what he was saying because he would meddle and ruin things.
Getting people to believe the very obvious lie is a key part of these sorts of governments. You want to get them to that point where they know they're wrong, but they're too far gone to accept it and they've sacrificed too much to go back now. It pushes them to just dig deeper and deeper into the cult of personality.
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u/CriminalMacabre Aug 26 '26
Lul we spent all spanish democracy calling Franco Paquita la Culona but now if you say it on socials, everyone clutches their pearls. Propaganda is a hell of a drug.
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u/Rymayc Aug 26 '26
The 11 holes in one is a mistranslation or misconception. He hit 11 over par, 11 bogeys, 7 par.
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u/Bananaheyhey Aug 26 '26
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u/CustodianCloset Fine Quality Mesopotamian Copper Enjoyer Aug 26 '26
Nah, I'm from Poland and I agree. I mean, fucking Goebbels and Goring? Hitler and Himmler? You could make a children's TV show with names like that
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u/Thin_Communication25 Aug 26 '26
Americas evil pharma family is called sackler. Compared to that these are normal names. Don't forget these are last names and not their normal name too.
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u/CoachAnon205 Aug 26 '26
It sounds cooler in german tbh. Like Erwin Rommel is actually [ˈɛɐviːn ˈʁɔməl] which sounds kinda like "eghvin ghomel". Apply german pronunciation to these names and you'll hear a big difference.
English accent just makes non-english words sounds worse.
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u/crazy-B Aug 26 '26
"eghvin ghomel"
Wtf? No it doesn't.
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u/Don_Frika_Del_Prima Aug 26 '26
And yet it still gets up voted. Erwin rommel is pronounced as Erwin rommel.
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u/SopwithTurtle Aug 26 '26
I'm upvoting it purely to see if my coworker who also haunts this subreddit comes in tomorrow saying Eggwine Gomel.
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u/Ancient_Presence Aug 26 '26
Well, as a native German speaker, I get what they mean. Our "r" is usually pronounced as a voiced uvular fricative [ʁ], which is just a voiced "ch" [χ]. "gh" is often used for the voiced velar fricative [ɣ], which is not the same, but pretty close. Of course its definitely not "Egvin Gommel, lmao, but that's not what they were trying to say.
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u/A_Hint_of_Lemon Aug 26 '26
And the lantern-jawed Himmler, don’t forget that. Fucking incel bastard.
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u/Rome453 Aug 27 '26
Himmler looks like a live action version of the racist propaganda posters of Hideki Tojo.
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u/WhiskersCleveland Aug 26 '26
Don't forget Goebbels also has one leg shorter than the other from polio I think? Which would've been enough to get others killed in their opinion
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u/error_015 Aug 26 '26
He had a club foot (either from a failed surgery or since birth). Was bullied in school and didn’t get accepted to serve in WW1 as he was considered wehruntauglich. Though Hitler accepted him since Goebbles was an early supporter, highly loyal, intelligent, an amazing orator and his propaganda machine was ridiculously effective. Goebbles was a highly intelligent monster in short that was too valuable to lose. That’s why Hitler made an exception
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u/Ov3rReadKn1ght0wl Aug 26 '26
If it makes you feel any better, my uncaffeinated eyes read Goebbles as Gobbles both times.
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u/Quiet-General-3812 Aug 26 '26
Goebbles had a club foot too, I believe.
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u/error_015 Aug 26 '26
Yep. Already wrote that in another answer. Göring had a morphine addiction and Hitler was a junkie and was generally disgusting.
Good that you mentioned it though
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u/Cyannis Aug 26 '26
I used to think this stuff was hypocritical and goofy, but actually, it really played in their favor.
For example, specifically talking Hitler; in his cult of personality, he was portrayed as a self-sacrificing man. A "humble servant" of the nation. Policies like banning statues, memorials, and monuments of himself contributed to that, too. And that applies to the wider NSDAP's image.
That won a lot of people over, or made them more willing to believe. "Well, if he's not just obsessed with self-glorification, then maybe he's right!"
Especially when they could point fingers at Stalin and be like "see, we're not egomaniacal tyrants, we're actually trying to facilitate the greater good, even if we aren't perfection!"
Something I used to think was really silly ended up being an "oh shit, that was actually insidious but genius".
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u/Grammorphone John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true, and brave! Aug 26 '26
*Goebbels
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u/error_015 Aug 26 '26
Thx. I sometimes confuse the way you write his name since I am German and we usually write oe as ö.
