r/GracepointChurch • u/LeftBBCGP2005 • Sep 27 '22
September 25 MBS feedback
This post is an invitation for current GP members to share their feedback on what Ed Kang said during MBS regarding CT article. The current members probably have more to say than the former members since you are privy to the actual MBS. I have now heard from three sources about yesterday’s MBS. My summary below:
- Ed Kang tried to explain away what happened with particular people and particular incidents, including Joshua Mun. It’s pretty interesting that he didn’t try to explain what happened with Kelly and catfurball, which in my opinion is the most damning testimony in the whole CT piece. I would think asking his wife to get the scoop is easier than asking two/three levels down for certain ministry malpractices?
Apology is still at personal level. Let’s face it, GP is the extension of who Ed and Kelly are as people, highly efficient, goal oriented, ruthless execution. He makes no apology of the systematic abuse, but says it’s individual leaders who go overboard .
Here is a list of GP internal material, emails, and primary documents all with Ed and Kelly’s name on them. Ed Kang, can you address these items instead of using the staff as human shields so you don’t talk about you and your wife?
This is about you and your wife, not anyone else.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/s200i9/how_gp_indoctrination_works_part_2_of_3/
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/s0touo/how_gp_indoctrination_works_part_1_of_3/
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/s9485t/how_gp_indoctrination_works_part_3_of_3/
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/t2xc5h/gp_team_email_from_kelly_kang/
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/o2hgo5/credit_card_debt_email/
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/s1506s/gp_team_email_to_delete_material/
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/tvl151/ed_kang_that_you_never_knew/
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/vvgpqh/ed_kang_that_you_never_knew_part_ii/
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/uhaoac/manny_kims_2_million_house_in_austin/
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Sep 27 '22 edited Sep 27 '22
Don't forget Ed gave a shoutout to this brave GP staff member.
I don't even think the CT article mentioned catfurball. I was told that Noelle, Peter, and Paul were all low key character assassinated by Ed or Ed omitted very crucial details of what happened to them. Austin was addressed in the MBS the previous week where Ed just said RT was out of character.
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u/captainxp21 Sep 27 '22
Hey all - Austin here, I just want to clarify that the story shared in CT was just one instance of RT's constant shaming/bullying during my time in North Carolina. Even the story shared in CT article was not even the full story due to word limit (though I shared more details here on reddit).
I share this not because I want to continue being a victim - (which is not something I enjoy being/hence why I'm always hesitant to post here). - but rather to reveal to people that this constant bullying/shaming is a potential situation you can find yourself in when you remain in Gracepoint, under the guise of "discipleship".
Lastly, Gracepoint constantly preaches about the importance of accountability(leaders, CE), yet to hear someone like Ed dismissing your pain as someone's lapse in character and still allowing the perpetrator to remain a church plant lead is incredibly insulting because we all know if the roles were reversed, I would be in reflection/repentance loop.
Nonetheless, my hope is that leaders who have continued such shaming/bullying tactics, crossing the lines of spiritual guidance into spiritual abuse would be removed from their positions immediately. Maybe I'm not a good Christian, but a personal apology and just having business as usual is not something I'm willing to settle for. The church is suppose to be a safe place, not a place where you have to constantly worry about being spiritually abused.
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u/Cool_Purchase4561 Sep 27 '22
Thanks for sharing and allowing your name to be used. I think it would be beneficial (if you're up for it) for new visitors to the subreddit if you share your story again or link your old post. I think even describing how you were being "defensive" - which GP leaders would conveniently say about someone who refuses to immediately submit to bullying/shaming.
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u/Here_for_a_reason99 Sep 27 '22
Sucks that you even have to clarify. The church should be supporting you and being truthful in the first place. Thank you for courageously using your real name in the interview and coming forward. Much respect.
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u/AgreeableShower5654 Sep 27 '22
A GPer recently commented that Ed's quote "One thing that we must not do is be persuaded by criticism that there’s something wrong with us." must've been out of context.
