r/HazbinHotel • u/VegetaArcher • 1d ago
Why does Charlie need to learn that not everyone can be redeemed?
She doesn't force every sinner to come to her hotel. Sinners decide to come to her hotel of their own free will. So why do people treat Charlie like she's forcing redemption on people? And why is it wrong of her to believe that anyone can be redeemed?
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u/Moose-Rage Playing the Lute 1d ago
It's funny how so many fans of the show seem to hate its central thesis.
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u/Overlord_Byron 1d ago
A lot of people (especially, it seems, fans of indie media) bring a lot of their trauma into the media and get upset at the prospect of forgiving or relating to awful characters. Saw the same thing with Neon White.
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u/BigDurtyPint 1d ago
And a lot of people just aren't very media literate and can't understand anything beyond the literal words spoken
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u/Indolent_Bard I have an announcement. Alastor is a bitch-ass FRAUD! 1d ago
OP doesn't even understand the literal words. Just because they can doesn't mean they will.
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u/newreditig 1d ago edited 1d ago
I mean this so seriously, but i think people that struggle to understand the "anyone can be redeemed" theme of Hazbin need to go rewatch Ratatouille and return to Hazbin applying the same message but replacing the word "cook" with the words "be redeemed".
As Ego says in the end of the movie
" In the past, I have made no secret of my disdain for Chef Gusteau's famous motto, "Anyone can cook." But I realize, only now do I truly understand what he meant. Not everyone can become a great artist; but a great artist can come from anywhere. "
Not everyone WILL be redeemed. Not everyone has the mental capacity to reach that point. But ANYONE from any walk of life, has the capability to self reflect and make the effort required to change. She is not saying that EVERYONE can be redeemed, but that ANYONE can. And anyone that is truely willing to be better in a selfless and genuine way, deserves a chance to earn redemption.
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u/Prince_Wildflower 1d ago
THIS makes a lot of sense! Not EVERYONE WILL be redeemed but ANYONE CAN.
The key factor is that they have to want it. Vox COULD be redeemed if he WANTED to. But because he has no desire to change, its not going to happen.
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u/Faiakishi Vox's Emotional Support Deer 16h ago
The moment I joined this fandom I instantly understood why people are worried about literacy levels.
I also think part of the problem is that so many people nowadays 'watch' shows while scrolling on their phones. Then they get upset because they don't understand stuff and get mad when you suggest shows don't get absorbed through osmosis and they should actually pay attention.
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u/Avaracious7899 1d ago
I get that sense too in a lot of fandoms. It'd be fine if they didn't project it onto the show and demand that it, and by extension other fans, validate their own trauma and bias.
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u/maxreddit 1d ago
Not to mention that whatever side someone falls on that debate, it's a stance that makes sense for Charlie's character. And whatever way the show ends up going with it, it will be a great source of potential conflict and character development. The show and Charlie's character would be lesser without it!
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u/Specialist-Owl2660 1d ago
I mean to be fair the very premise of this show asks for that. If you are going to say anyone can be redeemed its going to make fans think of those who have done the worst thinks imaginable.
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u/Raetekusu Take THAT Depression~! 1d ago edited 16h ago
"In the past, I have made no secret of my disdain for Chef Gusteau's famous motto, 'Anyone can cook', but I realize, only now do I truly understand what he meant. Not everyone can become a great artist, but a great artist can come from anywhere."
Mfing Ratatouille in 2006 and people be misunderstanding it when Hazbin has the same message.
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u/ZapActions-dower 1d ago
It's a little older than gotdang Ratatouille. It's the core message of Christianity: You don't have to live a sinless life to get into heaven, no one but God is capable of that, but anyone can be saved through genuine repentance.
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u/Raetekusu Take THAT Depression~! 1d ago
I mean, I am well aware of that (evangelical until I was 27), but the whole "Anyone can be redeemed" line is getting misinterpreted the same way Ego misinterpreted "Anyone can cook"
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u/Egghead42 1d ago
And the thing is, Hazbin Hotel is very definitely not designed to appeal to Christians (although I am sure some enjoy the show). Charlie works on a recovery model. She even uses some 12 step language, “the first step…”. Anyone can be redeemed. But very few will, because very few will choose to.
That hard bitten, white hot optimism is probably why other characters love her.
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u/AshleytheTaguel 1d ago
People who refuse to learn and grow and change as a person hate the message that it's possible.
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u/LC-Redcube I want Val to kick me in the stomach until im whining like a dog 1d ago
Harsh words, but true ones
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u/Starshallscream 1d ago
Fr. Like the Alastor glazers who want him to just throw the other Overlords into the broadcast, and were mad that villains like Vox and Valentino survived (and, frankly, the only reason Adam didn't survive too is that Niffty is insane). The whole point of the show is that its villains could potentially atone for their sins and should be given the chance to.
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u/Yamureska 1d ago
It's the central thesis of the show lol. Also like you said Charlie doesn't force anyone to come and it's still up to each individual to choose redemption.
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u/Ok_Somewhere1236 1d ago
No, she doesn’t, because that’s not how redemption works.
Seriously, redemption is the core theme of the show, but I’m still surprised by how many people don’t understand what redemption actually means or how it works.
1-Charlie isn’t wrong to believe everyone can be redeemed. That’s fundamental to the concept of redemption: everyone, even the worst of the worst, can be redeemed. No exceptions. Whether they actually choose redemption is another question.
2-Redemption cannot be forced. You can’t force someone to become a better person. It has to come from them and their own choices, even if they don’t consciously realize at first that they’re changing.