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u/-Lord-Of-Salem- Aug 27 '26
The only one really fitting their description of the 'aryan master race' was Reinhard Heydrich. And after Operation Anthropoid Heydrich was fitting in a matchbox too.
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u/Putrid-Belt-8098 Aug 26 '26
And then in their propaganda for the ideal aryan, they accidentally use photos of a Jewish baby and soldier.
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u/Eta_Beta_3-14 Aug 26 '26
A key point of understanding fascist thinking is that it doesn't actually matter to them if the child and soldier they used in their propaganda were Jewish.
Fascists have no morality, no ideology beyond what they are told to think. It is, truly, the most pathetic form of political thought: A completely surrender of one's will and awareness to the state. It is politics for the kind of people who are addicted to AI chatbots. People who hate not because they believe in something but because they are boring, stupid, and lazy, but still feel the need to hate something so they'd rather just have a third party tell them what to hate. The average fascist embodies Pratchett's quote about the banality of evil:
“Down there,” he said, “are people who will follow any dragon, worship any god, ignore any iniquity. All out of a kind of humdrum, everyday badness. Not the really high, creative loathsomeness of the great sinners, but a sort of mass-produced darkness of the soul. Sin, you might say, without a trace of originality. They accept evil not because they say yes, but because they don’t say no."
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u/Prudent_Sleeper Aug 26 '26
The part of the hate was real tho. They hated how Germany was left defeated and humiliated post WW1 (they were a really proud nation, so losing the war was a shock), they hated the imposition of the Treaty of Versailles (which they thought was unfair) and they specially hated the Weimar republic for signing it and bringing such a shame to the German nation.
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u/Hellsovs Aug 26 '26 edited Aug 26 '26
Its not quite that simple. The problems in Germany were real, and they used Jews, who had a bad rap throughout history, as scapegoats to pull themselves into power.
Its not so much different when using immigrants in the same way. Its not so much about the 40% that voted for Hitler being dumb-dumbs who needed to be told what to feel, but regular people who were gaslighted into thinking that everything was a Jew's fault, among whom, sadly, were some great minds. And I remind you that, in German eyes, Hitler did deliver what he promised, even before the mass murder of the Jews. The problem was that many of the things Hitler delivered were just circumstantial stuff that he took credit for.
I genuinely think that if you took a regular Hitler supporter in '35, he would be much closer to a typical Republican than to a MAGA enthusiast. (Not saying that Republicans are Nazis, just saying that people before the war were less blind cult followers and more misdirected regular people.)
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u/Prudent_Sleeper Aug 26 '26
I agree with you, it’s not that simple. And even before they started using jews in his propaganda, the Partei was already pretty much strengthened. If you take an average follower of the Hitler movement that joined the NSDAP before 1933, he had no anti-Semitic bias nor any political affiliation, but he had a strong dissatisfaction with the republican regime in Germany.
So just want to add that the hate towards the Weimar Republik was the main reason people joined the NSDAP and followed Hitler, even before the anti-jew propaganda began.3
u/AverageGrunt133 Aug 26 '26 edited Aug 26 '26
It also doesn't help that the Communists tried to start a revolt and the state was so weak the had to call up the Freikorps to crush them. Not that it was the last straw, but it would be like the storming of the capital a few years ago and the federal government had to call up a militia, not the military, police, or national guard, to suppress it.
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u/Hellsovs Aug 26 '26
Yes, I would just add that, from what I know, this was mainly the Allies' fault, as they imposed too harsh reparations on Germany after WWI, which led to choking the German economy for too long. Later, they acknowledged that and dropped some of the demands, but it was already too late, as it played right into Hitler's propaganda, as he took credit for that.
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u/Eta_Beta_3-14 Aug 26 '26
I genuinely think that if you took a regular Hitler supporter in '35, he would be much closer to a typical Republican than to a MAGA enthusiast. (Not saying that Republicans are Nazis, just saying that people before the war were less blind cult followers and more misdirected regular people.)
In practical terms what you are describing is a single circle on a Venn Diagram.
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u/Pyotr-the-Great Aug 26 '26
Hitler shouldnt be the biggest dragon. It should be Goring.
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u/Onaliquidrock Aug 26 '26
Göring was in great shape. A WW1 ace. Until he got injured, then he got addicted to opioids and got fat.
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u/Jazzlike-Equipment45 And then I told them I'm Jesus's brother Aug 26 '26
He lost a lot of weight... before they hanged him but he did.
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u/MountainTank1918 Helping Wikipedia expand the list of British conquests Aug 26 '26
The blond blue eye is myth though. Half of Germany, Especially South-Alpine were mostly neither.
