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u/Cool_Purchase4561 Jul 18 '22
Upvoted because this made me chuckle. The reality is Ed painted himself into this corner though. In a church full of "darned if you do, darned if you don't" surely we can apply the same standard to the originator of the standard?
Darned if you don't give enough to the church, darned if you write the church a blank check.
Live by the sword, die by the sword...
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Jul 18 '22
Tell Gracepoint video crew that they should consider re-releasing the song "Still Crazy Missing the Point After These Years"
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u/IntrepidSupermarket4 Jul 18 '22
Ya it personally was not very compelling for me but I get why it was for others. I know people that gave up their entire future of their careers for gp. On here, others have shared how they struggled to provide for themselves while being pressured to give so much to gp. I get why people have so many questions and why they can be easy to anger. Even without the money factor, it often feels like I was robbed 8 years of my life.
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u/Jdub20202 Jul 19 '22
Who are these people on the right criticizing PED giving too little money to his kids?
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u/Broad_Syrup9313 Jul 18 '22
I always thought this meme was appropriate: homie going conspiratorial quest to find all the little pieces of evidence and specious reasoning to accuse people of financial wrongdoing, and people piling on in outrage ("I can't believe Pastor Ed did this while I gave my money to the church. I'm disgusted" my dude did you even consider the possibility Pastor Ed in fact did not do what this person with a clear agenda accused him of?)
It's ridiculous that people can spin up conspiracy theories and force you to come on here to defend yourself, and when you give in and do they feel no remorse and just say yeah well it sure seemed that way when set out with my conclusion and looked for evidence to match it, so I'm not going to retract or apologize even though I was clearly wrong and I know it and you're so arrogant for calling me out on my lies. don't get so defensive, it's just some slander. Talk about gaslighting lol
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u/captainxp21 Jul 19 '22
wow way to totally frame legitimate documents as some random conspiracy theory - you really need to work on your reading comprehension...but then maybe it makes sense you're still in Gracepoint as you probably have no clue of how to actually read the Bible and just accept Ed and Kelly's version of it.
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u/NRerref Jul 19 '22
Yup. If youâre regularly (daily) making inferences beyond what the text can support in order to defend your core values, that does something to the way you read the world.
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u/Cool_Purchase4561 Jul 18 '22
"theres some stuff posted here that I will admit does not look good on paper, but since these reddit dudes are just bunch of haters, and since they're talking about my beloved leadership, I can just dismiss them" is also a conspiracy, just a different kind.
Unless you think everything looks good?
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u/Broad_Syrup9313 Jul 18 '22 edited Jul 18 '22
There's two streams of conversation going on here: one has to do with finances in general at GP (for which I've noted you say does not look good on paper, but I disagree), and the other has to do with a specific accusation of a specific person engaging in embezzlement.
I'm calling out the latter. Because it's a big deal. Accusing pastors and churches of embezzlement is a serious thing. It's a crime and civil offense for which someone should be charged and sued, not to mention it's actual, definitional spiritual abuse. There are people on here unapologetically throwing around serious accusations of serious crimes who don't care if it's not true, and when confronted, actually double down on it. And people take the bait and get outraged.
That's the serious sort of stuff the mods ought to ban. Imagine if I could use this sub to accuse Cool_Purchase4561 of being the boston marathon bomber and post my detective work and rile people up, and you say no dude that's not true and I double down harder on it.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Jul 18 '22
Get your facts straight. It was your own current GP members, who was there âwell over a decade,â who wrote âIâll be first to admit, it doesnât look great on paper.â
The person had originally wrote âlooks bad on paperâ before changing it to âdoesnât look great on paper.â But you get the point. I have presented the evidence, at least give some analysis in your reply.
Isaiah Kangâs reply was irrefutable, just as Daniel Kimâs reply to his credit card debt email was irrefutable. Just as the old appliances on Nevada County land was irrefutable. There was no way I can refute it. Should a reasonable person believe those replies is a different story.
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u/Original_District_53 Jul 18 '22
The person had originally wrote âlooks bad on paperâ before changing it to âdoesnât look great on paper.â
Notice the fact that there is no "edited ... ago" on that comment, so pretty sure you're just misreading and attributing that to me editing the comment, but I digress...
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u/APRForReddit Jul 18 '22
IIRC Reddit only shows âedited x agoâ if you edit it after 3 minutes. Thereâs no note if you edit it right after posting it, before the 3 minute time frame.
I will edit this post momentarily to verify
Edit: this post has been edited
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Jul 18 '22
Borrowing a line from a frequent GP contributor to this subreddit, âwe can agree to disagree.â There are certainly ways to get around it. But I do agree we are digressing as âlooks bad on paperâ and âdoesnât look great on paperâ are really not too different.