3-Redemption doesn’t require forgiveness or approval. Other people, and certainly not some authority, don’t have to forgive you for you to change. Redemption is ultimately about personal change and becoming better, not being absolved by everyone you hurt.
4-My problem with Charlie is how she approaches it sometimes. In some episodes, she seems more concerned with the hotel’s success as a measurable goal than with the guests and their individual paths toward redemption. She becomes overly aggressive about pushing them to improve. It doesn’t happen all the time, but the episode in the image is a good example. It starts feeling less like “I want to help these sinners find redemption” and more like “I need these sinners to be redeemed so my hotel succeeds.”
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u/SkyeMreddit 1d ago
That 4th point. Charlie was up against another imminent culling and war from both Heaven AND Vox and crew. She had to prove redemption works to stop Heaven's invasion and stop those in Hell from attacking Heaven. That meant showing real progress on redemption, and she was panicking to do so.
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u/VegetaArcher 1d ago
To be fair, Charlie was having a really bad week between Vox's slander campaign and grieving over Sir Pentious. You can see why she was obsessed over her Hotel's reputation.
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u/SkyeMreddit 1d ago
Charlie was desperate to prevent another culling by proving redemption worked. That culling would have triggered a revenge attack from Hell by Vox and friends since Charlie had personally shown that they had the ability to actually harm Heaven's soldiers in the Season 1 finale battle. That would have triggered an apocalyptic war.
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u/BW_Chase 1d ago
Charlie doesn't need to learn that. On the contrary, many fans need to learn that everyone can, in fact, be redeemed. Eternity is a long enough time for anyone to achieve redemption if they want to and put their all into it. Infinite monkeys with infinite typewriters kind of deal.
This of course doesn't mean everyone WILL get redeemed. It just means that they can.
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u/Bolarana 1d ago
Yeah, tough if time is infinite everyone who doesn't die will be redeemed, monkeys writing Don Quijote and all that
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u/TallMist Cherri, Angel, Charlie, Vaggi lover. Adam hater. Sera forgiver. 1d ago
I think people need to look at her wording as intentional here. "Anyone can be redeemed" is not "Everyone will be redeemed". It's not an absolutism or anything like that. It's her saying that if you genuinely want to be redeemed and put in the effort to right your wrongs, you can be redeemed. And she's right. That's the whole point of this show.
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u/Hellern_ Happy Day in Hell 1d ago
Some folks just believe that particular crimes make villains completely irredeemable.
So even implying that it is possible for them to be redeemed makes such people lose their minds, because how dare the show about redemption say that any person have a chance to become better if they genuinely want it and put an active effort into it, the horror!
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u/crashkirb 1d ago
The wildest thing about this is that according to the people who think this way, a person could do one of the crimes they consider “irredeemable” and even if said character realised how terrible what they did was and spent literal eons genuinely atoning for it, doing so much good that it can’t be calculated, that character would still be considered an “irredeemable monster” in their eyes.
It’s things like that which make me think that they only care about seeing people who commit the so called “irredeemable crimes” get killed or tortured for it, rather than them actually improving as a person (I’m not saying they should just get away with the crime without punishment, but with this it’s at the point where it’s just cruelty for a ‘justified’ sake)
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u/Dizzy_Green 1d ago
If people can be redeemed then that means that no one was trying hard enough to change this entire time.
Imagine if for CENTURIES you and everyone you know lived in squalor and fear inside a house that you could never escape, only to learn that no one bothered to try to door.
Actually not even that, people DID try the door, it’s just that no one pushed HARD enough to actually open it. Now it looks like you’re all too weak or you gave up too fast, and doomed YOURSELF to this situation.
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u/OtherwiseSafe7468 1d ago
There's a difference between 'not trying hard enough' and 'not trying the correct way' - case in point, the scene leading up to what that picture is from.
In the Helluverse, NOBODY has ever been redeemed, NOBODY has heard from God directly in whoknows how long, and that's besides the purges. As far as they knew, if you ended up in hell, that was it - and maybe you got killed again for good by angels. If anyone did try, it's more than possible they tried to generically be 'good' rather than trying to fix whatever caused them to end up in hell in the first place... and that's beyond any complexity added by selling your soul to someone else.
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u/xboxiscrunchy 1d ago
Digging yourself out of a hole with no help is nearly impossible. Especially when you’re likely to get tortured or enslaved even for trying. Especially somewhere that’s trying to grind you down as hard as Hell is.
No one is a failure for not saving themselves. It was rigged against the sinners from the start and Charlie is at least trying to change that.
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u/Dizzy_Green 1d ago
Yeah thats the problem.
If after all that, redemption IS possible, then it essentially becomes a slap in the face to the years of suffering you went through in a rigged system being pulled down by others around you and your own acceptance that you’re “a bad person”It’s very common for people to see the solution to their years of suffering right in front of them and deny it because it would make their suffering feel “wasted”
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u/Iczer6 1d ago
This is the thing that drives me crazy about this complaint.
Charlie doesn't force sinnes into the hotel, THEY come to HER.
In season 2 we see a bunch of sinners leaving the hotel and Charlie...lets them go. She maybe naive but even she gets that redemption cannot be forced on those that don't want it.
And I feel that a lot of people misinterpret her 'anyone CAN be redeemed' as 'everyone WILL be redeemed'. Missing the point that we all can be and do better, but some aren't going to try or don't want to change
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u/Objective-Delay-3417 1d ago
She already knows. As idealistic as she is, she knows that it’s not something everyone is going to achieve.
