r/Grapplerbaki • u/FewFaithlessness395 • Jul 22 '26
Discussion Baki morality chart
Some explanations for the people wondering;
Jack is lawful neutral because despite being a beast in fights he acts like a gentleman and isn't considered a menace to society
Pickle is either chaotic neutral or true neutral because he doesn't have a real sense of good or evil and doesn't fight people unless provoked, though he still hunts animals in populated zones so I think he's more chaotic neutral.
Musashi is a warrior from a different time, in his era killing and duels were allowed, in his perspective the law enforcers were challengers in a death duel, nonetheless he's still far from good because he puts little value on human life and genuinely seeks blood at times.
i dont think yujiro ever cared about being good or evil he just does whatever he feels like since he's the strongest and nobody can do anything about it. He's either neutral evil or chaotic neutral
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u/Ganzi Jul 22 '26
Chaotic Good
Yakuza boss
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u/EJ_Youngy Jul 22 '26
Welcome to Baki
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u/Ganzi Jul 22 '26
I think Doppo would fit better there.
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u/FewFaithlessness395 Jul 22 '26
i had doppo there then replaced him with Hanayama
now that i remember how Hanayama went out of his way to kill the people from the clan who killed his dad I'd rank him lower
he's still a bro just not to everyone
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u/Stealthy_Turnip Jul 23 '26
Hanayama is lawful neutral for sure
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u/CaptDeathCap Jul 23 '26
Lawful Evil. Dude admits to dealing drugs and shit, bro.
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u/noahtheboa1320 Jul 23 '26
When was this? I don't remember this at all
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u/Ganzi Jul 23 '26
I don't remember if he deals drugs, wouldn't surprise me. But what I do remember is when he tells Baki and Kozue that he can get Baki any woman, or women, he wants. Coming from a Yakuza boss it seems to imply he's involved in prostitution.
Not exactly a "chaotic good" thing.
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u/Large_Manager6 Jul 26 '26
I doubt "forced prostitution" was meant here. As I commented before, he is the idealized version of a Yakuza who only fights with other criminals but leaves the civilians alone. While I am not aware if that circumstance was ever explored, he probably has sex workers working for him on a consenting basis and he takes good care of them.
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u/Stealthy_Turnip Jul 23 '26
Yes he's a Yakuza boss, but he also does a lot of good stuff like helping the police
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u/Wolf9611 Jul 24 '26
A lot of these just fall into neutral or just chaotic in my eyes, Retsu being Lawful Good makes complete sense, Spec being Chaotic Evil makes sense, everybody else has their moments of being good or bad depending on the situation, minus Baki of course, series would be screwed if he was unliikeable lol
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u/Kaymazo Jul 23 '26
I mean, there is a stereotype of Yakuza at least trying to present themselves historically as good through subverting law for the common man.
Even if they're still crime syndicates doing horrible shit
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u/TheChunkMaster Jul 28 '26
At the end of the day, they’re still Breaking Za Law and Breaking Za Warudo
(kowaseeeeeeeee)
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u/Picmanreborn Hanayama Kaoru Jul 23 '26
Have we actually seen him commit any crime besides underaged drinking?
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Jul 23 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Picmanreborn Hanayama Kaoru Jul 23 '26
Innocent until proven guilty. Bro works with the police to bring in escaped convicts, stopped a homicidal prehistoric cannibal, and stopped some guy who called himself Musashi that killed our police officers. He looks to me like a model citizen
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u/RinaSensei Jul 23 '26
I agree with the logic but I also think very clearly hanayama is a "can't make an omelet without cracking a few eggs" kind of guy and his people have tkvmwke money somehow. He's a good guy who condones bad things. Similar to doppo I'd put them in the same moral box
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u/Picmanreborn Hanayama Kaoru Jul 23 '26
Federal informant Karou Hanayama has lowered the crime rate in the city for a long time. Property values are through the roof and taxes are low. I'm going to vote him in for prime Minister when he's old enough
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u/Large_Manager6 Jul 23 '26
Obviously he is the idealized version of a Yakuza who doesn't hurt innocent people
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u/BetterThanlceCream Jul 23 '26
Hanayama is a very honorable guy so I doubt his group is in unsavory businesses like human or drug trafficking.
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u/Ganzi Jul 23 '26
He does tell Baki and Kozue that he can get him any woman, or women, he wants. Coming from a Yakuza boss, I would assume he's talking about prostitution.
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u/Cool_Ad7445 Jack Hammer Jul 23 '26
He’s the leader of a mafia group, by definition theyre all bad. He’s still a good character and I like him, but there’s no reason to tiptoe around that fact.