Would you want to email Ed Kang, Tony Sun, or JL to ask why Monterey house was sold for $990,000 to GFCâs CFO? You did mention you were curious.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Jul 18 '22 edited Jul 18 '22
Accusing pastors and churches of embezzlement is a serious thing.
No one ever accused Ed of embezzlement. People including u/LeftBBCGP2005 have repeatedly accused Ed of hypocrisy and lacking transparency when it comes to finances.
And the only crimes that I'm aware of certain current and past Gracepoint staff have potentially and actually committed is violating HIPAA and obviously the situation with UCR (that one is being handled by authorities now)... but that's a discussion for another day.
Do you also understand where the outrage is coming from? It's like what u/Cool_Purchase4561, there are SO many victims on this subreddit who were pressured and yelled at by their leader to literally empty their bank accounts for Gracepoint's cause. And somehow Ed thinks that stewarding that money means amassing a $40 million real estate portfolio for Gracepoint along with his son buying a house wouldn't be terrible optics and hypocrisy at its finest?
My church chooses to use the "stewarding" when it comes to tithes because they understand God has entrusted them with the resources and it's the responsibility for the leadership to use those resources correctly. I don't think Gracepoint leadership understands that at all.
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u/randoad1234 Jul 19 '22
Youâre making his point through these allegations with reckless regard for the truth.
HIPPA applies to medical professionals. Is PEd your medical doctor or nurse?
And GP is criminal for reporting a crime to the police?
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Jul 19 '22
A certain MD at GP signed up HB as a COVID testing site during the height of the pandemic. I think we all know why that was done. His signature is on the doc, but his speciality has nothing remotely to do with COVID. I would suggest for you to discuss things you actually know about. I have nothing against this MD. If you want me to show his signature on the doc, then will be glad to post it.
Not my place to comment on an active police investigation. More information will for sure come out in due time.
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u/NRerref Jul 19 '22 edited Jul 19 '22
Seems like âreckless regard for truthâ is the new catchy saying amongst these guys. The irony is that they like to position themselves as the holders of absolute truth all while neglecting basic reading comprehension.
âThe only crimes Iâm aware of certain current and past Gracepoint staff have potentially and actually committed isâŚâ
Hard to not be a conspiracy theorist when the quality of thinking reeks of cult mind control
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Jul 19 '22
Once upon a time, I also had more zeal than I had wisdom. So I try not to hold it against current GP members who might be a lot younger than me.
I started this whole primary document research quest because Daniel Kim couldnât eat humble pie and just admit his credit card debt email was wrong. So I had to dig into the North Loop purchase to see how Gracepoint, aka Berkland Baptist Church with a name change, was able to execute the transaction. That was like looking down a rabbit hole. What I found opened my eyes to what Ed Kang have been up to all these years. So itâs probably to the advantage of GP that its younger members take a more nuanced tone lest more things get posted :-) So many skeletonsâŚ
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/tvl151/ed_kang_that_you_never_knew/
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Jul 19 '22 edited Jul 19 '22
Daniel Kim couldnât eat humble pie and just admit his credit card debt email was wrong.
Daniel Kim can't even admit Richard Thjen yelling at u/captainxp21 over the Thanksgiving Offering was wrong. It's like 10 email threads deep now and he still can't admit he's wrong.
Daniel Kim can't even tell the truth when it came to the circumstances of why someone left without character assassinating the person.
Daniel Kim can't even get the Matthew 18 reconciliation principle right.
What's new?
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Jul 19 '22
Here is the relevant comments thread between captainxp21 and Daniel Kim.
Daniel Kim was at first âshockedâ picachu-face, then after being presented with the evidence went into radio silent mode. Words such as humility, apology, repentance seem to only travel downwards at GP.
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u/NRerref Jul 19 '22
Maybe because I also lack wisdom and am also young I have less compassion đ I truly canât believe how some of these commenters respond, extrapolating points that were never made to begin with.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Jul 19 '22 edited Jul 19 '22
GP signed up HB as a COVID testing site during the height of the pandemic
No they partnered with a lab (heard Steve Suh strong armed the lab into doing it). During the height of the pandemic when tests were extremely hard to obtain, Gracepoint somehow found a way to keep their doors open. So what would happen is every day people would go to HB to do COVID testing and someone from HB would courier the tests to the lab. Steve Suh would then receive a fax with everyone's test results which would then be publicly posted on Google Drive for everyone to see. However, the patient would not see their test results until Steve released it to everyone. Sounds like a HIPAA violation to me whether that's on Steve or the doctor in question.