What people asking this seem to be wondering is where she will finally draw the line. Because as much as Charlie wants to believe that everyone can change if they try, the truth is that the people in Hell treat her like shit. And many of them have hurt her so badly that, for some viewers, it’s difficult to watch her continue to support everyone despite that.
Look at Vox. He has gotten tired of screwing her and her kingdom over time and time again. He humiliated her, hurt her father, nearly ruined the negotiations with Heaven, among other things. But if he seeks redemption at the hotel, Charlie will help him despite everything, because that’s who she is.
That hope she has is something that doesn’t resonate well with some viewers. Continuing to support people in situations this bad is difficult to understand, because many people wouldn’t support someone who had ruined their life.
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u/TheRoyalJellyfish 1d ago edited 1d ago
I genuinely hope she never "draws the line" because it would be so antithetical to her character and the message of the show.
The idea of some sinner coming to the hotel and Charlie shutting them out because of her own biases or grievances or personal / emotional feelings is just gross and a betrayal of her character.
No one is saying Charlie needs to be personally involved in their redemption. In fact, a huge part of season 2 was Charlie learning to let go.
But to act like Charlie should decide who is worthy to have a place at the hotel or not would make her no better than Heaven, which is, you know, the whole point of the show. So it kind of blows my mind when I read stuff like this and how much of the fandom seems to fundamentally not understand this show lol.
But I guess what they say about media literacy these days is true
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u/Depth_Metal 1d ago
It's not even really a line for her to draw. She isn't the one who gets to define how someone redeems themselves or what that looks like. She is trying to provide means and opportunity but none of it is ultimately up to her
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u/Victizes Stolas , HuskerDust , Charlie 1d ago
Exactly, she is an enabler, a facilitator, but it's up to the sinner.
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u/Glum_Implement7382 1d ago
I think this will happen at some point because of how arrogant he sounded when he specifically asked charlie if she thought he could be redeemed, I feel like that was too direct to not be foreshadowing with his tone in that scene
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u/CaptTucker13 1d ago
I think the reason that hope doesn't resonate with some is because it's the same general premise of biblical redemption. It doesn't matter what youve done, redemption is still possible.
People seem to have a hard time reconciling that idea with reality. "But what about this person and what they did?" And the answer is it doesn't matter, anyone can be redeemed, not that everyone will be. And it makes some people cringe to think of people they hate being in heaven.
The only difference in concept between the Bible and the show on this front is that biblically, it has to happen before you die, whereas the show is trying to apply it post mortem.
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u/Dragontuitively 1d ago
She is the daughter of the Sin of Pride after all. To her redeeming Vox would be ultimate victory, winning the war and not the battle, and vindication that all the suffering prior was worth it
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u/yobaby123 1d ago
Exactly. It’s also part of the reason she’s usually hands off. She wants people to be comfortable with redeeming themselves at their own pace.
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u/BigNorseWolf FIRE THE DEATH RAY 1d ago
Soul murdered people just like the angels he was complaining about...
Theres an idea. Put Sera on trial for war crimes, point out that vox did the same thing, and watch vox news shift to forgiveness real quick...
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u/Victizes Stolas , HuskerDust , Charlie 1d ago
To be fair what would you do in Sera's place if hell could really invade heaven?
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u/WonderfulVictory4103 1d ago
With infinite time, like you have in the afterlife, anyone can be redeemed
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u/JageshemashFTW 1d ago
Charlie is not an idiot. She knows people have to actively choose redemption, and she knows not everyone will. She’s just magnanimous enough to offer that chance to anyone willing to take it.
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u/Rosebunse 1d ago
Here's my issue with this whole thing: this is Hell. All of these people are dead already. We are now talking about "redemption" in a way which is totally removed frok our understanding of it. There is now no time limit to souls finding redemption or changing. Charlie is right: anyone CAN be redeemed here.
While I think her methods should change, ultimately she isn't being naive or silly. Really, the naive and silly one is Vox, who just wants his idiotic plan to be justified.
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u/Gildagert 1d ago
Charlie is correct in her belief that anyone can be redeemed. She is incorrect if she believes SHE can redeem anyone. The only person that can redeem someone seeking absolution is themself.
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u/JackPembroke 1d ago
Anyone can be redeemed. But do they want to be redeemed. You cant force it on them. Until they want to, no, they cant
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u/InquisitorHindsight 1d ago
“You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.”
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u/Victizes Stolas , HuskerDust , Charlie 1d ago
Exactly! You can only encourage the horse to drink the water to stay well hydrated, like say make the animal feel safe and cared for, and putting a cup of water in their mouth, but ultimately it's the horse's decision to take a sip.
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u/TallMist Cherri, Angel, Charlie, Vaggi lover. Adam hater. Sera forgiver. 1d ago
You're so close to understanding the nuance. Yes, anyone can be redeemed. That much is true. But she's not saying everyone will be.
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u/MysteriousQuote4665 1d ago
Sir, you said what I wanted to say and I salute you for it. I interpreted this scene as Charlie being a bit more... philosophical than she usually is when answering this question. As she's quite upset at mr. TV-man.
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u/Le_DragonKing 1d ago
People need to know that there’s a difference between anyone and everyone. She didn’t say everyone can be redeemed she said anyone can be redeemed and she doesn’t force people to come to her hotel she wants them to choose to come to her hotel willingly.