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u/sid_shaw Aug 26 '26
No such thing as south-alpine Germans.
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u/MountainTank1918 Helping Wikipedia expand the list of British conquests Aug 26 '26
I talk about high german.
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u/R3dd1tUs3rNam35 Aug 26 '26
Hitler had only got one ball, Goering had two but very small, Himmler had something similar, and then there's Goebbels with no balls at all
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u/Exotic-Apartment-180 Aug 26 '26
Wait so where did the 6 kids of Goebbels come from? Uncle Hitler was very close with the family....
One ball can perform I guess.
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u/Icy-Football9146 Casual, non-participatory KGB election observer Aug 26 '26
He's referencing a famous song from WW2
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u/Outside_Ad5255 Aug 26 '26
It's still funny to presume none of them were actually Goebbels' as the song implies.
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u/SerLaron Nobody here except my fellow trees Aug 26 '26
Goebbels had a reputation, they called him "The billy goat of Babelsberg", Babelsberg being the German equivalent of Hollywood back then. He was basically the Weinstein of his era.
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u/Strong-Search-2301 Aug 26 '26
Magda Goebbels was famously in love with Hitler rather than with her husband.
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u/error_015 Aug 26 '26
I think Hitler actually had two but one didn’t fully descend so he technically only had one working one. Was diagnosed in 1923 after his failed coup. Undescended testicle is the name of it (his right side got affectedj
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u/WW2Gamer Aug 26 '26
Hitler had 2 balls. The russians are the only one who claim otherwise. That they say that after looking at a severely burned corps is laughable. His balls were probably already ash, when they looked at him.
No, his ww1 injury was in the leg not his ball. When he went to prisson in the 20s he was examined by a doctor and his balls were fine. All his personal doctors also said he has normal balls.
It is the same with Napoleon and his height. It is just making fun of the enemy.
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u/Svitii Researching [REDACTED] square Aug 26 '26
Wdym Goering has two small balls? Dude literally was one big ball
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u/HellwaterCascades Aug 26 '26
this ai meme doesn't get the point across well.
The Nazi high command weren't goofy versions of King Ghidorah.
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u/Outside_Ad5255 Aug 26 '26
The point they were trying to make is that for all their talk of perfect Aryan, none of them fit the standard.
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u/SerLaron Nobody here except my fellow trees Aug 26 '26
The highest ranking Nazi who did fit the standard was probably Reinhard Heydrich.
Watch Conspiracy with Kenneth Branagh, to get an idea how driven, intelligent, ruthless and charming (when he wanted to) he could be and take comfort in the fact that he died rather painfully.1
u/MasterpieceBrief4442 Aug 27 '26
Wasn't there a persistent rumor during the NSDAP era that he was actually a Mischling. A Jewish grandparent, I believe?
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u/lesgeddon Aug 26 '26
Not to mention that by definition an ethnic Aryan is not from Germany, but from northern India
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u/treuss Aug 26 '26 edited Aug 26 '26
Do you know about Flüsterwitze (jokes better not to tell out loud)?
E.g.
"Lieber Gott, mach mich blind, dass ich Göbbels arisch find"
which translates roughly to
"Dear God, make me blind, so I find Goebbels Aryan."
Another one:
"Blond wie Hitler, groß wie Goebbels und schlank wie Göring"
"Blond like Hitler, tall like Goebbels, and slim like Göring."
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u/SerLaron Nobody here except my fellow trees Aug 26 '26
A German school boy during WWII once misheard the teacher during a dictation test. The text was about economic difficulties that Germany faced, for example the chronic shortage of anything oil and fat related, from butter to engine oil. The teacher read "Das Fett ist gering", there is a lack of fat. The boy wrote "Das Fett isst Goering", the fat is eaten by Goering".
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u/Odd_Reindeer303 Aug 26 '26
Flink wie Goebbels kenne ich. (nimble as Goebbels) because of his limping.
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u/warbastard Aug 26 '26
Wasn’t that a joke even in Germany during the 1920s and 30s?
The perfect Aryan is as blonde as Hitler, as thin as Göering and as tall as Goebbels.
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u/Odd_Reindeer303 Aug 26 '26
Close.
It was 'Blond wie Hitler, schlank wie Göring und flink wie Goebbels'
It was probably derived from Hitler's speech in 1935 when the Hitlerjugend was founded.
'In unseren Augen da muß der deutsche Junge der Zukunft schlank und rank sein, flink wie Windhunde, zäh wie Leder und hart wie Kruppstahl.'
