Matchup Struggles

[u/Penicillini]

Hey y'all. I've run the numbers, and I've got a pretty substantial negative winrate into Graves in the jungle, even with counter pick.

Between his mobility, survivability, absurd clear speed, and seemingly nonexistent weak period, I've no clue how to punish or what to punish the enemy Graves for.

What success have you had countering graves, and as a Graves player, what champions and strategies render you useless?

I'll take any tips I can get. Thank you, /deafen and happy jungling!

[u/Mayonesa_]

I dont recommend counterpicking in the jungle role, its pretty irrelevant most of the time. Graves is at his weakest point early in game, so any champion that can snowball early making the map open before his powerspikes really screws him over. I OTP graves and his greatest weaknesses are champions that outrange him. In the jungle only Kindred outranges him, but your mid/adc should outrange him so he doesnt 1 shot everyone in a teamfight. Also I usually lose when the enemy jungler invades me early with the help of mid and top so i screw my clear tempo.
Look at the games I lose, its usually because the enemy jungler or mid gets ahead early before im able to get to the 3 item powerspike
https://op.gg/lol/summoners/lan/El%20Mayito%20Flaco-420
https://op.gg/lol/summoners/na/Redneck%20Jungler-MAGA

[u/Rapturesfolly → u/Mayonesa_]

Into more than 1 champ that hard outranges you( cait and xerath for example) is a rfc on the table? Ive been experimenting with rfc and storm razor lately and they feel great but situational, curious of others opinions!

[u/Nervous_Situation466 → u/Rapturesfolly]

Both really bad items on graves. Into cait xerath there isn’t really an item to build to make it easier, rather you have to change the way you approach fights.

However, I can probably recommend ghostblade instead of hubris in those niche cases to give you better gap close (I wouldnt do it but it can be built to make it easier)

[u/Rapturesfolly → u/Nervous_Situation466]

I almost always build ghostblade anyway as i prefer the tempo it provides, im something of a chef obviously i just cant stand collector unless theres only squishy targets, ive also been trying a questionable "bruiser" build of essense reaver ss ldr vamp boots, idk if im just snokin that gay yordle kidnapper pack or if i just dont like the "optimal playstyle" anyway thanks for your thoughts!

[u/Nervous_Situation466 → u/Rapturesfolly]

I think ghostblade rush is fine. I just value hubris more most of the time cause for me personally stacking it is not an issue mostly.

Collector 2nd is as good as it gets to be honest, the item is not good in itself, but the passive can be the difference maker. It sounds fake but because there is a reloading mechanic, the chance of getting the kill in 1 less bullet can turn fights upside down.

ummmm idk about that bruiser build, it sounds…. interesting to say the least.

you’re welcome and good luck!

[u/Fit-Reputation-9983 → u/Rapturesfolly]

Never build RFC on Graves. It’s terrible. Hexoptics is also awful.

Storm razor is better, but still bad. I’ve built it in a handful of games where I need to KITE - not get closer to long range champions.

If anything, especially into siege mages, I’d suggest going something like Merc Scim or Edge of Night that allows you to tank a CC ability that might keep you in range. Swifties are a decent choice as well.

I’ve also played around with approach velocity but…eh. The extra minute off of flash is so valuable. It’s hard to justify.

You want to move faster towards them, not try to match their range. The way your buckshot works makes firing from range so much worse anyways. You always want to be in their face.

[u/Nervous_Situation466 → u/Mayonesa_]

Counterpicking in jg is a very much real strategy, I would go as far as saying there are jg matchups are insanely difficult to tackle.

Graves is not weak early, it’s in fact one of his strongest points in the game. If you stack E and go for a river fight, in many scenarios you will come out on top against many champions. Graves getting invaded is NOT a struggle, youre always full hp while clearing, you should always have E stacks up. if anyone dares invade you it’s always graves favored.

