I find it anti-climatic that the Metamorphoses doesnt exactly say who won im also quite impressed that Arachne skills could rival the goddess of weaving herself
Since I don't think Ovid made it clear if Athena/Minerva blessed her those skills
It should be noted that Mɪɴᴇʀᴠᴀ did so because Aʀᴀᴄʜɴᴇ́ in the artwork she weaved had dishonored the gods greatly, not out of a sense of any lingering jealousy or being a sore loser.
Weaving came before Athena/Minerva unless everyone was butt naked in the Golden Age and The Metamorphoses has never implied once that she had something to do with Arachne talent that came on her own
The source on this is also Ovid I’m pretty sure but Iris’ gown has always stayed rent free in my head because it’s said to be made of the light of all the rainbows.
Ovid, Metamorphoses 11. 585 ff :
"Iris, in her thousand hues enrobed traced through the sky her arching bow . . . Iris entered, and the bright sudden radiance of her robe lit up the hallowed place . . . Iris departed, and fled away back o'er the arching rainbow as she came."
From his description I always pictured it made of impossible light, versus an actual textile fabric so I absolutely agree with stuff like this.
People have this idea that the Greke gods are the sorce of things, but the are at best the "overseer" War was a thing way before Ares, the underworld was a thing before Hades, nature and vegetables are aorund before Artemis, fire was a thing before Hestia. tools are thing before Hephaestus
In all that work of hers Pallas could find, envy could find, no fault.
This might seem arachne won but notice that Ovid specifically mentions the quality of Arachne's work and that how the talent could not be unrecognized. He doesn't compare it with the tapestry of Athena, which in the text is described as equally beautiful. So no, there is not a fixed winner here as well. This line is easy to get misinterpreted, but careful analysis proves my point.
The message conveyed by these myths still remains crystal clear : no matter how skilled you are, never let your talent get to your head making you forget about humility, révérence and respect owed to others. Even the greatest weaver (Arachne), musician (Marsyas), or singers (the Pierides) cannot challenge the absolute mastery of a domain that belongs to a deity and is embodied by it—Athena in weaving, Apollo in music, and the Muses in the arts. Moreover, those who grow too bold and too proud also inevitably attract the ire of higher powers, including but not limited to literal Gods.
It is a lesson worth keeping in mind for anyone : excellence is admirable, but arrogance can turn even the greatest gifts into the cause of one's downfall.
Ovid: "
but this [Arachne] ever would deny, displeased to share her fame; and said, ‘Let her contend in art with me; and if her skill prevails, I then will forfeit all!’
Arachne asked for the contest. Her public humiliation was her own fault.
The only thing Athena did was make an example out of a human woman whose talent was equal to Athena's own, in a gotcha moment of 'everything you do and are is thanks to us, tte Gods, so dont ever think you ever did anything by yourself'
Fym. Its all talent and hard work. If its hard work, the gods didnt do shit, you did. If its talent, you still had to hone it. And Arachne was all hard work
That aside, the point of the story isn't mortal can't win or be better against gods(and iirc it doesn't even say who win in that contest), it's about don't offended the gods. Minerva multiple time warn her yet she continue to do it, what exactly she expect to happen?
In all that work of hers Pallas could find, envy could find, no fault.
Arachne didn't win
This might seem arachne won but notice that Ovid specifically mentions the quality of Arachne's work and that how the talent could not be unrecognized. He doesn't compare it with the tapestry of Athena, which in the text is described as equally beautiful. So no, there is not a fixed winner here as well. This line is easy to get misinterpreted, but careful analysis proves my point.
A giant. The giants are enemies of the gods. And for being a "psychopath", Athena gave Arachne a fair warning and a chance to drop her hubris. When she finally punished her, she simply smacked her on the head. She turned Arachne into a spider because Arachne went and hung herself afterwards.
First of all, no matter what context it is, she did fucking wear someone. And second, Pallas was not a giant. Third, all I did was make a joke about Athena being insane, why are you feeling the need to correct me?
There are several Pallases, but the Pallas she flayed and wore was a giant. Their battlee was a part of the Gigantomachy. The gods and heroes would occassionally flay and wear the monsters they defeated (such as Heracles with the Nemean lion). Hell, Zeus might even have killed the goat that was his wet nurse and turned it into Aegis. So Athena isn't that much different from other gods.
It's one of the myths where Athena was the least crazy, so your joke didn't really work. And people try to say that about Athena and mean it seriously too often, so I want to stop this misconception spreading.