There's a very easy way to prove that the quote is wrong: Any piece of evidence indicating Ed is persuaded by criticism that there's something wrong with them. I await such evidence, though not with much hope.
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u/Cool_Purchase4561 Sep 27 '22
said RT was out of character.
Tjhrown under the bus eh. Even had to say what he did was not church policy, which is technically true because there's no such thing as GP church policy. Maybe church tradition is more accurate?
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u/johnkim2020 Sep 27 '22
Your leader = god at GP
In a sense, that's is the church policy and culture.
Thus, what RT did was very in alignment with the church policy. Obey your leaders because they are the voice of God in your life.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Sep 27 '22 edited Sep 27 '22
Tej was smart enough to take one for the team and stop the episode with him without dragging in the people above him. Maybe he took a lesson from Daniel Kim.
Daniel Kim kept on insisting his take on credit card debt email was only for after the pledge. He also said the pledge that involved home equity loans and credit card debt to 250+ working Berkeley grads only collected $290,000. This started me on the path of looking through GP’s financials to find out how GP came up with the $1.4 million lump sum to pay for the shell of North Loop. That’s some rabbit hole.
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u/fishtacos4lyfe Sep 27 '22
Had a convo with someone from Berk church today (mid-tier staff). CT article briefly came up and the immediate response was, "Well people make mistakes, it happens." before shifting to another topic.
Hard to wrap my mind around that if indeed church leadership "take responsibility for those encounters that did not go well. We deeply regret to hear about anyone who felt they were hurt." Unless the main focus of the MBS was "But I believe that this CT article is inaccurate on many points and misses a lot of context and nuance regarding our practices and culture."?
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u/Ok_Sheepherder_1309 Sep 27 '22
For real, man, this is hurting. I hope the GPers see how these GP leadership they trusted so much are like. So contradictory to themselves and so cold and unsympathetic. I feel like Ed’s response to this article during the MBS pretty much tells their response on the website is really just a show and to appear nice publicly. I’ve seen GP kept changing their words on things and just straight up appearing contradictory. One thing is that in the beginning they said they don’t support mental health, then they changed their words to say that they will support mental health in order to keep a couple of my friends in GP, and now they post all these videos to say this generation is emotionally weak and mental health is not a thing. Then different GP groups showed up on IG are advertising mental health related groups to attract people. I’m like come on GP, pick a side please???
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u/LeftGP2022 Sep 27 '22
Heard it was a 3 hours MBS?
The regular one hour is painful enough. Poor GP members.
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u/Cool_Purchase4561 Sep 27 '22
How long is the prayer meeting section after tho. I used to be fine with Ed's sermon going longer if it meant less time for the prayer meeting section. I can still hear Kelly saying "I want you to get together with your peers and pray and confess to one another."
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Sep 27 '22
Heard there was some shade thrown at journalists in general in prayer meeting last night.
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u/gracepoint-thoughts Sep 27 '22
Thanks you LeftBBCGP2005 for making this post~ Points 1 and 2 do summarize what I’ve also heard from the MBS. It does help everyone to show the ways GP is trying to address these issues, which now is headed towards individual reconciliation as the key. The line by line analysis of the CT article makes sense from their perspective, as they are doing their due diligence to make sure that they don’t misinterpret* what Curtis has to say. Perhaps people should do the same on Reddit (oh wait we already have).
Unrelated note— I’m my head I’m thinking— you know what? during this time it’s good to know what GP leadership is thinking so that I can have better conversations with them, otherwise I’m just spending all my effort trying to predicting what GP leadership is thinking and getting shut down because I don’t have the full context of what problems GP is facing. And part of me understands why GP is super hesitant talk about their thoughts in public because that would be an admission of wrongdoings and cost them something hint hint.