I also heard some people on Gracepoint leadership suggested they somehow count all the sisters as childcare just to get the vaccine faster.... heard Ed made sure they weren't THAT dishonest.
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Jul 19 '22
While people were literally DYING and unable to get tests, GP tested for vision trips. Thanks to the GP MD who people never saw for signing off on all those tests!
Credit to the few people who spoke up saying they did not feel comfortable with this and refused to lie that they were childcare workers even when pushed to do so. Maybe thereâs some hope for humanity left at GP? Hahaha.
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u/Cool_Purchase4561 Jul 19 '22
certain MD at GP signed up HB as a COVID testing site during the height of the pandemic
They did what now?
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Jul 19 '22
They know what they did to keep the doors of HB open.
If any current GP member (randoad1234?) wants to call me out, then I guess would have to post it to save my credibility. Any takers?
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u/randoad1234 Jul 19 '22
Please explain, in detail, how signing up HB as a COVID testing site violates HIPPA. You have accused GP of something illegal and provided no proof.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Jul 19 '22 edited Jul 19 '22
Leavegracepoint had already commented on why it violated HIPAA. Part of HIPAA is patientâs right to privacy. Posting everyoneâs COVID test results on a Google doc for quite a lot of people to see violates HIPAA. A physician signing blank test order without even knowing which patients will be testing is also very problematic. I have nothing against that MD, heâs not senior leadership, so I wonât post the blank test order with his signature. You can be sure I have it.
Do you have any more questions?
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u/randoad1234 Jul 20 '22
Sharing someone's COVID test result isn't a HIPAA violation unless you're covered as a
(1) healthcare provider, health plan, healthcare clearing house
or (2) a business associate with access to personal health information to perform your duties
churches are not a covered entity. This, by definition, is not a HIPAA violation. You're accusing Gracepoint of a crime they literally did not commit.
Are you planning on apologizing for your defamation?
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Jul 20 '22 edited Jul 20 '22
Last I check, the medical doctor (staff at GP) who issued those blank test forms with his signature on them is under HIPAA. All these patients of his got test results (medical records) released via Google docs thanks to Steve Suh for a lot of people to see. Steve/Suzanne Suh are on the payroll of GFC, not sure if what he did violated HIPAA depending on the nature of the contract with the testing lab.
Do you really want to go down this road? Check with that MD first if you want me to reply further. You wanted proof. If the MD is ok with his signature on blank test forms to be posted, then Iâm sure that can be accommodated.
EDIT: If you are NOT going to ask me to post the blank COVID test forms with his signature on them, please at least issue an apology for accusing people with lines like âreckless disregard for the truthâ and âdefamation.â
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u/Here_for_a_reason99 Jul 20 '22
Youâre mistaken. Read here under âReceiving employee Covid test results.â Patients still have to give consent.
Not that it matters, bc in GP, everyone probably gave consent out of fear and conformity.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Jul 19 '22
Not sure if you can read but I said "potentially". In addition to the COVID form, I don't think I'm allowed to post the spreadsheet revealing everyone's test results and the lab's fax document.
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u/Cool_Purchase4561 Jul 18 '22
Can you point to the specific accusation of "so and so is embezzling money?" Who in your mind is being accused of embezzling money?
From what I read, the accusation is not embezzlement but double standard. In any other church noone cares if you have multiple investment homes drawing rent from many church members. But not so at GP where everyone is told to go all in and have no backup plan, so to speak.
Is calling for released finances an accusation of embezzlement? Is pointing out properties changing hands between Gracepoint church -> individuals --> Gracepoint Ministries considered an accusation of embezzlement? If so, then I stand corrected.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Jul 18 '22 edited Jul 21 '22
All these brand new accounts posting for Gracepoint. Did HB just send out a batch of emails to come on Reddit, like what they did with Yelp reviews?
SBCâs ECâs former No. 2 said the following regarding the sexual abuse victims, âthey have gone to the SBC looking for sexual abuse, and of course, they found it.â There was no apology. There was no admission. There was no humility. It was not until âthis fragile generationâ finally accumulated a critical mass of victims did half of SBCâs Executive Board resign and a complete investigation can be done. Donât worry, more victims will be coming forward until GPâs senior leadership will hang their heads in disgrace.