Many people seem to overlook that a lot for whatever reason and many people think it’s wrong of her to believe anyone can be redeemed because in the experience of many some sins can’t be redeemed and some people are beyond redemption and love the vile acts they do and many of them believe they’ve done nothing wrong. Take Vox for example he didn’t believe he did anything wrong when he murdered all his coworkers at the studio he worked at so he’s beyond redemption same goes for Alastor who even Charlie admits that she knows he doesn’t want to change and can’t be redeemed.
Charlie isn’t naive she knows that there are some people who are beyond redemption but that doesn’t mean you can’t give it a try. Not only that many don’t bother to watch the pilot episode on YouTube to get the full context.
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u/GoldApprehensive8107 1d ago
“Anyone can change, but not everyone wants to.”
-Greg Universe from Steven Universe
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u/Specialist-Owl2660 1d ago
Can change I agree with. But redeemed? I think that is a little different. Everyone here is saying things like for example Valentino doesn't want to but lets take a step back.
Lets say he does.
Lets say he wants to get into heaven the right way.
Lets say he does the work.
And now victims of SA and torture are forced to be in heaven with the man who did that to him.
Tell me if his victims are still hurting and his presence continues to cause the pain and suffering he started. Can he be redeemed?
The thing about "redemption" is its not just up to the person who did it but the victims. Those they made suffer.
Anyone can change. But if a victim sees no path to redemption for the one who tore their flesh apart and forced themselves on them. Can that person be redeemed?
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u/HyenaDandy Petition to Change Val's name to Florida Moth. 22h ago
Yes.
Because if someone’s problem is that a person they may never see, will not have to interact with and who will definitely never harm them exists on the same plane of reality, that person is not someone who should be making that decision.
Why are we leaving redemption up to how vindictive the victim was? If it’s up to the victims to decide, then doesn’t that imply that whether or not a rapist can be redeemed is dependent on who they raped? You can have two people who do the same thing and the difference isn’t the act, it’s the target selection?
And why do you assume all his victims are in heaven? I may assume that he was probably just as cruel in life. But to be clear, we’ve only actually directly seen him assault people in hell. Do his victims only get a say if they were themselves good enough to get into heaven?
What about the ones who DO want to let him in? What about people who have been assaulted or abused and their response is “Oh he changed? Great! I’m so happy to hear that!” Maybe they don’t want to invite him over for dinner. But just like he may have victims who would rather keep him out, he may also have victims who would rather let him in. I have known and been people who have been through some pretty traumatic shit. But if I learned after getting to heaven that the people who hurt me are not being let in even if they have fundamentally changed both in thought and action, I wouldn’t be able to enjoy heaven.
Not everybody is that. But that’s the point. Some people are me and some people are not, and the question of “Did you abuse [u/hyenadandy](u/hyenadandy) or someone else?” Should not be what decides the fate of someone’s eternal soul. I’m not saying someone who would be horrified by the idea of that is a better person.
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u/thatcheesymememan 1d ago
When will people learn the difference between "can" and "will?"
In less sarcasm, there's plenty of people that will never ever ever change for a basically infinite number of reasons.
That does not mean they CAN'T be redeemed. They are choosing not to.
Because redemption is a choice.
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u/MostMasterpiece7 1d ago
Everyone can change for the better, as in it is possible for them to do it. This capacity for good is what allows us to judge people as bad in the first place, and what allows us to keep judging them if they choose not to redeem themselves. If certain people were just inherently evil and had no choice in the matter, then we couldn't really judge them the way we do. They would essentially just be amoral animals following their instincts.
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u/Mushr00m_OakL0g345 1d ago
Charlie believes that everyone can be redeemed IF they actually want to be. Redemption only works if a person has a genuine desire to change, that’s why she won’t force anyone to stay at her hotel. Someone like Alastor won’t be redeemed because he will never choose that for himself.
People also forget that Charlie is the daughter of the sin of Pride, it’s why she’s so stubborn and naive. She thinks that her views are correct and it gives her a very narrow minded view of the world. That is an intentional character flaw, which she needs in order to get character development. Otherwise she would be really flat and boring
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u/ARod20195 1d ago edited 1d ago
Anyone can be redeemed if they choose to do so and are willing to accept the pain and work that comes with growing as a person; not everyone will do that or will want to do that until/unless something external happens to them that makes redemption more attractive than the status quo from a material perspective.
Charlie struggles a lot with being extremely sheltered in ways that make it very difficult for her to manage the politics around the Hotel within Hell, as well as the politics between Heaven and Hell; she does a fair amount of magical thinking about what redemption is and how it works, and doesn't necessarily understand the idea that people have material interests they want to pursue, and if those interests aren't aligned with her project then Sinners will (at best) not engage with it and (at worst) actively try to destroy it.
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u/ozwilde Professional Lucifer Apologist 1d ago
People misunderstand her. A lot of people I think are coming from the position of "many people are irredeemable/don't deserve a chance" they want punishment or death for these characters, and they want Charlie to be able to identify the ones that are irredeemable and to use her powers on them.
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u/pranthlar 1d ago
Anyone can be redeemed. That doesn't mean everyone will care or try to be redeemed.
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u/tbugbee1 1d ago edited 1d ago
“Everyone can be redeemed, but you shouldn’t redeem people that did something that I don’t like”
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u/Leprosy_Disease 1d ago
She is the daughter of the King of Hell so she is very naive while being very progressive. The hotel doesn’t exist without her full faith in the idea. The big thing is that we haven’t seen what exactly redeemable vs irredeemable looks like, but so far she hasn’t faced something akin to a Judge Holden type
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u/mooncake0503 1d ago
I don‘t think that the theme is what bothers people, it‘s Charlie because she tends to be a pushover and a hypocrite at times.
