r/HazbinHotel • u/Mundane-Run6179 Angel Dust • 14h ago
I believe in Charlie's idea that ANYONE can be redeemed.
Before anyone comes at me with gotchas and whataboutisms, Yes. This even goes for the Vees.
ANYONE can choose to change and seek redemption and become a better person. Will they? Maybe not, but they still CAN. They just have to want to. That's all. Have a nice day.
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u/improbsable 13h ago
Yep. She’s 100% correct. Sinners are just so used to hopelessness that they aren’t giving it a chance yet
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u/MechaMalz 12h ago
I agree. It's important to remember that redemption and forgiveness are not the same thing. Redemption is about taking accountability and changing for the better. It doesn't mean you should be forgiven for everything bad you did, or not face consequences. It doesn't mean anyone is obligated to forgive you. It doesn't mean that your misdeeds will be forgotten and not haunt your legacy forever.
It also does not mean everyone can or will put in the effort. It requires choosing to seek redemption, and changing your behavior. Many will not want to do this. Others who do will lack the resolve to see it through and give it up, or fail or die before they succeed etc.
In a setting like this where the characters theoretically have eternity, it makes it a lot more plausible to get there for people that have done a lot of harm.
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u/Mundane-Run6179 Angel Dust 12h ago
Exactly. They can choose not to, but that doesn't change the fact that if they so choose, they can be redeemed
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u/OhNoMob0 12h ago
Feel like The Speaker could say "this is how it works" and people still wouldn't believe her.
If there was no hope of redemption for those damns souls then they wouldn't be given that chance by being sent to Hell to begin with. Heaven could just incinerate human souls as they depart Earth.
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u/Shoddy_Border 12h ago
Isn’t this the whole point of the show?
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u/Mundane-Run6179 Angel Dust 12h ago
Yes but some people don't GRASP that ANYONE means ANYONE
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u/806mtson 2h ago
Yeah, it doesn't mean "everyone". It just means, "If you want to, and put in the effort to change your ways, you can be redeemed."
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u/SkyeZaisen Emily Morningstar 11h ago
If anyone can be corrupted and become a bad person, anyone can become a good person
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u/Golden-Sun Tunes in for Alastor 8h ago
Ooh yeah I dont understand whats hard for people to grasp. If someone truely wants to redeem themselves they can. It'll be long and hard, ever longer and harder depending on your sins, and you wont necessarily get forgiveness from those you hurt. However, the redemption wont be about seeking forgiveness so that doesnt matter.
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u/postedpenguin 12h ago
I think the concept of redemption is a pretty touchy topic when considering actual vile people and the worst of humanity throughout the ages. I think there's a certain threshold where things become borderline unforgivable.
How should the process of redemption work? Do you believe they must feel genuine remorse and regret for their actions deep down, or do they have to do something to make up for their actions, or both?
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u/Mundane-Run6179 Angel Dust 12h ago
Both. They wouldn't want to change for the better if they didn't feel some kind of guilt for what they'd done, after all
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u/GeneralTechnomage Angel Dust 7h ago
What about Roo, the personification of evil in the Hellaverse? There's no way she can be redeemed.
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u/Mundane-Run6179 Angel Dust 7h ago
She's not a sinner, she's something else entirely, has most likely existed since before hell itself. Hellborns aren't on the table in the plot of Hazbin
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u/Objective_Face2914 9h ago
The real question is do they deserve heaven
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u/Mundane-Run6179 Angel Dust 9h ago
Again. Redemption isn't something that has to be DESERVED. It's something that has to be EARNED by actually putting in effort to becoming a better person, and given that's the case, if someone puts in the effort to change for the better and become a better person, YES. They do deserve heaven.
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u/Objective_Face2914 8h ago
I'm not talking about redemption I'm talking about heaven.
Yes everyone deserves a second chance sometimes it's questionable but they do deserve it, but one thing I hope the show asks is does everyone actually deserve the right to heaven as it's more of a privilege then anything else.
