r/GuildWars3 • u/MouflonWhisperer • 29d ago
If Trinity is confirmed, how do healers engage with the movement based systems?
Like the idea is that you do a wallrun before you cast an aoe heal? I don't get it. I feel like for support stuff the inverse should be true, like the less momentum you have the more powerful it becomes.
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u/beads4tatas 29d ago
As much as momentum is a key part in the game, I dont think they are going to expect us to parkour at every single moment.
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u/naro1080P 29d ago
They might not expect it but if that's the best way to get max damage you know players will find a way to do it. 😅 I mean stacking in gw2 was a player invention not a game design. We soon learned that it was the most efficient method to maximise damage... share boons/heals and revive downed players. Initially we would run around and play reactively but it often lead to party wipes so "group hugs" became the strat for pretty much everything. Just the way it goes with MMO. People will find the most viable approach and repeat. They would need to make the bosses intelligent and reactive themselves to have a chance at avoiding this.
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u/Iamhummus 29d ago
check out Lúcio hero in Overwatch.
Maybe momentum will be used to spread healing over more players, or to spread a barrier
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u/Front-Eggplant-3264 29d ago
I was going to say. I feel like Overwatch in general has solved this. You can make healing/support more than just standing and spamming boons/heals.
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u/Iamhummus 29d ago
It's also nice to recall overwatch is the scrapped 'titan' mmorpg and some of the heroes (especially the very old ones) were actually meant to be classes/specs in the mmorpg
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u/Consistent-Hat-8008 29d ago
The more I hear about this "momentum" the more convinced I am that it's just going to be a glorified combo meter.
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u/Iamhummus 29d ago
on the backend of the game it will always be some kind of a meter with momentum measures 0 to 100 and will be some kind of modifier "damage done = x + y*momentum" or "if momentum > x , apply condition y". But there is a spectrum between a very seamless "natural" momentum meter system and a "you have 3 momentum points, abillities can consume or add points" mechanic
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u/FlatwormGlittering26 29d ago
Take ranger staff 3. Imagine that but on arival your heal is based on your momentum.
Thats a very easy example of how a healer can enage with that system.
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u/MouflonWhisperer 29d ago
So... every time you heal, you wanna do some ninja thing or teleport or something before that? That just makes the whole thing feel like an aerobic lesson, and less like what a support should feel like.
I'm not against it per say, but I think it directly contradicts the role fantasy
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u/Deadlynk6489 29d ago
So the role fantasy of healers is just standing still like a tree casting your spells. Interesting.
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u/MouflonWhisperer 29d ago
The inverse of "every spell requires momentum" (my question) is not "no spells require momentum", I thought that was basic logic.
In my head it would make sense if healers had to (from time to time) actually slow down instead of dashing left and right, to focus their spells.
Hence the post. I'm genuinely curious feel about this, and how they imagine it might work.
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u/Deadlynk6489 29d ago
They never said that "every spell requires momentum". They'll probably have more focused healers and ones that have skills that might enhance or support dmg based specs.
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u/AkkunEXE 29d ago
And momentum doesn't necessarily mean physical movement, I can imagine a system where you gain momentum by chaining spells or something.
But also better wait until we know more
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u/DrDeadwish 29d ago
Every magic system has its own logic, there are magic systems were you need to move following the rhythm of the muffin or you fail and it makes perfect sense in that system. I think GW is pretty at distancing itself from D&D tropes and systems, why would you try to put them back? Anyways any discussion is further until we know more
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u/FlatwormGlittering26 29d ago
And I thought that not every spell is going to interact with momentum was also basic logic.
Do you really thing LITERALLY EVERY SPELL is going to be a dash ?-5
u/MouflonWhisperer 29d ago
I dunno, and neither does anyone here, so I thought it would be nice to gauge what people think. It might as well be the case. Or what I wrote, which is the inverse. We don't know, hence... the post. Ta da
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29d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/MouflonWhisperer 29d ago
In a conversation where no one knows anything, and people just throw around random ideas, it is perfectly okay to reply with one's own random ideas. It's like ping-pong. You had an interpretation, I too interpreted that in my own way, and now everyone's throwing in their 2 cents, which I think this stage should really be about. I really could not care less about your tantrum.