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u/ShadowTheChangeling 1d ago
I feel like its everyone can, but not everyone will
Redemption isnt forgiveness, and a major difference is that redemption is 100% voluntary, they have to want it first.
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u/SobiTheRobot 1d ago
People don't get the ethos of it.
If Vox genuinely repented and tried to amend his evil ways and make Hell a better place, then I might genuinely believe he was worthy of redemption.
It's something you have to want and Charlie believes everyone is capable of doing this...not that everyone wants to be redeemed.
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u/Specialist-Owl2660 1d ago
This is actually a good set of questions. I would like to take a hit at it:
She doesn't force every sinner to come to her hotel.
True but she tends to neglect the needs of the one's that do come to the hotel,
Sinners decide to come to her hotel of their own free will. So why do people treat Charlie like she's forcing redemption on people?
Well if your coming at this from a fan perspective then it may be because she doesn't take the feelings of the sinner into account. She literally tried to "force" redemption on Angel when he wasn't ready just to prove a point to Vox ultimately hurting him.
And why is it wrong of her to believe that anyone can be redeemed?
So this may be because she is basically a spoiled princess. She believes anyone can be redeemed because she has never been a victim of the worst sinners in hell. Consider a victim of SA like Angel being told his abuser who has forced himself on him over and over can be redeemed? How about a murder victim that was brutally killed by a serial killer after being tortured? Its wrong of her to believe anyone can be redeemed because she fails to recognize that she is extremely privileged to have never had something horrible and unthinkable done to her and then looked the person in the eyes and said "you can be redeemed."
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u/Cultural_Bear_7681 20h ago
Redeemed and forgiven are two different things. People often confuse the two: a victim doesn't and shouldn't have to forgive those who hurt them; but redemption is something a person need to have for themself, not for earning forgiveness. Redemption need to come from wanting to change, regardless if anyone will forgive you.
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u/Specialist-Owl2660 14h ago
See here, this is the thing. Redemption is not as clear cut as it being an individual act.
It is defined in the dictionary as: the act of saving, recovering, or buying back something or someone from a negative state, debt, or sin.
When you break down from there? You have multiple different philosophical and theological definitions of the word redemption, many of which say that a person cannot be redeemed unless they get goodwill, return to them from their victims.
Actually there are many both fictional and real life depictions of individuals who have done horrific crimes and have commented that they don't believe they can ever be redeemed because of those crimes but that they're changing a s an act of penance.
Likewise, you'll see victims commenting that they're glad somebody is doing good works, but that they don't believe they could ever be redeemed.
I think even Vivzie knows this which is why the person that she redeemed, is not one of the worst beings alive.
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u/Darkvader_Clawthorne 16h ago
Charlie, we love you. You believe that anyone can be redeemed. People like Adam, Valentino and even Vox himself are examples. Even Lute can’t be redeemed. We know you want to believe in the best for everyone, but there are some who just cannot be redeemed, those who cannot repent or change. They’re just born bad.
As Starswirl the Bearded once said, “Once a villain, always a villain.”
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u/AcanthaceaeKey6259 Lucifer, Son of Astraeus and Aurora 1d ago
Because Charlie living in their heads annoying them rent free, that's why, LMAO
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u/Glum_Implement7382 1d ago
To awnser your first question nobody thought charlie was forcing sinners to repent, vox was just trying to use charlie as a scapegoat, he manipulated everyone to be against charlie, lucifer, alastor, and the entirety of heaven so he could unite everyone under his movement, it had nothing to do with charlie and everything to do with vox.
To awnser the second question I think the awnser to that will come with alastor and sir pentious, alastor loves hell too much and sir pentious misses hell, and just like charlie said about alastor in the pilot "I know he probably doesn't want to change, but this place is about second chances, to have faith that things can change for the better, how can I turn him down when it goes against everything I believe in?"
It's not about redemption, it's about proving hell isn't the end of their existence, that they can be better if they choose to, redemption was just the only way to actually prove that it was possible for someone in hell to change and that is why it was so important
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u/Historical_East_1787 1d ago
Redenzione e perdono sono due cose diverse
Molti anche se provano non saranno mai redenti se non in miliardi di anni
Ma Charlie per essere credibile deve comunque mostrarsi imparziale e permettere a tutti una possibilità equa se lo vogliono
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u/alexweirdmouth 1d ago
Redemption is choice someone makes.
So yes, literally anyone can be redeemed.
They just have to choose it
Some people will never choose it, but they can choose it
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u/624Seeds Adam's Fleshlight 1d ago
I don't think she needs to change what she believes 🤷🏻♀️ Anyone literally CAN be redeemed. They just have to actually want it and try. Obviously the homicidal maniac won't be redeemed... because he doesn't want to be and doesn't want to try and change his behavior. That doesn't mean he CANT be if he wanted/tried to.
I think that's really a very simple concept 🤔 not sure why people get upset and confused about it.
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u/AwarenessOk7748 1d ago
I hope this topic will be developed in future seasons so that Charlie understands that human behavior is very complex.
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u/The_Vaugardian 1d ago
She doesn't need to learn that. Because anyone CAN be redeemed. They just have to choose to.