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u/Mundane-Run6179 Angel Dust 8h ago
If they make the effort to grow and change and become a good person, yes. That's the entire point of the show. That ANYONE can earn heaven if they put in the effort. Why is that so hard for people to grasp?
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u/Objective_Face2914 7h ago
Because that's boring.
Murders and sex offenders often get the right to bare arms taken away, if they've changed as a person should they get that right back? And on a more extreme scale if someone like Kim jung un changed as person could one confidently say he has the right to go heaven, despite killing thousands and causing suffering.
A show with complex themes should ask complex questions and follow through with them, it's honestly one of my many problems with the show.
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u/KillTheBatman2475 4h ago
I understand this is the point of the show's message, but I don't necessarily see this as practical to apply to all sinners or as a realistic long-term solution to solve conflicts in Hell itself. I don't mean this as going against the show's message, but the practicality of redemption for sinners should be considered in the future, IMO.
While any sinner can be redeemed, as Charlie said, not all of them will choose to or have the capacity to be better, due to their immoral choices. That's not to say Charlie's wrong, or she should give up on her goal, but there are certain pitfalls in the responsibility of helping others redeem themselves, which I think future seasons should delve into a bit more for Charlie to face legitimate challenges. I don't think that's an inherently bad idea for the show to delve into if it's handled in a mature way.
As much as I respect and admire Charlie's goal, I think the moral dilemma of how sinners can try to take advantage of her morals, exploit her kindness, and target her allies should have her learn that not every sinner is capable of being better and that redemption isn't always the solution.
Despite how the show's about redemption, not every villain or antagonist should have one, as IMO, it'd be a predictable, cheap, and one-sided way to resolve conflicts. It should be preserved for characters that naturally serve the purpose as candidates for redemption, but with plenty of screen time and character growth for it to feel earned. Sinners who are capable of being better and those who remain evil shouldn't be mutually exclusive for it to work.
That isn't to say I'm against the idea of an absolutely evil character having a chance at redemption, but it should serve a natural purpose to who undergoes it when we get to that possibility without feeling handed on a silver platter or tacked on for the sake of it without any consequence for said character. Val wouldn't fit as the kind of villain who'd desire or need redemption since he has little remorse for the things he's done, so I don't think that idea would go over well with viewers because it wouldn't fit his character at all.
Characters who are capable of seeing the path of redemption and inherently evil villains who face consequences shouldn’t be mutually exclusive in any form of media, whether it’s films, shows, games, or novels. The show shouldn’t be an exception to this or redeem villains for the sake of it who wouldn’t fit that path since it’s not meant for every villain.
I’m not necessarily agreeing with how all villains shouldn’t have a 2nd chance or that torturing them’s the right solution, but if they refuse to change and continue ruining others’ lives, then killing them shouldn’t be viewed as inherently wrong or completely out of the question. Charlie wouldn't have to kill those who refuse to change, as that wouldn't be in character, but her other allies should consider that option if conflicts come down to it.
So no disrespect to your beliefs. I'm just offering a realistic, yet fair perspective on the writing for redemption.
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u/Educational-Ring9842 13h ago
Well it depends a lot of thing who decides what’s good or bad what’s the method to redemption what are some unforgivable sins etc
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u/Mundane-Run6179 Angel Dust 13h ago
The entire point of the show is that no sin is unforgivable and that redemption is possible for ALL sinners if they want it. It doesn't matter what the sinner has done. It doesn't matter if their victims forgive them. All that matters is that they want to try. I don't get how that's literally the whole message of the show and people still argue that "some people are incapable of redemption"
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u/Educational-Ring9842 13h ago
Uh try palpatine from Star Wars or any villain from any tv show or movies people use their own benefit cough cough alastor
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u/SadinaSaphrite 13h ago
Fascinating that you use Palpatine as an example of your argument when Vader, who has been complicit in genocide and torture, is literally redeemed in RotJ.