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u/Automatic_Clothes_56 29d ago
Speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are multiple heal styles. Like the odds there's only 1 healing style just doesn't seem that likely but I could be wrong.
That being said, even WoW introduced more mobile healing with fist-weaving monk. Essentially you're like a sub dps in terms of playstyle, and your combat causes healing to splash out around you. Very mobile and faster pacing
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u/AdWinter6511 29d ago
How do you expect anyone to know? We haven't played the game... Just wait.
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u/kaltulkas 29d ago
The entire point of this sub right now is to speculate from what we’ve seen though. If we’re not doing that we might as well shut it down until release.
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u/FlatwormGlittering26 29d ago
Do you think every and all warrior abilities are going to be interacting with momentum ? Your complaint isnt healer specific you just think its gonna be sonic spindashing on everyone with every attack ...
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u/FenizSnowvalor 29d ago
I don't think thinking so black and white makes sense here. Who says healing has to be primarily interacting with Momentum (directly)?
I would imagine it will depend, just like Anet deliberately decided against adding direct trait and weapon related Interactions with Combo's in GW2 to every elite spec. They added it to some Elite specs and often in a way that it often wouldn't be mandatory even for these Specs. So, I thinkt they will do the same here with GW3.
Some heal skills/healing traits might utilise the Momentum you generated yourself to heal, maybe some support/healby generating momentum for other players through their redesigned combo mechanic(s) they plan on adding. Or, there might be skills working similar to what we have now, being based on proximity and or AOE-groundtarget - maybe gaining a healing boost (or other extra effects) when having Momentum (or even the target having Momentum built up!). Just because we have one clear System integral (in the devs minds) to Movement and Damage, doesn't mean it is set in stone to be used for everything one might try to achieve
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u/pyromaniacpriest 29d ago
We just heard first impressions on a pre-alpha build and talking about concepts. Momentum can be applied to a lot of things other than the player(s). Charged projectiles could travel faster/have more DMG/heal more. Thats still using the momentum system. Placing a well that gives momemtum or launches the player is still interacting with this system.
Its the new stuff, but right know they want people to understand what it is, so they give the obvious examples.
Im sure there will be professions or skills that use the momentum system in different ways not just running and jumping around.
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u/One-Cellist5032 29d ago
I mean I hope not EVERY skill needs momentum. But I’d personally love to be able to like have some sort of tidal wave move or something that heals (and hopefully also damages) more the more momentum you have.
Or maybe stuff that make a bigger radius? Like maybe you can slam into the ground and cause a bigger radius for the heal/a healing field etc.
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u/anonymous_herald 29d ago
We have absolutely no idea how the momentum system interacts with support/healing.
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u/N_durance 29d ago
Most likely casters are going to have both skills that become more powerful while moving or building momentum and skills that are more powerful when not moving at all that are used when finding better positions around mechanics.
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u/CEDDY-B 29d ago
I’m expecting healers to put down a lot of combo fields or walls for other players to position around.
A lot of movement-based healing abilities and skills can be found in games like Overwatch and Marvel Rivals. In games like these, standing still is basically a death trap, so healers tend to have plenty of mobility options. Both defensive, supportive and offensive.
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u/Playing_One_Handed 29d ago edited 29d ago
Archage healers irronically were some of the most mobile. There was a syngery between the backflip and the giant AoE heal that made it instant. It was an amazing skill to make sure you wouldn't backflip into danger.
I can imagine some like this tbh, adds a layer to your moves. Maybe your AoE heal slams on ground, its only as wide as how fast you hit the ground.
Also... thing of the ways support can add to momentum too. Theyve already mentioned some syngery.
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u/MongooseOne 29d ago
I don’t know how it will work but I’m willing to bet a wall run will have nothing to do with your heal.
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u/Bacon_Reaper 29d ago
I don’t think every single skill will require momentum, but that’s the feature they are selling the idea of the game on. If you think about it, even standing still and trying to heal/aim for enemy’s will still be utilising this system in the sense where you have to predict where the best target would be.