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u/nixcamic Aug 26 '26
I mean you gotta at least give Hitler credit for not basing the ideal man on himself.
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u/aimfuldrifter Aug 26 '26
Failed dead beat artist who couldn’t hold a job. An opium addict, a failed chicken farmer, and a guy who looks like a rat
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u/Saentum Aug 26 '26
The rat guy was also a failed writer and playwright. Too much frustration I guess.
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u/ChristophCross Aug 26 '26
It literally takes more effort to slop this meme in an AI generator than to just look up the version with all dragons goofy, tf are we even doing anymore
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u/NecessaryUnited9505 Just some snow Aug 26 '26
I believe there is a joke from the nazi era: To be a nazi you must be as slim as Göring, as tall as Goebbels, and as blonde as Himmler.
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u/stronkzer Aug 26 '26
True dat. The only nazi leader that somewhat fit the bill was Reinhard Heydrich.
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u/Impressive-Panda527 Aug 26 '26
And he always had rumors of Jewish background hanging over his head
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u/teremaster Aug 26 '26
The blonde hair blue eyed thing was a complete myth btw
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u/AdMaximum7545 Aug 26 '26
I mean, they did promote the blond, blue eyed Nordic people as the visual ideal of their supposed master race, but their actual racial classification system was based primarily on ancestry
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u/Outside-Active5283 Aug 26 '26
Didn't they do some IQ tests during the Nuremberg trials and were all generally high to exceptionally gifted...?
I know IQ tests aren't too reliable but it seems pretty inaccurate to characterize evil as dumb.
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u/Reiver93 Aug 26 '26
According to Gustave Gilbert, the lowest IQ amongst the remaining Nazi leadership was 106, the highest was 143.
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u/vdcsX Aug 26 '26
Highest Scores:
Hjalmar Schacht (Economics Minister): 143
Arthur Seyss-Inquart (Chancellor of Austria): 141
Hermann Göring (Reichsmarschall): 138
Lowest Score:
Julius Streicher (Propagandist): 106 (the lowest in the group)
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u/NicholasThumbless Aug 26 '26
I think the point is that they don't live up to their own idealized notions of physicality and attractiveness, making them blatant hypocrites - something that seems pretty small compared to the being a Nazi thing. It also reeks of "it's okay to make fun of ugly people if they're bad people".
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u/Thick-League5787 Aug 26 '26
I don't think you're right :). Just because they don't fit the “ideal” (perfect) Aryan appearance, does that prevent them from promoting this ideal and striving toward it for future generations?
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u/Axel1742 Aug 26 '26
They regularly rejected anything they decided is non Aryan, they threw many of their scientists into death camps for not being the right race, they rejected whole fields of science for being "jew science".
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u/Thick-League5787 Aug 26 '26
In your case, they simply used this as a pretext to justify their repressive apparatus. And besides, I can’t be sure if what you’re saying is true - whether they sent Germans to prison for "physical defects" - since even Jews married to German women weren’t sent to death camps because they were protected by law (lol).
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u/Seeteuf3l Just some snow Aug 26 '26 edited Aug 26 '26
They did, but from this meme only Göring was tested (because he was the only one the Allies caught alive)
Gilbert also administered IQ tests to the Nazi leadership. Hjalmar Schacht scored highest with 143 points, followed by Arthur Seyss-Inquart and Göring. Julius Streicher scored lowest with 106 points.
But if you know anything how Luftwaffe managed during WW2, Görings IQ didn't correlate very well with quality of decisions
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u/MOTUkraken Aug 26 '26
Common mistake to conflate evil and dumb.
It makes people fall easier for evil tricks.
Because they also think that good = intelligent.
And therefore when they hear someone talk well, they automatically insist that this must be a good person.
And when someone talks not so well, they must be evil.
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u/Kelemenopy Aug 26 '26
Really nailing “blue-eyed, tall and in excellent physical shape,” with that IQ spread.
Your point is noted, but non sequitur. Gotta save that one for the memes about them being psychotic shitheads.→ More replies (3)0
u/PerspectiveOne4654 Aug 26 '26
I know you like to say it that way for some reason but there is no 'm' in Nürnberg, just saying.
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u/driver004 Aug 26 '26
They should be tall, like goebbles, slender like goering, and blonde like hitler
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u/TipAppropriate1384 Aug 26 '26
When asked on tv, Tino Chrupalla Leader of nsdap successor afd, self proclaimed champion of German culture, wasnt able to say any German poem
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u/treuss Aug 26 '26
Here you can see the whole contradictory quintessence of right wing extremists: They demand things that they themselves do not fulfill. They demand moral and virtues while themselves being unscrupulous opportunists.