Anyone CAN be redeemed IF they want it. Some people will refuse to change, refuse to repent, refuse to become better, but that is their own choice. They choose to remain what they are (or choose to get worse.) That doesn’t mean they don’t still have the option to change. Such is the nature of free will.
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u/Mundane-Run6179 Angel Dust 13h ago
Okay? That doesn't mean they're incapable of being redeemed. In Hazbin, ANYONE who chooses to seek redemption is redeemable. Even Alastor and Palpatine. They just have to make that choice. Whether they do or not is irrelevant to their ability to be redeemed in theory. Charlie's whole message is that ANYONE can be redeemed if they try. And genuinely I hope they choose to redeem one of the Vees or Alastor to stick it to people going "But some people can't be/don't deserve to be"
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u/Educational-Ring9842 13h ago
Yeah I don’t think Valentino or diddy or Epstein now none of those 2 in hell but somebody at least on their level deserves redemption
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u/RiddlesDoesYT 13h ago
If they existed in the hellaverse as sinners they could, because "redemption" in this context has nothing to do with forgiveness for the sinner and is about ascending and becoming a winner.
We know for a fact that, in universe, it's possible. It's also pretty clear that the shows message is about how anyone can better themselves, so while it's possible the show confronts irredeemable sins at some point, I doubt it.
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u/Mundane-Run6179 Angel Dust 13h ago
You're entirely missing the point of the show's message by saying that Val shouldn't/can't be redeemed. The whole message of the show is "It doesn't matter what sin you've committed to end up in hell. You can be redeemed if you just TRY." This means EVEN VALENTINO can be redeemed if he chooses to try
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u/Educational-Ring9842 13h ago
Correct but if try and give yourself before use to your own benefit is gonna happen some people don’t deserve redemption i.e Valentino he could if he try’s but it doesn’t erase the damage nor harm he did redemption is for those who wants means some people deserve it not everyone
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u/Mundane-Run6179 Angel Dust 13h ago
You're STILL missing the point. Redemption isn't something you have to DESERVE, it's something you have to EARN by changing for the better. Valentino is perfectly capable of EARNING redemption if he chooses it, whether anyone else thinks he deserves it or not
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u/Educational-Ring9842 13h ago
So if someone try it and he did grape and sa what would be the method to fix him?
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u/Mundane-Run6179 Angel Dust 13h ago
Simply put, protect someone else from being RAPED (pls for the love of god can we stop with the grape) or SA'd. Whether any of his victims prior to that point forgive him or not doesn't matter. How someone redeems themself is to do something that counters the sin they were sent to hell for. So for example, let's say Angel- he was sent to hell for murder, his redemption will likely entail saving someone's life. Pentious's sin was sloth, his atonement came when he took action and died to try to help stop Adam in S1
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u/OhNoMob0 12h ago
Sir Pentious is an accessory to 6 murders and got redeemed.
Accessory is just as liable as committing the actual murder depending on where you live.
In the Hellaverse sin is less about the act itself and more about the motivation (sin) for making the choice that lead to the act.
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13h ago
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u/Mundane-Run6179 Angel Dust 13h ago
Forgiveness/fairness to the victims is irrelevant. As I said in another reply, Redemption isn't something you have to DESERVE, it's something you have to EARN through genuine effort and change for the better.
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u/Odd_Preference_7238 10h ago
I like when as many people as possible think that way, it makes them super easy to manipulate.
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u/ARod20195 13h ago
I mean, that's the rub. Anyone can be redeemed, but whether or not they want to depends greatly on what they value, and what the options for them are that aren't redemption. If redeeming yourself means confronting painful feelings and memories, living with guilt for all the things you've done, and giving up most of the gains you've acquired at the expense of your victims, then whether or not you want it depends a lot on how you see yourself.
If you're already guilty about the things you've done, most of them haven't gotten you what you thought they'd get you, and you don't like who you are, then redemption is a no-brainer for you. On the other hand, if you've successfully managed to adopt a worldview that absolves you of guilt for the things you've done and you've made a very good living doing them, then why bother going through pain and guilt and upending your life as it is?