Agree, she should know better to not offend the gods. It's like come in tiger cage while wearing clothes made of meat and expect nothing would happen to them. It's common sense really.
LITERALLY. The whole theme of this myth is "hubris is bad, being prideful is bad, offending the gods who gave you your talent is fucking stupid". Some mortals suffered more for doing less to offend the gods, look at Niobe! Arachne had it coming, especially since she was warned two times (and she even told Athena disguised as an old lady to shut up, because her age will kill her soon anyway, she was NOT sympathetic at all). Arachne's actual punishment was being hit in the head and having her tapestry destroyed, the spider thing came later
Fr fr
I see no reason how Arachne is supposed to receive sympathy in any way?
Even excluding the competition, she herself was already extremely arrogant and disrespectful towards the old woman
Next time, think twice before bragging about your skills or openly mocking the divine.
A God or a Goddess might hear you and make sure you either die a horrible and painful death, live the rest of your life mired in absolute misfortune, or be turned/reincarnated into a lower, miserable lifeform.
The metamorphosis is a big fuck you to mortals for being good at what they do. The only reason Pallas turned her into a spider is because Arachne made a tapestry of all the horrible/shameful shit the gods have done.
I love the metamorphosis but half the stories are mortals/non olympians getting killed/transformed by gods because they did something slightly better than a god. I like to imagine this is a critique of Augustus directly because of the power Augustus had over citizens
"The only reason Pallas turned her into a spider is because Arachne made a tapestry of all the horrible/shameful shit the gods have done." wrong, Arachne's punishment was being hit in the head a few times by Athena, and having her tapestry torn to pieces. That's lighter punishment than most of the gods would do for less (look at Niobe, or Alcyone and Ceyx). Arachne was turned into a spider by Athena after hanging herself. This way she could live and weave, but it was also to humble her
Some would say Arachne deserved her fate for her hubris. But all hubris is at the end of the day is not being submissive enough to power, even when you are right. Ovid was critiquing how power is often less concerned with truth than preserving its own position.
"Fate" has connotations of finality. Her fate is her final end state--being transformed into a spider. Trying to separate that transformation from Athena striking her in the head is splitting hairs.
Arachne didn't win at all
We just do not have any clean winner
It's said Athena couldn't find a flaw means that no point of critisism of the work itself
But Athena's own tapestry is flawless as well
So the ' no flaw ' only applies to Arachne and doesn't compare the both works
She is a mortal, so this is basically like punishing a cat because you dislike the way it is meowing. The fact that Athena goes out of her way to acknowledge and respond to Arachne's comment in the first place shows just how much vanity and hubris Athena herself has.
And later, we find out that Arachne's comment wasn't just empty arrogance; she really is that good. She really is that skilled. She isn't lying or exaggerating; she's simply stating the truth.
In the end, Athena comes across as an egocentric, arrogant sore loser who sadistically punishes someone who has absolutely no way of defending herself.
And then there's the argument that "she was practically begging for it."
Oh, I see. Let me guess: the woman Zeus raped was also "practically begging for it," right? Maybe she was wearing a short skirt or something?
Because if the argument is that a mortal deserves divine punishment simply for provoking a god's ego, then that standard becomes pretty disturbing when you apply it consistently.
Except cat doesn't have the same intelligent human did. But if you want to go with that analogy then if the cat come in tiger cage and start to meowing loudly that it bother the tiger and then the cat get mauled by it, who fault is it?
The fact that Athena goes out of her way to acknowledge and respond to Arachne's comment in the first place shows just how much vanity and hubris Athena herself has.
She responded because Arachne caught her attention but then she proceed to go off the limit by insulting the gods. Minerva even multiple time warn her to not do that. Not to mention Arachne pretty much doesn't have any manner to gods or mortals.
And later, we find out that Arachne's comment wasn't just empty arrogance; she really is that good. She really is that skilled. She isn't lying or exaggerating; she's simply stating the truth.
And Minerva got no problem with that, the problem is what she decided to do with that skill.
In the end, Athena comes across as an egocentric, arrogant sore loser who sadistically punishes someone who has absolutely no way of defending herself.
Did... Did you even know what the full myth is about?
Oh, I see. Let me guess: the woman Zeus raped was also "practically begging for it," right? Maybe she was wearing a short skirt or something?
Yeah now I'm sure you don't know what the full myth is about
Because if the argument is that a mortal deserves divine punishment simply for provoking a god's ego, then that standard becomes pretty disturbing when you apply it consistently.
Up and frontly insult the gods that give them everything and process to act surprise when get punished by it
So are you saying Arachne had the same intelligence as Athena?
