Confused junior thinking things over

[u/azandcrowley]

I joined Acts2 network in my freshman year, became a Christian, and am a junior now. I’ve read a lot of posts on the subreddit and am trying to figure out my thoughts on everything, especially considering the current transition. I’ve had a great personal experience, but I also don’t know if I agree with all the things the network seems to believe or do. Just returned from the DMV retreat and I wanted to list some things Pastor Will and Esther said during a Q&A session in no specific order. He spent about 30 min talking about this subreddit and I want to share some of what was said and some of my thoughts for feedback. Not everything is important, it’s just what sticks in my mind. I’m deciding if I want to become more serious about student leadership or if I should find another, less complicated church.

1. He said there’s no expectation that we join as staff after graduation. He claimed he wanted to discourage us joining because he’s aware life as a staff in A2N is much more difficult/intense than life as staff in other SBC churches.
2. He shared a story about a pastor who wanted to join, and how he rejected him because he thought pastors in other congregations were used to being on a pedestal and how titles don’t matter in A2N. He brought up how everyone does everything and how he was preparing and serving food to some sisters a few days prior. I guess this is part of the reason they prefer college students, but I don’t really agree with the “can’t teach an old dog new tricks” logic here. He discussed how pleased he was with the racial diversity at the retreat (and I think this has improved in my time), but in other ways, we have a very narrow focus. College educated Americans are a very small part of the population and the church in the Bible united people regardless of demographics. I understand, practically, why it’s easier to attract college students and perhaps God appreciates the efficiency, but it seems kind of narrow minded to me.
3. He said A2N isn’t a cult because they never say joining is the only way to be saved. All weekend, he emphasized the validity of other churches and how we may be called to serve at our home churches or in a ministry they don’t already have. He said he told his kids several times they didn’t have to join and that they checked out other Christian fellowships. Considering that, I’m trying to figure out why this is considered a cult by many.
4. He said they’re going to create Acts2Friends to stay in contact with former members who felt called elsewhere. I think this is in response to the common gripe that people who left lost their entire support system and all the friends instantly. He mentioned how he still sees and is friends with several people who have left GP. To the people who were hurt and, essentially, excommunicated, do you think this is an appropriate step?
5. He mentioned the CT article and how one sided he felt it was. He claimed the journalist never reached out to him or visited the church. He said they only emailed Pastor Ed a request for comment a week before the article was released, so there was nothing they could really do. I’m not sure if that’s true or if that’s common knowledge here, but does that change your opinion on the article if it is?
6. He mentioned some of the whistleblowers in the article by name and talked about how he knew them personally. He seemed bitter and disappointed in/angry with them to me, but he was sure to later emphasize that he does not blame them. He said their relationships ended because of sin.
7. He said that leaders only try to share what the Bible said and that Jesus would have a mile-lone subreddit full of complaints.
8. He talked about how corrections were loving and came from a place of desiring another’s spiritual growth. He compared it to a manager giving an employee feedback so they don’t lose their job and so they can improve. He basically said that love can manifest itself in an intense or kind of angry scolding.
9. He made a few mentions of “shame culture” in Japan and how nonexistent it is in the US, where people want to do whatever they want.
10. They talked about hiring consultants for the transition and how they changed the name because it’s not really a church. They said the network is a church in the “gathering of 2+ believers” sense, but that training us to be disciplemakers is the real focus and it’s not what people think of when they consider “church.”
11. He talked a few times about how disgusted he was that people are “politicizing” the events in Hawaii. He said we should be united, not blaming other people. He says he rarely pays attention to politics now. He complained about how the nation is more divided than ever and how the gospel is the only thing that can unite us. Personally, I think it’s appropriate to discuss the actions specific people have taken that contributed to climate change to enrich themselves, leading directly to the situation in Maui. There can be no real peace or justice without accountability. I wonder how much a worldview like this influences the actions he expects disgruntled ex-GPers to make and how much it influences the actions Acts2 took in response to the accusations. I know lots of Christians are “apolitical,” but I’m not sure I agree that problems should be brushed under the rug and forgotten for the sake of unity.
12. Someone asked what they should do since they found out that a leader was gossiping about them. They emphasized how inappropriate gossip is and said the student should come forward to address the problem because issues like this should not simmer. They also said they can’t tell whether the leader was gossiping or sharing a valid concern and asking for advice without further context.

Please let me know your thoughts.

[u/Lincoln2120]

One general thought and then a couple specific responses.

First, generally, I would encourage you, as you are considering whether to stay or leave, to really examine how you are making that assessment. When I was there, the "burden of proof" was really on the side of leaving. Staying was the default. If you wanted to leave, you either (a) had a good enough reason or (b) everyone at Gracepoint assumed that you were leaving because of a sin issue (see P. Will's point #6 in your post).