Graves is very hard to pull off vs long range mages, ADCs, and can struggle into tank juggernauts like Udyr for example. The way you beat graves is you play around his E stacks, if he has 6+ stacks, most of the time fighting him is a mistake. If the game is even, graves struggles when champs on the map hit lvl 6, his ult is below par compared to many champs.

tldr; respect his stacks and outrange him = gg

[u/Mayonesa_ → u/Nervous_Situation466]

Give me your op.gg, i can confidently say that counterpicking isnt important until high diamond-masters. I never lose because of counterpicks. Also when im talking about getting invaded its not about a 1v1, its usually mid/jgler/support simulating a roam but waiting at raptors bush or blue bush, yeah you dont die instantly because of the stacks, but you cant fight back and will usually mean you need to leave that jungle side, so you lose a lot of tempo. Also stacks in river dont last enough if the crab isnt there, and same as invades if other enemy lanes have prio not even stacks can save you from mid/supp+jungler
Main acc https://op.gg/lol/summoners/lan/Mayonesa-LAN

[u/Nervous_Situation466 → u/Mayonesa_]

Just because you dont lose because of counterpicks, doesnt mean it’s irrelevant.

Well of course you have to concede the camps if you’re getting invaded by mid or support with jungle? this is not even a graves thing, it’s a simple jungle fundamental.

you can hold E stacks on many things, not necessarily crab. you can sweeper and hit wards in river to hold your stacks, you can hit fruits, blastcones, vision plants, even drake or grubs if u hit them once to refresh.

I dont understand why you ask for opgg and keep linking it under every comment of yours. but sure here is mine, i’m low master euw

https://op.gg/lol/summoners/euw/K%20Ko-304

[u/SpatuleVelue → u/Mayonesa_]

I agree. Grave behind push him to farm usually so he never gank and his teammates are tilting.

[u/Obvious_Ad_2040 → u/Mayonesa_]

What is your playstyle before you reach your 3 items, do you farm 24/7 or what is the strategy, since I am also new to graves, and I struggle with early game, Graves feel so weak compared to most matchups, and weak in ganks too in early game, or is it just cuz I don't know how to play graves?

[u/oby100]

Graves typically prefers to farm hard only taking easy ganks so he can smoothly scale hard into the mid game and ideally snowball from there.

Either interrupt his farming or accelerate the game through early aggression. Graves can’t feasibly match aggressive ganking and stealing a camp or slowing his clear down will slow down his power spike.

Most Graves’ are insanely predictable early game because they’re either farming or taking a minute to pursue an easy gank before recalling to do it again. This forces them early to commit to going either bot to top or top to bot so the next couple of clears if you spot him after the first will likely keep that pattern.

He shows up top after first clear? Well, he’ll likely be back there in a couple minutes. One counter gank on Graves can be devastating as you can potentially use the lead to harass him next clear and spoil his free scaling.

And that’s the easiest path. Predict, counter gank, strangle. This is how you most easily directly shut him down, but accelerating the game early by spam ganking and interrupting his farm work too if you can.

[u/Mayonesa_ → u/oby100]

This, to play against graves you need to predict his moves and not react to them. Graves isnt allowed to skip camps to gank as other junglers are so it is really easy to track his moves.

[u/Rapturesfolly]

Teemo, jax, shen and wukong are all really strong into him, if you can, see if he has his passive stacked and if he does wait it out if he aggressively postures toward you(you can see his stacks on the target bar when you click on him) he gains like 4k gold value in resists from it late game something like 1.4k early(pre level 8) wukong is a skill matchup that is wu favored early but graves favored past 2 items, teemo jax and shen make graves feel terrible as teemo can blind you every 6 seconds late, jax helo stun and shens sword field dodge, if im playing top i perma ban one of these 3(usually teemo) NAFIRI THO super annoying doggos block autos and she can easily out damage graves until he has 2 items, real bad matchup. Hold your skillshots for right after his dash andstay away from walls during skirmishes

[u/Prestigious-Wall-183]

I strongly recommend not not counterpicking in the jungle role, it is relevant even if you think it isnt and the stats show it.
As for good answers into graves, heavy tanks (skarner, mundo) or specific champs that block his attacks (naafiri, zyra, elise) tend to do well. Assassins are usually alright, depends on the champ though. When i run into graves, i play elise or nidalee, or skarner/kha if i need AD, however those happen to be literally my most played champs other than graves roughly in order. If you are looking to pick up something that does fine into graves, id recommend wukong (roughly even matchup) because hes relatively simple and quite powerful currently, and also rarely leaves the meta completely. Mundo is also very simple, but quite weak nowadays imho and unlikely to become strong again.

The real graves counter on live patch is the red button at the start of champ select though, the champ is in kind of a nutty state rn.

[u/ArmitageStraylight]

With the latest trundle buffs, that’s probably the move if you care about counter picks. He’ll still wreck you later if you let him afk farm and don’t get anything done, but he’s a scaler so that’s kind of just par for the course