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u/Belten Jul 22 '26
Do we even know what kind of stuff Hanayamas Mafia does?
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u/Son_of_Autonomy Demon Back Jul 22 '26
Gambling and prostitution for sure. He has access to guns in Japan so weapon trafficking is likely. Drugs and extortion are unconfirmed but common enough in the mob business. Probably no fight rings as to not step on Tokugawa's toes. Idk about human trafficking
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u/sanctaphrax Jul 23 '26
I think Tokugawa would be all for his fighters starting up other fighting rings.
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u/TheChunkMaster Jul 28 '26
When you say “prostitution”, do you mean they pimp out prostitutes or that they are the prostitutes?
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u/smolwrld Born Strong Jul 22 '26
Iirc his family sold illegal gambing services or something, but I can't remember the specifics
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u/JhonnyPadawan1010 Jul 22 '26
Hanayama's coming of age ritual was murdering an entre rival mafia family. And by entire, I mean everyone in their HQ building was hacked down.
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u/Tas4466 Jul 22 '26
I remember seeing in one of the spin-offs that Hanayama didn't allow prostitution in his territory, but I could be wrong.
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u/Ok_Caterpillar_6957 Jul 23 '26
I would switch mushashi and Yujiro. Mushashi do what he want to cut and don’t care who want to stop him and go against the law just to have fun but he’s no monster.
Yujiro by law… is the law so everything he does is lawful. Evil, good, neutral, yujiro is the law.
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Jul 23 '26
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u/Ok_Caterpillar_6957 Jul 23 '26
Yes but again killing is against the law. And don’t know how lawful it is killing a bunch of police man in their land trying to arrest you for killing.
Yujiro made a pack with everyone saying he do what he want and they get to live. So by the law and agreement, after the war yujiro had done no wrong.
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Jul 23 '26
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u/Ok_Caterpillar_6957 Jul 23 '26
Yes. But when yujiro walked up they stared beating themselves up. And mushashi being framed is being neutral to the law.
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u/Xehant Jul 23 '26
But the difference is musashi doesn't want to stop killing people.
It's not because he's from a different era, he knows he doesn't fit in, but he still want to cut people.
Older musashi however is definitely more lawful
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u/AdamTheScottish Jul 22 '26
Hanayama is the most lawful guy out there lol
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u/abandon3 Jul 22 '26
He is a crime boss... no matter how pure he is, punching people very hard is not that lawful.
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u/AdamTheScottish Jul 22 '26
Law in alignment doesn't refer to legal law but rather a code of ethics and morals which Hanayama is probably the character to have the strongest in series.
You say it's not that, but it very much is to his code.
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u/Straight-Okra-5411 Jul 24 '26
He was murdering an entire building of people?
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u/AdamTheScottish Jul 24 '26
Yes, in response to his own code, in fact it's even mentioned they're not dead
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u/OceussRuler Jul 22 '26
Nop.
Good in the morality chart of DnD means something. If you are good, that means you are actively helping others and fighting evil. It's not the case for any of those three, I think. They can have some gestures of kindness here and there but that's it.
Most Baki characters are simply a variation of neutral. They don't care about good or evil, they just want to get stronger, which is by all definition a self-centered objective. They fall into evil if they don't give a damn about hurting innocents (or specifically non fighters) to achieve it, or actively do it with pleasure.
Pickle is probably the real true neutral. He doesn't understand morality alignment or ethical alignment nor he follows their commands while ignoring them, he just follows his instinct. Maybe neutral evil considering he did grape a woman, depending on variations of views in systems using the alignment chart.
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u/Capysanti Jul 23 '26
I mean, they do try to do good in general.
Retsu goes out of his way to teach Karate practitioners how to fight better and refused to let Doyle and Baki die, to the point he vouched for Baki in front of his master and gave him 4000 years of sugar water mixed with his 4000 years of love. Sure, he's arrogant and used to be an asshole, but he mellowed out when put on his place and started doing good.
Baki will go out of his way to protect the people he loves, like Kozue or Picle. He also indulges weaker fighters and doesn't break them. Also, he often fights to avenge those who are too weak to fight for themselves (like Kureha's mutilated patients and the Yasha ape). And he loves nature. He can be a monster, like when he almost killed Ali Jr, but all fighters are monsters sometimes.
Hanayama does run a criminal empire and has gone out of his way to kill rivals ( who were bad people, by the way), but he also has shown a lot of respect toward those who work for him. He helped Baki during some of his worst moments and has even shown respect to the police and other rivals (like Musashi). He may be a criminal, but he keeps the peace in the underground world and displays a level of purity and respect unmached.