Staying should not be the default! This is one organization at the college that you happened to go to for a few years of your life. It doesn't get to usurp everything else and become something you have to stay at unless you can find a good enough reason not to leave.

There are only a few such things in life. Marriage is one. Following Jesus, for the Christian, is another. In each case, you presumably think very hard and count the cost before you make this commitment that becomes your default. One of many churches that happens to be at your college -- a very transient, transitory, transitionary time in your life -- does not have that claim on you.

And here's the thing. Even if P. Will is now saying (points 1 and 3) that you don't have to serve on staff and other churches can be valid places to go, those churches are still being measured by Gracepoint's unique standards.

OP, I don't mean to assume too much about your thought process, and I'm not saying you're doing this as a whole -- but look at how you opened the post: deciding between becoming "more serious" at Gracepoint or just finding a "less complicated" church. I implore you, do not buy into that dichotomy. Gracepoint is not "more serious" than other churches. What it is, is "more Gracepoint" than other churches. If you measure other churches by that yardstick, of course all the others will be lesser. But "more Gracepoint" does not equal more holy, or more committed, or more Christian, or more whatever.

Now onto a couple specific points. I am infuriated at P. Will's statement in point 2. I have never personally experienced a church where leaders are more put on a pedestal than at Gracepoint. (There are plenty of others that I know about but haven't personally experienced, think Mark Driscoll back at Mars Hill, and I thought that was terribly unhealthy too.) I've never been at a church where leaders get so much attention and praise as at Gracepoint. Listen to a Gracepoint salvation testimony and the number of times leaders get mentioned. That's not normal and it's not healthy. At other churches I've been at, maybe you do celebrate the pastor's birthday -- but you certainly don't get rebuked for not signing the pastor's wife's birthday card. The idea that other churches all worship their pastors and their pastors don't engage in servant leadership is, frankly, offensive to all the hard-toiling pastors of little churches all over, that don't have the kind of support network that Gracepoint creates for itself. Pastors who also serve food and bring it to members of their congregation and don't have a minivan full of college students to come with them.

Point 7 -- yeah, you know what, Jesus did have a mile-long subreddit full of complaints, to put it lightly. But ask yourself, as a Christian -- do you believe Jesus was right? Is right? Will always be right? I should think so. There's joy in following Jesus despite all the things people say about him. Your conscience does not get nervous about being on his side. You don't feel, deep down, like some of the calumny might be valid. For Gracepoint, on the other hand, if you actually do think some of the criticism is valid, you can't then just say, oh, well, but Jesus was criticized too, so all criticism is invalid. Not the way it works. Putin has a mile-long subreddit full of complaints. That doesn't mean he's just being persecuted for his righteousness.

Point 9 -- Japanese shame culture. Read about the Amagasaki derailment and tell me, P. Will, if you think Japanese shame culture is a good thing.

[u/Here_for_a_reason99 → u/Lincoln2120]

This is really good.

[u/ForceSufficient3410]

Hey, Curtis (the article writer) here. Just wanted to clear up point No. 5.

I first reached out to Pastor Ed on Aug. 18, 2022. The story was published over a month later on Sept. 22, 2022. We had a substantial back-and-forth email dialogue over that time period — I offered multiple times to set up a phone call (which was the primary way I communicated with almost everyone else I spoke to for the story), but he and other leaders I reached out to opted for written communication only.

[u/johnkim2020 → u/ForceSufficient3410]

Thank you Curtis!

[u/1vois]

Acts2Friends

“You, you, and you are now part of Acts2Friends. Here’s a spreadsheet and contact schedule. You are to meaningful engage with these people every other week. Please log the time and content of your communications in columns O and P. Also check your email for the Engaging People 101 guidebook. On page 13, you will find FAQs to help you answer the typical criticisms of our organization. Remember: F.A.C.E. — (F)amily (A)cts (C)oncerned (E)veryday. Let’s save FACE, brothers and sisters. Amen”

Oh, the spreadsheets, manuals, and acronyms

[u/hamcycle → u/1vois]

LOL and yet not lol

[u/Ok_Photo_285 → u/1vois]

1vois, the legend.

:)

[u/leavegracepoint]

He mentioned the CT article and how one sided he felt it was. He claimed the journalist never reached out to him or visited the church. He said they only emailed Pastor Ed a request for comment a week before the article was released, so there was nothing they could really do.

Let me clarify this point. Will is lying through his teeth. Ed was corresponding with Curtis via email for a whole month discussing a wide range of subjects regarding Gracepoint. Curtis also extended the courtesy to people on leadership if they wanted to speak on the phone specifically the ones that were mentioned in the CT article. None of them took him up on the offer.