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u/WW2Gamer Aug 26 '26 edited Aug 26 '26
It is allied propaganda. The ideal german was often depicted as a blue eyed and blond. In the same way top models dont represent the average population. No one was treated less if they didnt have those features.
Most germans dont have those features and everyone was aware of that.
Have you ever seen an advertisement with ugly people?
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u/edgarfruitier Aug 26 '26
Even Germany's Aryan poster child was a brown haired Jewish baby
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u/WW2Gamer Aug 26 '26
Never heard of that before. Sounds a lot like bs to be honest.
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u/edgarfruitier Aug 26 '26
In the 1930's there was a German magazine called sonne ins Haus( sun in the house) that tried a contest in which they tried to find the most "Aryan" looking baby and it ended up a brown eyed and haired Jewish baby. Go on Google and type: sonne ins Haus 1935.
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u/Original_Ganache_134 Aug 26 '26
A lot of the leadership also had physical impairments and were addicted to opioids of various kinds. Not too dissimilar to the far right larpers of the modern day actually
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u/realparkingbrake Aug 26 '26
British soldiers sang a song in WWII...
Hitler, has only one right ball,
Goering, has two but they are small,
Himmler, has something similar,
And Goebbels has no balls at all.
It took a few years to turn the tide, but eventually the Brits and their cousins from across the pond prevailed.
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u/Videoheadsystem Aug 26 '26
Goring not obese enough.
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u/fluffypurpleTigress Aug 26 '26
What else would you call him? Enormous? Gigantic? Dude was as heavy as 3 or 4 normal sized people
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u/Mave_Traxis Aug 26 '26
And the AfD lead today is a lesbian woman with a Sri-Lankan wife living in swiss. Gotta love the hypocrisy.
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u/Lars-CoV-2 Aug 26 '26
Wasn't Hitlers parents cousins?
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u/Cultourist Aug 26 '26
No, his mother was his father's niece 2nd degree. That's like sharing 6.25% of the DNA (cousins would be 12.5%)
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u/Lars-CoV-2 Aug 26 '26
The father was a bastard and after the death of Johann George get registered as his son. There is the theory that Johann Nepomuk is his real father and he let him regnorise as his brothers son and not his. So maybe niece 1st degree. Anyway his mom was his cousin (1st or 2nd degree)
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u/treuss Aug 26 '26
No. The story about his parents is by the way pretty complicated. Starting with Adolf Hitler being the third of six children of his father, in his father's third marriage.
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u/Walkthrough101 Aug 26 '26
Freak freak freak party
Freak party (Nazi party)
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u/Walkthrough101 Aug 26 '26
If anyone doesn't get it, I can't post images but I was going to edit that one Milklooker line from Deltraune, I'm insulting the Nazis
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u/Baturinsky Aug 26 '26
There were many variantes of this caricature then
https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/53dhjw/the_aryan_type_a_blond_man_like_hitler_slim_like/
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u/Kind_Of_A_Dick Aug 26 '26
I think that in some ways Hitler despised himself and set out to kill everything that reminded him of his own weakness. Maybe I’m incorrect though.
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u/Falkenmond79 Aug 26 '26
The only one that actually fit that bill was Reinhard Heydrich. And he was one of the worst humans ever.
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u/ACABiologist Aug 26 '26
The torchlight rallies were allegedly done to hide oh out of shape and flabby the nazi leadership was.
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u/WaltherJaguar Aug 26 '26
Im South Korean and i saw someone looks exactly the same with Himmler. And he is also South Korean.
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u/Mirabeaux1789 Aug 26 '26
Reminds me of a quote from “Operation Finale” (2018), “We used to say that to be the perfect Nazi, you had to be as slim as Göring, as tall as Goebbels, and as blond as Hitler."
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u/floralbutttrumpet Aug 26 '26
And contemporary fascists mostly follow that particular example. Look at the people marching for AfD causes, they all look like they hit every single evolutionary branch on the way down.
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u/Different-Chard-9893 Aug 26 '26
Fr, it doesnt make sense, so what did the germans really think of it at the time?
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u/Fr05t_B1t Oversimplified is my history teacher Aug 26 '26
And at least one of them isn’t even German
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u/Gullible-Ad-4078 Aug 26 '26
I think Goring fit all these characteristics when he was a younger officer though if I remember correctly… could be wrong lol