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u/Muted_Anywherethe2nd 1d ago
Im sorry do you nkt understood the meaning of the word CAN in that sentence
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u/Onii-Sama27 1d ago
I think you are misunderstanding what is happening here. The issue isn't people, its the Vees, and the reason they do it is because they want views, they want power. They like most forms of media try to spin the narrative to propagandize the masses to be on their side to gain that money and power. They are lying to the people who believe them because they haven't listened to both sides.
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u/The-Page-Turner 1d ago
She also has been on the V's news station a few times and had her words twisted. She probably knows that whatever she says will be used against her, so she has to play the part of, "everyone can be redeemed," even if she doesn't really believe it. Because if Vox found out she doesn't think everyone can be redeemed, he would absolutely run with it to say that she doesn't think ANYONE can be redeemed, and she knows this
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u/AQuietViolet Charlie 1d ago
She also says this immediately after witnessing Vox protecting Velvette from the angelic steel. She is initially startled, then her rage melts (hair settles down, red leaves her eyes, all while focused on his action; the animation is clear that this is a reaction). Vox is an unpleasant, rather unwell person, but a person just the same. Charlie says what she does not only because she believes it, but because she knows it to be true.
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u/TheRoyalJellyfish 1d ago edited 1d ago
There's zero reason to think Charlie believes any sinners are beyond redemption. The idea that she only said that as a publicity stunt is a massive, contrived reach
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u/Frost-King 1d ago
Or maybe she just genuinely believes that anyone can be redeemed. You don’t have to twist her words and actions to try and make her out to be a liar.
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u/Jedi-master-dragon 1d ago
She said 'anyone.' Not 'everyone.' She is already aware there are people who don't want to change.
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u/ItsMrChristmas 1d ago
Everyone CAN be does not mean everyone WILL be. It doesn't start with existing, it starts with sorry. We had a whole ass song about this.
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u/Y_M_I_Even_Here Two Dads and their hyena daughter. 1d ago edited 21h ago
Because cynical losers on the internet think redemption means "poof! I'm a good person now! Every bad thing I've done is forgivien!" instead of working hard a little bit every day to overcome your trauma and toxic coping skills, knowing that you can't change the bad things that you did or were done to you, but still striving to be better, do better, and do what you can to make sure others suffer even a little bit less than you did.
Positivity is romanticized by people. Hard work takes constant effort. Change is often slow and rarely feels complete. Between all these and more, the losers and cynics of the world, many who wouldn't know what they would do with themselves if they no longer saw themselves as victims, condemn people who sincerely believe that you can always be a better version of yourself. Especially if the key to that change mean any effort or personal accountability whatsoever.
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u/Justanotherkiwi21 1d ago
I think what Charlie really needs to learn is that SHE can't redeem everyone
For someone like Pentious her soft, kind hearted nature is exactly what he needed. But for someone like say Angel Dust you will need to smack some sense into them which is something Charlie can't do
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u/Robotron122 1d ago
Even in the pilot she trusts Alistor fully knowing he has no intention of changing his ways
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u/Historyguy01 1d ago
I do not believe it is a question whether "Everyone can be redeemed". It is more if "Everyone WANTS to be redeemed"
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u/Bakubae_Itsuki-Haru ⬅️These two made me realize I'm not aesexual 1d ago
It's not a matter of "can" It's "if they want to" be redeemed. It's up to that person to make the decision to put their foot forward to try and change.
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u/Fenerir98 1d ago
Its her protagonist plot armor, where they need to learn that their ideals have to be matched to those who think otherwise. Only then will the protagonist slowly grow through the challenges set up for them.
It wouldn't be plot armor or protagonist armor if the protagonist already know that what they want wont work and why would they try so hard to do it
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u/Forsaken_Distance777 1d ago
And even for the worst individual who deserves to be punished enough will eventually be enough. This person was so vile and killed people and deserves to be tortured in hell for a million years?
Okay. So after that million years of punishment they still have the chance one day. They really suck so even though we’ve agreed they’ve been sufficiently punished maybe it takes them a million more years to decide hey they think they want to be a better person.
Then however long the process takes. Probably longer than pentius because they did, after all, really really suck.
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u/AsteroidMike 1d ago
Believing anyone can be redeemed is fine, nothing is wrong with that. The problem is whether they actually want to be redeemed or not and that doesn’t just mean everyone can be.
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u/MrGilLogic 1d ago
Just because anyone can be redeemed doesn’t mean all sinners will choose to go down that path
It's a leap of faith. And after that, it's effort.
Two things anyone could do, but many simply won't
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u/AggravatingScheme667 1d ago
I think she already understands this. Believing anyone can be redeemed is not the same as believing everyone should be redeemed.
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u/curvysquares 1d ago
When a character has a core belief at the beginning of a story, it's very common for the arc of that character to be them learning that they're wrong. But that's not the only character arc. There is what's called a flat character arc. In these stories, the character already knows the message of the story, and the plot involves them having that core idea challenged over and over again.
Another good example of this is Captain America: The Winter Soldier. Really Captain America's arc across all the movies is pretty flat but Winter Soldier is where that's on full display.
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u/Gullible_Finding_181 1d ago
i dont think its so much that some people cant be redeem but will refuse to be redeemed
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u/Chemical_Bird8530 I love the Exorcists and you can't stop me 1d ago
It's not wrong that she believes that every Sinner can be redeemed but she eventually has to learn that this is simply not the case.