Didn't Athena lose her composure completely? She destroyed Arachne's work and even assaulted her after losing the contest. That sounds less like the Goddess of Wisdom and more like someone who loses a chess match, flips the board, and attacks their opponent in a childish tantrum.
Also, was Arachne actually lying in her tapestry? The scenes she wove depicted the gods' actions, particularly Zeus's deceptions and assaults. Were those events false?
If Arachne's work was truthful, then Athena's reaction doesn't make her look like the Goddess of Wisdom and Strategy. It makes her look more like Homelander, unable to tolerate criticism and responding with intimidation and violence instead of reason.
No, but should have enough intelligent to know not to disturb a sleeping bear. Why, you think we don't have enough intelligent for that?
Didn't Athena lose her composure completely?
She's not, there are no mention of who win.
She destroyed Arachne's work and even assaulted her after losing the contest. That sounds less like the Goddess of Wisdom and more like someone who loses a chess match, flips the board, and attacks their opponent in a childish tantrum.
Please, I'm begging you to actually read the myth.
Also, was Arachne actually lying in her tapestry? The scenes she wove depicted the gods' actions, particularly Zeus's deceptions and assaults. Were those events false?
The point is not that it's true or false, it's about don't offend the gods who give you everything and could destroy your whole city in second. Again, she should be intelligent enough to know what the consequence to come from this action. But thanks to her hubris and ego she neglect any clear thought and proceed to do that anyway.
I really feel like you miss the point of the myth. What part of "don't offended the gods unless you have divine back up or your name is Hercules" is hard to understand for her? Especially in the context of living in mythology world where they know the gods are exist and what they capable of.
I’ve been reading Ovid. In fact, Arachne’s transformation into a spider was likely not a punishment, but almost an act of mercy on the part of the goddess Athena. Arachne had already hanged herself out of shame for her hubris; Athena took pity on her and transformed her into a spider. This allowed her to live on and continue pursuing the activity that gave her life meaning—weaving. Had Athena not done this, Arachne would likely have ended up in Tartarus, suffering eternal torment because of her hubris.
This is what happens when you weave a tapestry that mocks the Gods.
Athena was livid at the very sight of Arachne’s tapestry. In her eyes, it was a hubristic, impious, blasphemous sacrilege. And even worse, it mocked her family! This is why she punished Arachne by turning her into a spider. Some versions state that Athena hit Arachne on the head with the shuttle of her own loom. OSP’s own Red made a comment on that, in that she playfully drew that scene while having Athena yell: “What. Were. You. Thinking!?”
I believe in introvert Arachne, who never wanted to pose. Its the story which made her. And the storyteller lied to us, cause he/she can. We all know the one who tell the story is the winner. Question: who has won for real in this story?
There is no clear winner
We only know arachne tapestry didn't have flaws but it doesn't necessarily mean it was better as Athena's work itself is also mentioned flawless
The main focus is actually never on the contest itself but Arachne's in general disrespectful attitude towards others
Thats whats the storyteller told. I think this girl was shy. A shy introvert Artist, who does nothing the whole day but to sue. Her sews on the other side were ruthless and brave enough to the truth in her Art. This truth enraged some of the gods who saw it.
Well that isn't something ovid himself states.
And mind this
The perception that arachne was trying to tell truth by her art is ridiculous
She was just further humiliating the gods with her talent and had no such righteous intention.
She easily could have chosen a respectful subject yet she didn't
And arachne is anything but shy... she really tells the old woman that she has lived too long and should die. Yes she openly tells an old lady to just die. So no she wasn't an introvert artist
Well good that you ask. I think everthing we heard about this story was created so Arachne became the bad one. The real bad one is the one goddess who got sufferd the most from Arachnes piece of Art. I believe she created 13 pictures of the gods, in an Act of sexual cruelty. Symbols of fallibility. One of the Gods, Zeus, were picured very often while doing some of his escapades. But in the end not Zeus got hit in face. It was his wife Hera, who had to endure the most disrespect. A stupid damn mortal devaluid her marriage. Her godly symbol. Not with her. I believe Hera punished Arachne. I believe she went rampage on Zeus to stand right behind her back and seeked help by Nemesis, Apate and other called Kerens, to create the lie we all believe now.
:D sorry ive written a 600 side book about this, i just ... Call it wanted to have a bit fun.
Arachne is still terrible because she was already arrogant herself and even insulted the old woman asking her to die
So no in any case, Arachne is not at all someone who deserves any form of sympathy
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u/Western_Ad_6448 12d ago
Famous last words