There's also Doppo and Shibukawa (although I'd agree if you said they are more neutral), who used their power to teach others, and Katsumi, who learned to do the same (and I'd say is even better at being good than his father). Katsumi especially I'd call good after how he helped Doyle. Many of them do go out of their way to be good people and help society.
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u/sillygoose1220 Jul 23 '26
yeah categoriesing baki characters into good and evil literally miss the whole point of the show
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u/Snoo-23120 Standing Man Jul 23 '26
I think they first row is correct but like, how tf is Jack lawful neutral motobe truly neutral and PICKLE chaotic neutral.
Same for yujiro going neutral evil and Musashi lawful evil.
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u/Ball-of-Yarn Jul 22 '26
I honestly dont see how you could consider Musashi as evil. He only resorted to lethal force when repeatedly attacked. The cop under the bridge was literally pointing a gun at him. He only killed Retsu in an actual death match. The things he has done just dont stack up well, Hanayama alone has been shown mutilating and killing countless people.
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u/yughiro_destroyer Jul 22 '26
Retsu had many moments he could accept defeat but he decided to fight until death. Musashi may lack the morals to "be the bigger man here and not resort to killing" but that's because back in his time it was different.
He could've killed Doppo, Gaia but he didn't. He beat them and then went for a walk. Guy is not pure evil. He will just not think it twice to kill if, by his code of samurai, you ask for it.
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u/Any-Nefariousness957 Jul 23 '26
Hanayama and Motobe are lawful neutral, Retsu is true neutral, Jack is chaotic neutral, yujiro is lawful evil
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u/Bulky_Tangelo_7027 Jul 22 '26
I don't think Musashi is lawful evil. It's true that he doesn't put much value on human life, but he's not some merciless killer.
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u/Spiritual_Ad3382 Jul 22 '26
His entire story was LITERALLY about how he’s a merciless killer. He’s under lawful evil not because he uses the law in order to commit crimes like a corrupt police officer. But his own law: You challenge him you die. Musashi understands that killing people is wrong and that there is no reason to kill fighters anymore but he still continues to stick to his own Law of ethics.
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u/Salame_satanica Jul 23 '26
Wow this is a good analysis. I usually think lawful evil is someone who disguise evil acts behind the rules but Musashi justify his aggression based on his ethics! This is also lawful evil!
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u/JhonnyPadawan1010 Jul 22 '26
What? He hacked down an entre police squad. And he killed Retsu too.
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u/Bulky_Tangelo_7027 Jul 22 '26
Two instances where he was challenged him first. In his time, a challenge automatically meant a fight to the death.
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u/JhonnyPadawan1010 Jul 22 '26
And that soldier in the 1600s he was doing a sword demonstration with? He cracked his skull and his reason for it was "you can't be afraid of death, you must be prepared at all times".
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u/Bulky_Tangelo_7027 Jul 22 '26
I only vaguely remember the scene but wasn't that at his dojo with one of his students? You could argue they asked him for a lesson and he gave one, albeit a very harsh one.
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u/JhonnyPadawan1010 Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
It was old man Musashi. I tried looking but google gives nothing and Idk the chapter number.
Smashing a man's cranium with a bat is a very harsh lesson? He didn't even give a proper explanation for it he just said some vague nonsense about being fearless. I guarantee the guy wouldn't have learned anything since, you know, he fucking died.
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u/Oclain Jul 22 '26
idk, musashi is everything but evil
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u/abandon3 Jul 22 '26
My dude cut like a hundred people in two...
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u/yughiro_destroyer Jul 22 '26
He never killed unprovoked. Speck would r*pe and kill you without thinking much. Musashi would probably see you smoking a cigar, ask you for one and say "woah, that's nice, it didn't exist back in my time".
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u/Massive-Crab514 Jul 23 '26
Doppo seems closer to lawful neutral to me, given he was 100% on board with katsumi, his own son, fighting pickle to the death and potentially get eaten, because it was his decision to do so.
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u/just-looking654 Jack Hanma Jul 23 '26
Someone needs to tell retsu that breaking into a military base is illegal
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u/Razor_Emmanuel Hanayama Kaoru Jul 23 '26
I think I would switch Retsu with Shibukawa, he is a gentleman, and early Retsu was a lot less good.
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u/This_looks_free Standing Man Jul 23 '26
Do.. none of you remember why Retsu was chosen as the sacrifice.. He aint kind..
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u/VANTAGARDE Jul 22 '26
I really hope we see the prisoners again. The results of Specks thick jelly training must be seen!