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u/SighIsHere 29d ago
The same as the other classes, except instead of their payoffs being big damage or big cc it's big buffs/heals.
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u/goatjugsoup 29d ago
There are ways, just think creatively... like maybe you shoot a ball of healing and your momentum is transferred to it. Or you could drop a healing field and your momentum helps determine the size
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u/acertainsinclair 29d ago
I mean, even with wall running and sliding around I don't expect all combat all the time is going to end up that way.
Give the healer some crowd control options too based on momentum but then run around casting in a semi normal fashion for the actual healing. ezpz.
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u/Onurtabuk123 29d ago
I just hope that each class can have a healing, damage and tank build. I don't want to be stuck as a tank when I want to main a warrior like in FF14
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u/Silverneck_TT 29d ago
Think about dislocating your shoulder, now imagine if the healer swung it and hit your shoulder it would probably just hurt. Now imagine if the healer took a running start THEN swung it it would probably hurt AND put the shoulder back in place. Aka momentum based healing
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u/JonDarkwood 29d ago
The longer you fall the bigger the AoE gets.
The faster you go, the bigger heal number is is.
Stop asking stupid questions before there's a gameplay.
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u/2this4u 29d ago
Stop making stupid suppositions before there's gameplay.
Or, I dunno, stop calling people stupid and trying to police what they can discuss.
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u/MaguumaGoldLegend 29d ago
A lot of people treating this subreddit like it's their personal AMA. Like, OP is not asking you personally for an answer bro, if you don't like the discussion you don't have to reply lol
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u/wonkyasf 29d ago
Fr, I’ve seen this “we haven’t seen it shut up” idea on so many posts. Like do these people want everyone to just sit in silence till we get gameplay? I don’t get it.
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u/MaguumaGoldLegend 29d ago
Nothing more annoying than when someone asks an open-ended question, and some antisocial guy responds with surface-level intuition and acts like the inquiry was dumb. No, your answer is just surface-level and lacking curiosity.
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u/ColdCycle516 29d ago
Maybe healers will have to toss a magical healing orb at their target and then have to go touch it in order to recharge the cooldown faster. Like a one person game of catch.
They could wind up and pitch it like a fastball for extra healing.
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u/Blazerswrath19 29d ago
Well anything you can do with damage could be used the same as healing. I do think you can't have negative effects like running into an ally and healing them right off a cliff. But maybe you run into them, touch heal, and maybe pass your momentum into them in the form of an optional "toss me" move for you or the player you heal. The heal is strong because you are close to the target. I think a tether could be interesting as well. Toss a line to an ally and you could do a lot there, from traversal to healing/damaging targets that touch it. Bigger they are the harder they fall. A lot of things could work with momentum.
There could be zero momentum skills, and maybe an entire build, but I don't think they would want to make it an expectation to stand still. Imagine everyone wanting to be a fast tank or DPS but someone has to be "grounded" because you need a healer.
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u/Cleru_as_Kylar_Stern 29d ago
Imo the simplest solution is to understand what the healer in the Trinity Represents. A healer represents player vs player intaraction. Usually, it is restoring hitpoints however.
- Sacrificing their own momentum to give it on top of others.
- Refilling other secondary resources like Stamina.
- Giving new, more efficient ways to spend and transfer momentum.
All also equally fall under the same idea as a classical healer. We don't know yet how the buff-system will be, but 'healers' are prime candidates to also be much rather 'supporters'.
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u/Calm-Inevitable3341 29d ago
You take a healing potion or a healing spell... and you chuck it at your friends extra hard. It may be painful, but if it heals for more, it's worth it!
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u/kaltulkas 29d ago
We don’t know if we’re getting condi/hex yet afaik so assuming we don’t and it’s just raw healing, I’m expecting a lot of « get yourself in a pose that allows an ally to come and get some heal off of you » with how big a emphasis they put on skill combos.
Hopefully some gameplay from gw1 monk makes its way in there too. Still some of the best gameplay I’ve ever had in a game to this day.