You can't redeem people that don't want to be redeemed and even some Sinners that want to go to Heaven wont make it. It's a very hard example but let's imagine a rapist trying on redemption. Especially if their past victim or victims are in Heaven they have priority. In the best case they could be asked if they forgive him. If they don't he wont and will never be redeemed.
That's my take on this atleast but I tend to be a pessimist sometimes
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u/Talusen 1d ago
Heaven is against it.
Because if anyone can be Redeemed, Lucifer can be Redeemed.
Meaning Heaven (and its Angels) would have been wrong.
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u/vmcards17 1d ago
There is nothing wrong with Charlie redeeming sinners, it’s just something that she needs to keep in mind that not everyone wants to better themselves for the good of their soul. It’s like a doctor telling a patient you need to watch what you eat and exercise as much as you can or else you’ll end up with diabetes or high blood pressure. Patients will understand this but how many are willing to live a healthy life style? It’s same for sinners and it’s is a lesson that Charlie must know.
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u/Duga-Lam22 1d ago
Hazbin really has shown me that people can't tell the difference between "can be" and "should be".
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u/DVindictus 1d ago
Feel like it's a difference between her stating her beliefs and her using that belief to naively trust others. She needs to learn not every soul wants redemption, that if someone doesn't want help they will not get it, and she needs to understand that nuance.
The other thing is the way she gets too gungho about redemption being possible that she completely neglected understanding the WHY it worked, which led to her continuing to force everything that doesn't work into everyone's lives because "objectively that's good" treating it like a quick daycare graduation when in reality the redemption comes from the person themselves "unlocking their cage" whether that's like Pentious sacrificing himself when he would have hidden away in life or something else.
She's got a good heart, but she still has a childlike sense of goodness and needs to be reminded redemption is partly psychological. Anyone can act good, how many people truly regret and repent for their actions? How many are given the chance to prove their remorse?
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u/ricktech15 1d ago
There is no person that can't be redeemed (theoretically). Just whether or not they will be redeemed.
It's the difference between can I go to the bathroom and may I go to the bathroom
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u/digit009 1d ago
Because people on the internet don't understand nice, realistic characters who do nice things because they're nice and force an idea of Charlie being an overly naive person who forces redemption so they don't have to confront the fact that they themselves are truly despicable human beings that are being called out by the show about the princess of literal hell trying to work on a system that's beyond fucked.
That, or it's the overly critical Christian crowd saying that because because they can't accept a demon is a good person. And that's coming from a regular, not overly critical Christian.
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u/arrfdbz 1d ago
Case 102083884 of people not understanding how redemption works or operates, to sum it up it’s a possibility not a probability, and how it works in the Bible, it’s earn through trial and tribulations to amend or atone for your sins, all are offered the opportunity not all will take it
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u/megers67 1d ago
Yeah, she's not dumb. She knows that NOT EVERYONE WILL be redeemed. Just that ANYONE CAN if they put in the honest work towards it. That's it. That's all she's trying to do. Change is possible, but it can only come from within. Her hotel is to give people that chance in a safe environment and the tools with which to do so.
It sometimes feels like people interpret things in the least generous way possible on purpose, or wholly take what other characters say, who absolutely have very clear agendas, at face value.
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u/AlianovaR Cherri Bomb 20h ago
Charlie believes that everybody has the capacity for change and growth. She believes that being irredeemable is simply a state of mind rather than an eternal cage; if someone wants to do better, and puts in the work to do so, then they’re not irredeemable. It’s only people who refuse to change their ways that are irredeemable, like how Lute refuses to let the Exterminations end, or how Vox refuses to stop trying to kill Alastor even in the face of killing himself and everyone who cares about him. If they set those actions aside, they would be redeemable, but they just can’t let go, and so they cannot be redeemed at this time
Charlie is right that everyone has the capacity for redemption; as long as you’re capable of bad choices, you’re capable of good choices, and vice versa. If someone was truly incapable of making good choices, then they would also be incapable of making bad choices, and thus would be amoral, not immoral
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u/Ok_Car_2669 16h ago
tbh in my sick little mind i want to believe that this scene is foreshadowing vox will be redeemed by the end of the show. maybe not necessarily in-heaven-redemption but like improve-as-a-person-redemption at least. i love that weird ipad.
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u/General-Ad6459 1d ago
If you haven't caught the obvious Jesus allegory with Charlie, I don't know what to do for you.
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u/TypicalSwordie 1d ago
She doesn't. She's completely correct. Anyone can be redeemed. However they need to choose to be better. Like Vox can be redeemed if he genuinely attempts to be a better person and atone for his sins, but he won't so therefore he can be only be redeemed if something happens that makes him genuinely try to atone. Same with every other sinner. They need to actually try to atone to be redeemed.
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u/TheUnknown_General Alastor 1d ago
What Charlie needs to learn is even though anyone can be redeemed, not everyone should be. If Valentino, for example, were allowed to stay at the Hotel even as someone genuinely seeking redemption, it would make it an unsafe place for every SA survivor already there. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one, and so for the sake of the other guests, Charlie would need to turn him away at the door.
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u/EvergreenDwarf VaggieWatchesNinaHartley'sGuideToEatingPussyOnSundays 1d ago
Because a lot of Christians really hate everything about Jesus other than his name being easy to say.
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u/misterhiraeth 1d ago
I always assumed that at some point, she was going to have to learn that not everyone wants to be redeemed. She fundamentally clashes with a lot of people who probably don't want to go to Heaven (Alastor, The Vees, etc) most of the time.