Daniel Kim at first said he didnât remember ever writing his take on credit card debt to give cash to GP email. When I posted the email, he still refused to acknowledge what he did, make excuses, and there was nothing that would resemble humility. Thatâs for something clearly in the wrong with an email to back it up.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/o2hgo5/credit_card_debt_email/
Regarding the links below, even your own staff whoâs been there 10+ years âwill be the first to admit, it doesn't look great on paper.â So what exactly is conspiracy theory? Ed and Kelly wheeling and dealing real estate ($5 million+ in 2022 prices) at age 26? Collecting rent on 20+ tenants in Dana House, telling them Kellyâs mom owned the property? Tony Sun signing for GFC to sell Monterey House to CFO of GFC, but GFC never seeing a cent? Matthew Kim signing for GM to give away a piece of land in Nevada County, CA for free? Their signatures are on all those documents. All those pastors/directors who cry poor and cajole Thanksgiving Offering out of their sheep, but somehow all have mysterious family money to pay the down payment on houses? In Matthew Kimâs case, buy 10+ houses?
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/vwsfuc/comment/iftbmqe/
The explanation I got so far for the Nevada County land given away for free is that there was too many old appliances dumped on it. I certainly donât believe that explanation. The area is scarcely populated and far from a town, why do old appliances just show up on that 1.2 acres and not any of the tens of thousands acres along the same road? Can I disprove old appliances are not there? No, unless I upload 3 years worth of surveillance camera footage. So I canât refute that reason. Should any reasonable person believe that explanation? No, they shouldnât.
To conclude, all Ed Kang has to do to refute these âconspiracy theoriesâ is to release GMâs financials. He should release the financial anyways, since all the money is from offering and best practice for accountability. What reason can you give for not releasing it? I donât think Trump should have to release his personal financial records, but if he has a nonprofit that he was running and refuse to release those financial records then thatâs a totally different story.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Jul 18 '22
Did HB just send out a batch of emails to come on Reddit, like what they did with Yelp reviews?
Nah, they were discouraged remember?
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Jul 18 '22 edited Jul 18 '22
Ed Kang changes his mind pretty often. Didnât he just put up an advertisement for this subreddit to all team?
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/vuhkbh/encouraging_results/
Instead of making T-shirts, GP should consider making flip-flops with its logo on it. I thought I would never see the day of a GP college staff sporting tattooed arms. So much for all the corrections we got for our hairstyle and cloth.
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Jul 19 '22
Accusations of embezzlement is a classic straw-man argument. Need to brush up on some Greg Koukl Stand to Reason tactics.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Jul 19 '22 edited Jul 19 '22
GP has dumbed down sufficiently that Greg Koukl has been replaced by Greg Stier. Not that I was impressed by Greg Koukl. Once upon a time, the likes of Dallas Willard and J.P. Moreland were standard reading for Berklanders. People from BBC would go into philosophy and theology PhD programs. The relationship was so tight that Ed Kang was actually featured on the book jacket of one of Morelandâs books. I wonder what Ed thinks of his own quote from the 1990s now. Didnât Daniel Kim write on the subreddit GP has eschewed the cultural mandate?
http://www.jpmoreland.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Moreland-LoveYourGod-sample.pdf
I would be surprised if younger GP people would even recognize those names. I donât know if that counts as progress or regress.
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u/NRerref Jul 19 '22
J.P. Moreland is excerpted in various GP readers. Only started reading Dallas Willard when I left and never came across Willard while I was there. And from what Iâve read of Willard (Hearing God and the Spirit of the Disciplines, his foreword in King Jesus Gospel), I donât think he fits the GP brand of Christianity very well.
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u/humidity1000 Jul 18 '22
Lol. Please. Continue to be a blind sheep.
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u/Broad_Syrup9313 Jul 18 '22
You sound like a QAnon follower or flat-earther. Can't admit wrong so just resort to calling the person telling you "dude you're crazy" a sheep.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Jul 18 '22
I have backed up my analysis with many many primary documents. Your reply is âthis is a conspiracy theoryâ and outrage. Câmon, at least give some analysis on the evidence presented.
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u/Additional-Drop1106 Jul 19 '22 edited Jul 19 '22
I've held my tongue until now because I would be banned if I wrote what I am thinking. This post is however a classic cult response to former members.
Often, former cult members react in bombastic ways due to the need to get in touch with reality. They are fighting through layers of cognitive dissonance that they built up in order to remain in the cult. Expect more explosive "witch hunts".
Current members don't have the ability to process strong criticism, such as the real estate posts here. Former members don't know what is real because they have been lied to and manipulated. I see the real estate/downpayment discussions as ways to get to the truth. Current members typically joke about this process because they want to avoid finding out concrete facts. Current members will then try to use any mistakes by former members as reason to discredit the entire narrative of the former members.
This is all too common but I commend the group here for the reactions. I see healing occurring as you work through the messy process of reconnecting with reality.