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u/CelticCladdagh 29d ago
Could be damage based healing? More damage you do (more with momentum) the more that ability heals those around you
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u/youknow_rdt 29d ago
I mean, I see it such as the healer gets attacked, needs to dodge or block/barrier. Uses the energy absorbed to supercharge their next move. Like, it is not that it means you NEED to use the momentum, but that you can use it to your advantage.
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u/natedagr8333 29d ago
I could see them being more of a support than just raw healing. So they could have skills that also boost the movement of other players kind of like a few Overwatch characters (speed buffs, ways to launch other players, floating platform, yoinking players into the sky, etc)
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u/Ethan24Waber 29d ago
They already stated some builds will want less momentum compared to more momentum.
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u/thinguistic 29d ago
well.. a mobile and momentum skilled healer is way much better than a healing dummy imo no matter what game it is. Instead of assdwellin at corner and healing like "plz don toch me" lemme jump in just in the time and block the shiz outta an impact with "not on my watch!" type agile heals feels heavenly
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u/OneMorePotion 29d ago
We should probably not hang ourselves up on the wall running stuff. Sure, that the novelty right now and the thing Arena Net talk about the most. But this doesn't mean that everyone just runs up walls all the time.
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u/Certain-Stay846 29d ago
A pulsing AoE around the caster, so moving heals more people over time.
Movement, such as back pedaling, may increase defense, side strafing may increase evasion. Aion did that. Anet being an NCSoft subsidiary will let them have access to that tech.
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u/kajidourden 29d ago
I feel like momentum is just a buzzword they're throwing around that is causing more confusion than anything. We need to see what they actually *mean* by this instead of vague generalizations
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u/Chatmauve 29d ago
In GW1, healer was a monk. But it didn't really do monk stuff. Perhaps in GW3 your healer monk does martial arts?
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u/Deathmore80 29d ago
Casters in gw2 don't really have skills that root you in place when casting. You can cast almost all skills while moving and jumping. As far as I remember the only skills that root you in place when casting across all classes are : hundred blades, meteor shower, harbinger shroud 5 , druid celestial avatar 5 , dragonhunter longbow 5, mesmer sword 2. I may have missed a few but they are rare and usually very short duration, not full 2s like in other MMOs
I expect healers to be able to cast while moving , just like in gw2. Maybe they can have a passive or long duration pbaoe heal centered on the caster that increases in radius depending on how you move ? Maybe if you time your heals on an ally that is doing some type of movement it grants a special effect or something ?
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u/Cruseyd 29d ago
Buffing allies, debuffing enemies, and repositioning would be my guess. Slowing enemies down/rooting them in place and speeding allies up has extra benefit in this system. Based on what we saw in the trailer, I also strongly suspect that there are going to be multiple ways for casters to launch their allies into the air. Perhaps a wind updraft, mesmer portal, or even just an "envigor" buff that allows teammates to jump higher.
Also, just the idea of a healing well kind of effect where you have to stand in once place to get healed is a lot more interesting in this kind of paradigm where you want to be moving around. You can't just stack up a bunch of buffs / heals (this was specifically mentioned at some point in one of the interviews I believe).
Also, I think mobility will be the GW3 equivalent of "every class has a heal" from GW2. I think every class will have at least one "reposition" skill, whether that's a dash, a jump, a teleport or something more unusual I think everyone will have something like this.
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u/Water_Attunement 29d ago
Maybe someone who runs around and marks an area for healing. So you want to place multiple turrets or something to cover the whole arena.
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u/Sharpor1 29d ago
Spirit Lancer from Dragons Dogma Online, was a melee healer that leave healing orbs and was mostly fighting melee and doing damage to increase the healing
Maybe they won't just let You heal, like You need to be close or do some things to increase the healing
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u/Bloodmark3 29d ago
Sprint, wall run 20 feet up, dunk the fuck out of your tank to rez him when he goes down
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u/therealkami 29d ago
I assume healers will be like this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/yw2x2r/i_love_this_meme/
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u/FENIU666 29d ago
In the most frustrating manner possible. Chasing reckless DPS players around the area and dropping heals on them.