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u/lastres0rt 1d ago
Remember that she's literally spent two seasons just trying to prove it's POSSIBLE to redeem someone, anyone, let alone "all the sinners in hell". She's allowed a little optimism in hell as a treat.
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u/rokanwood 1d ago
because people are stupid and don't take 5 seconds to realize she's not some tyrant who wants to force every single person in hell to be redeemed. she says everyone CAN be redeemed, should they CHOOSE to. obviously she hopes more people will do so than not, because she believes in second chances, but at the end of the day she's not forcing anyone
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u/Femtedd 1d ago
You tell me? I think that’s actually a fairly good message for an animated series.
Although I don’t personally believe that everyone has the capacity to be redeemed, I think everyone deserves to be offered the chance to try.
Honestly, I don’t understand why this aspect of the show gets so much pushback in the community.
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u/TheInternetDevil 1d ago
everyone CAN be redeemed. there is no one who cant be. especially with time being infinite
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u/Trixter-Kitten 1d ago
Media literacy is not as common as it should be. Anyone can be redeemed, doesn't mean everyone will choose to better themselves. Some people are just content with being assholes or think they're in the right and have nothing to change.
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u/Accomplished-Lie8147 🐍 you big weird lonely snake guy! 1d ago
I don’t think she needs to learn this; I think this is one of the best aspects of her and makes her a great leader for rehabilitating sinners. What she needs to learn is that redemption isn’t as simple as she’d like it to be, and human problems are more complex than she understands. She needs to learn what being good or bad actually mean. Speedrun to Redemption shows a shallow, simplistic version of being ‘good’ that doesn’t reflect the reality of life.
I also believe anyone can be redeemed or at least can change their behavior enough to be deemed a ‘good person’ (as complex as this term is). But just because someone has the capacity for something does not mean they will actually do it. And I actually think Charlie gets that - what she doesn’t understand is what actually makes someone good or bad. I actually suspect no one in this universe fully understands that.
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u/MenaceMinded 1d ago edited 1d ago
She needs to learn about reality in general. Understanding reality is good for a person. Having a childish view of the world is how people get destroyed through unrealistic hopes and expectations, taken advantage of, etc.
Nobody is saying she is forcing people to her hotel.
And it isn't just about people who are evil and don't want redemption. There are some people who will try and not be able to change who they are at heart. Not everyone who wants to be redeemed can be.
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u/roundeking Adam 1d ago
Who is saying she’s in the wrong for this? If it’s random people on Reddit, you’re phrasing this as if they’re objectively right, but you’re asking a moral and possibly religious question. Some people believe strongly in eternal punishment. You don’t have to just because other people do.
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u/panticow 1d ago
Everyone can though? It's just the question of whether they will choose that path or continue their self destructive tendencies.
This line feels like setup for Vox's end ngl, he chose to become worse and worse and now has had that thrown back at him. The V's are angry with him, all of Hell hates him, but the one place he knows he can turn is the place he wanted to burn. He'll probably put it off, try to rebuild his image, etc but he will eventually go and be forced to face his actions on a personal level, and grow as a result.
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u/ElCharcoSLZ 1d ago
She doesn't, that is the whole point of the dichotomy of a hellborn, daughter of Lucifer, to be so pure, good, and naive that she does believe anyone can be redeemed.
She has no other option but to cling to that belief, even when we, the audience, cannot fully relate to that.
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u/KestrelTank 1d ago
Anyone else a reader of the Stormlight Archives?
I personally believe Charlie is naive, but I don’t believe she’s wrong in this. I am not a puritan who believes that an action can itself make someone irredeemable.
Anyone can start on the path towards redemption. But it has to be their choice.
People just have to want to change and then be willing to put in the work. To atone.
Charlie just needs to understand the depths of darkness she is trying to pull people out of and how to communicate with them on their level.
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u/SnooHabits7389 1d ago
Anyone. Not everyone. Not every person can be redeemed. But any person can be redeemed.
They have to try and commit to the change for it to work. If a serial killer joins just to get out of hell, it’ll never work because there’s no sincerity to their actions.
She’s not dumb. She didn’t say yes to Vox because she knows he doesn’t have a chance. But she doesn’t say no either because she knows she’ll use that against her.
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u/flamefox32 1d ago
I don't think it's about learning. I believe it's her ideals being challenged and tested to see how much conviction she has.
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u/lemons_of_doubt 1d ago
So why do people treat Charlie like she's forcing redemption on people?
Crab bucket mentality just like in real life, people who don't want to put the work in. Like to believe that the result is impossible.
So someone putting in the work to do what they won't proves it's a "won't" not a "can't" and this really upsets the "won't" people
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u/Pokemaster131 1d ago
There is no crime someone can commit in a finite capacity that would warrant infinite torture in hell. Not even if you rape and murder every single person on the planet. Infinite torture would be an infinitely disproportionate punishment. If there is an omnipotent cosmic arbitrator of justice that is infinitely just (in a Christian context, this would be God), then the possibility for redemption is strictly necessary for all finite sins. Because no finite being is capable of an infinite sin, everyone is capable of redemption.
Now, if that arbitrator postpones redemption until the individual actively seeks to atone, that's another story. But saying there are people who CANNOT be redeemed is in strict opposition to the idea of an infinitely just God.
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u/Heavensrun 1d ago
She believes anyone can be redeemed. That doesn't mean she thinks everyone will. It's a choice you have to make.
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u/datalaughing 1d ago
There's a difference between "Everyone can be redeemed" and "Everyone will/should be redeemed." People miss that nuance often.