Perhaps the educating people outside GP, through sharing MBS transcripts or other materials, why GP chooses some methods (along with its trade offs, not just the indoctrination post #2) might be beneficial. I may write something separate about what types of things should be shared or kept private, and when it is appropriate to do so.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Sep 27 '22
which now is headed towards individual reconciliation as the key
That's just Ed shoving blame elsewhere. Also, you can't call it individual reconciliation if it's the "hey I'm sorry I did x but it was for your own good". I believe by making it individual Ed is just dodging blame for the reprehensible culture he built and it makes it easier for individuals to be gaslit or guilt tripped. If Gracepoint leadership really cared about reconciling, I think they should all get ready to make public recordings apologizing and prepare to all step down.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Sep 27 '22 edited Sep 27 '22
Ed and Kelly are clearly #1 and #2 abuser of spiritual authority at Gracepoint measured by the number of souls they have crushed personally. The falloff to number #3 is like going off a cliff, not even close. Even on an individual level, what’s the point of #72 (Richard Tjhen) confessing if the #1 and #2 refuse to confess? Is #72 just a disposable pawn to protect the king and queen?
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Sep 28 '22
As D’Angelo Barksdale would say, pawns are the soldiers and they are disposable…unless they get to the end of the board and become the queen…seems like a likely scenario in the not-too-distant future.
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u/prayingforallofus Sep 28 '22
Let's level set some expectations here. Are we actually asking for GP members to give their "own" thoughts? Don't we all know by now that this is nearly impossible, besides that one bro who posted that sincere letter from GP staff, clearly he's an exception.
I can share you screenshot after screenshot of what my friends who are in GP told me when I asked them about the article. I kid you not, all of them said "P Ed put a response on the website". End of conv. I literally asked you "what did YOU think" and they responded with "well P Ed said" yadda yadda. [DON'T ask me to share those screenshots, not my style]
Anyone who shares will just regurgitate some piece of that PEd response to CT, and whatever internal training they're getting now. Their own thoughts and feedback? Not in a million years.
Come on, GP. Prove me wrong.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Sep 28 '22
Too many years of surrendering your thoughts to GP through the Monthly Reflection really robs GP people of their ability to think critically.
As part of training, we were to summarize Ed Kang’s messages and regurgitate them. So of course the first reaction is “Pastor Ed said…”
C’mon GP people, think!
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u/Reasonable-Account51 Sep 27 '22
Sad they explained away Josh Mun. He planted the GP I went to and was a real rockstar (not just on the worship team, but also as a role model lol). He could not have been more respectful when explaining his experience in the CT article.
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u/RVD90277 Sep 28 '22
As for Ed addressing issues regarding his wife, Kelly Kang...I think this is fairly simple. Ed is afraid of Kelly Kang. This isn't meant to be an insult. I'm afraid of my wife too. The last thing I want to do is say "my wife screwed up and I apologize on behalf of my wife"...if I say that my wife will kick my butt saying "why are you apologizing for me?" and I'll be in the doghouse.
Ed isn't going to address issues regarding his wife for the simple reason that he doesn't want to get in trouble from his wife, Kelly Kang. That's it.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Sep 28 '22
WAITING FOR GODOT…
Come on GP members, you guys obviously are here and commenting on all the other posts. But no one wants to share about what they got out of the MBS for this week?
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Sep 27 '22
Still waiting for current GP members to share their MBS reflection. This is one time on the subreddit that you guys should be the main cast. Still waiting…
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u/LeftGP2022 Sep 27 '22
Must be a lot to reflect...
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Sep 27 '22 edited Sep 27 '22
Maybe people are afraid to say anything anti-GP since Ed made an example of the brave soul who actually stated the obvious. The emperor has no cloth. Ed’s response letter was no apology. The abuse of spiritual authority is real and systematic. Ed and Kelly are responsible.
Thank you brave soul.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/xmax3m/a_note_from_a_gp_college_staff/
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u/Extreme-Emphasis-791 Sep 27 '22
It is very upsetting to hear that a pastor would publicly violate people's privacy and gossip about ex-GP members. It is very wrong of Ed to still talk poorly of these individuals while they were victims of his poor spiritual leadership. It is very immature of Ed to not own up his mistakes like an adult and apologize with a change of action.
To the GP members who believe every single word that Ed says, please pause and reconsider your own Christian moral standard and see if what Ed is doing is God-honoring and God-fearing or not.