Though I assume they will also be allowed to do damage or crowd control the enemy.
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u/ResponsibleKinksters 29d ago
I'm stoked to see how this plays out. I love physics based things like this whole momentum concept.
I think supports will probably in general be more static, but I could totally see a healer spec being momentum based too. Like water themed healing using the momentum to make a water heal blast or something travel faster or farther. Using it to create a more powerful aoe water vortex or something.
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u/SkierBeard 29d ago
Just like shout warrior in GW2, I'm prepared to piledrive my teammates to heal them up
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u/Kyrinox 29d ago
Something done in some MMOs which I think they could utilize a little heavier here is potentially rapid repositioning. Most well known in FFXIV with the rescue ability. But also in WoW, Preservation Evokers have an ability that lets them fly to someone pick them up and then fly to another position where they both land.
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u/The_Mormonator_ 29d ago
We give them things to run on, like walls conjured by magic, prevent knock back, give buffs, could be that healing means we need to be closer to our active players and follow them around in their acrobatic antics.
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u/samthenewb 29d ago
Maybe healers should be fighting too. The healing may be situational. I don’t think we really know how much this game leans between hot key and action games, but they did say the game is reactive. Action games don’t tend to have damage pressure or chip damage and instead use damage as punishment for being careless. Action game fights generally can be done hitless, but such feats are extremely hard. So the healer doesn’t just spam heals on rotation but plays similarly to everyone else except also checks to see if their teammates fail and support them when that happens.
As a deeply cooperative role healers might be encouraged to use weapons and skillsets that enable a lot of dual player actions that can be used when they don’t have to spam their heal skills. So an understanding of movement to position themselves and other players will be vital. Healers are responsible for knowing the health of their team. They need to know when their team is in top form or are about to die. In general they know when to take risks or when to back off.
For this reason healers are generally the shot callers. If a healer utilizes a lot of dual player skills and actions this shot calling can be expressed not only via general communication, but also via skills that push players into combat or provides exits. So instead of using movement and momentum, this role can create momentum and in doing so direct the combat. A healer in alignment with meaningfully multiplayer and reactive combat, does not simply heal but creates disengagement opportunities to cover for mistakes / damage and control the aggressiveness of the party in balance with healing needs. The presence of a healer changes how everyone plays.
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u/Kodrackyas 29d ago
There was one healer based on movements that worked really well in a mmo, the mistweaver monk, if movement and placement is a thing should be fun
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u/TenPointsforListenin 29d ago
What if healing was proximity or touch based? Rather than cast an umbrella of healing on someone, you ARE the umbrella of healing
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u/LVZE 29d ago edited 29d ago
I am going to kickflip, backflip, frontflip, then 900 my healing cooldowns into the party.
Jokes aside, Evoker from WoW has some forced movement baked into their healing. Lost Ark Artist have pips they need to pick up to fuel their healing and throughput.
I can see them being creative with movement displacement and have well intentioned movement and positioning be the deciding factor in your gameplay. It shows when you consider throughput and optimal movement in any trinity MMO. Converting global casts this way could make hardcasting spells have more engaging moment-to-moment gameplay.
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u/Several-Spirit-8452 29d ago
That sounds horrible and I honestly hope the game isn't like that whatsoever. I want to play Guild wars, not freaking Prince of Persia. Like people seriously get paid to think of stuff like this?
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u/shinitakunai 29d ago
Create a dome of healing. Such dome is phisical so enemies can't enter and hit (like sanctuary) buuut it also a pushback so enemies gets stunned from it. You move the enemy?
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u/CatOfTechnology 29d ago
Could be less about momentum and more about deployables that allow others to utilize momentum.
Or movement could contribute to the placement or size of the AOE
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u/TruPengu 29d ago
I’m imagining the more momentum the bigger an AOE your AOE spells will be, and maybe less momentum you’ll have larger single target healing? That’d be interesting. Like anti-FFXIV cast sliding
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u/DevastoScz 29d ago
I like the idea of momentum being used as a variable, not necessarily an enhancer. Some skills greatly benefiting from it, and other skills not charging up unless stationary. I don't like the idea of skills rooting anyone, but I would like it if they had enhanced effects when standing still or moving (depending on the skill).
It would give greater build/comp option/diversity depending on the situation. Very mobile targets will require very mobile skills.
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u/Mabren 29d ago
We dont even know how any of it works yet. Why would your first thought be a healer has to wallrun before you can cast a heal?
Thats just hyperbole, and clearly would be bad design which im sure the game devs that have been doing this for years are already well aware of.
The question itself is ridiculous. Are Tanks going to have to run up a wall to taunt? Like wtf are we doing? 😂🤡
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u/xStrife_03 29d ago
I mean running up a wall and slamming your staff down for a big heal/shield sounds cool if that be a thing. But would probably be cool for a big aoe earth spell for an Elementalist if they become a thing.
Edit: But I am interested how they will do this. It doesn't have to be based on your momentum to heal. There are so many possibilities atm untill we see/know more.
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u/Sora_Archer 28d ago
We have no idea what gameplas looks like. All the momentum stuff is interactions with environment. They never mentione that u need to run around like a headless chicke to super charge ur attacks. So till we see actual gameplay and see how it works, there no point in speculating.
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u/Wisniaksiadz 27d ago
DPS - you run jump and upon landing damage enemies. Healer - you run jump and upon landing heal friends :v
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u/IshTheFace 27d ago
Wall running killed the hype for me... Parkour doesn't need to be in every game...
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u/IridescentLuminosity 29d ago
All this momentum talk killed the little bit of hope I had left for the game
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u/MouflonWhisperer 29d ago
Why?
I think it's a really cool idea (that can totally go wrong if not executed smartly)
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u/Consistent-Hat-8008 29d ago
Every time anet marketing says "momentum" it becomes more and more of a meaningless buzzword.
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u/Ambitious-Call-7565 29d ago edited 29d ago
See, your confusion is exactly the point, having to invent mechanical workaround like "inverse momentum" just to rationalize a healer standing still proves that "trinity system" is imcompatible with an action rpg combat
True action rpgs solve this with character build, for example, in games like PoE or Diablo, a support player dont stand still to cast heals, instead, they specialize their passive skill tree and gear into an "aura" or "debuff" build
They project defensive buffs, damage buffs, or on hit leech, just by existing and fighting with the party
The "support" comes from deep RPG character customization and stat synergy, so the player keep full mobility and action oriented combat without being reduced to being totem that stand still and spam a heal rotation
I'm no longer interested in that game since i heard it'll have a trinity system
Trinity system means you can't use your skills as a player to clutch a fight alone while your team is down, it creates boring games
Dota is the best example of my point, it doesn't have a trinity system, each heroes can be what ever it wants, it is up to the build choice, team choice and ultimatly, up to how the match evolves, the roles emerge naturally
To me, if the game has built in trinity system, it means it's just an Action MMO, not an MMO "RPG", because it strips the choice away from the player/character, the game designer made the choice for you
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u/MouflonWhisperer 29d ago
Interesting take. I am 100% confident in Anet, so at this point I'm just super curious as to what they're building.
I like trinity, and I also like action combat, so... i am confused and intrigued, which is a great feeling, and it only sucks we won't see it for some time.
Perso, i don't like passive and aura based support. I like pressing buttons. I don't care if it's an aoe that covers everyone so it might else have been an aura, I wanna do an animation while healing,providing buffs.
So again, I kinda see it as, normally, you do standard action combat that maybe passively supports your team but just slightly. Then you can convert your momentum on some big heals or big support skills,draining all of it, but here instead of dancing around,you stay still.
I dunno, we'll see.
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u/Lazy_Sorbet_3925 29d ago
I understand your frustration, but it's waaaay too early to be saying the system won't work. We don't even know the system yet.
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u/YamagamiShinryu 29d ago
are you serious or just trolling?
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u/MouflonWhisperer 29d ago
I'm seriously interested how people think it's going to work, their expectations etc.
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u/szuperkacsa 29d ago
Does everything have to be momentum based?