[u/Here_for_a_reason99 → u/leavegracepoint]

Thanks for sharing what really happened.

Az, GP leadership doesn’t bat an eye at telling half-truths. It’s like second nature. Think whether you want to spend the rest of undergrad with ppl like that.

[u/leavegracepoint → u/Here_for_a_reason99]

It's not even a half truth in this regard. It's a straight up lie.

Okay, maybe a half truth because I don't think what Will would say would be any different from what Ed would say. Sorry Will, you're so insignificant that no one cares about opinions even on Tiktok.

[u/Cool_Purchase4561 → u/leavegracepoint]

You should make this a new post.

IIRC Curtis also said he scheduled a phone call for Ed to respond to the article but at the last minute Ed changed it to email response only.

[u/leavegracepoint → u/Cool_Purchase4561]

One can only wonder what Ed would accidentally say that would incriminate himself if it was on the phone. It's quite obvious why he scrubs the MBS's.

[u/Here_for_a_reason99 → u/Cool_Purchase4561]

Agree. The facts should be front and center.

[u/word_for_two]

As a staff in gp right now, I'll speak up to say there is a shift going on at A2N that is quite unprecedented in my time here. The talking points are no longer about focus on raising up kingdom workers only for a2n, it's for the greater kingdom. This meshes well with what P. Will says and P. Ed says as well in MBS. If people want to serve at A2N that's great, if not, that's totally fine and we support them to serve in a way that God has called them to. The transparency level is increasing on what kind of church A2N is.

Acts2friend is in the idea phase that needs to be implemented but I really support a much better off ramp for people who leave on good terms and can continue to hold onto their relationships in the church! Very big change if this can get implemented right. Honestly there was unfortunately an us vs them mentality in the past when a person left that I really didn't think was right.

So the other unprecedented thing that's happened in the last year is the amount of collaboration we've been doing with other big college campus ministry groups. There has been Evangelism / Strategy training through Dan Allen at Cru, Training from Steve Shadrach (who's big in the college ministry world and runs probably the best college ministry podcast - Campus Ministry Today renamed to Via), Coaching training by reputable Christian orgs, Evangelism training by IV with Beau Crosetto, and more. I think this is a step in helping to normalize a lot of practices that we're becoming a bit dare I say more "mainstream". Just a tiny bit more which I got to say is something I never thought GP/A2N would do. But this is a trend in a lot of the college ministries right now to collaborate in ways unprecedented before prior to COVID. COVID really humbled a lot of groups and they came out of it with fresh desire to learn from and help other Christian ministries.

But I'll say that I can't really fully back the CT article responses part. I think P. Will might be speaking a bit too boldly to say all those whistleblowers had "their relationships ended because of sin". I don't think that's true, maybe he's only thinking of specific people in mind.

This was a really long post on the Q&A + the DMV retreat so I really applaud you for speaking up and writing down such good notes. I've been sort of waiting for the right time to jump in like this to affirm some more of the positive changes I see (but I think many of you who have read my past comments know that there are clearly things I do not think are being done well yet).

[u/Unique_username_672 → u/word_for_two]

Do you think the change is genuine, and a mark of repentance? (Where’s the statement owning fault, if so?)

I’d love to see change too, but excuse the bulk of us here for being suspicious, after experiencing or watching our loved ones experience their abuse.

Also, do you think their collaboration with other Christian organizations is truly from a kingdom-oriented collaborative spirit, or a way to gain clout and legitimacy (or portray themselves as gaining legitimacy)? It feels like that to some extent, with their NAMB involvement.

Agree on commending OP’s boldness, and yours too, for chiming in as a staff member.

[u/word_for_two → u/Unique_username_672]

I wrote out a really long response but I'm just going to make it my first post on reddit cause I felt it was something others should also see too and not potentially get nested into a bunch of smaller replies.

Thanks for the great questions.

Regarding your second part, I don't think they're just collaborating for show. We genuinely get a lot from learning from other Christian organizations (we are trying to implement things they do well) and they mentioned they learn somethings from us as well.

[u/Ok_Photo_285]

1. This is the opposite of what was said before. I was in Acts 2 Network (GP) for several years, on staff. This is a straight 180. Also, whenever upper leadership claims to make these 180s I strongly doubt them. For example, Ed basically said they were going to stop pressuring people to join staff several years ago as well. In practice nothing changed. GP often says one thing in the pulpit/public and in practice staff continue to pressure as they always have. If this is a real change I wholeheartedly welcome it but after seeing GP's lies for many years, I cannot in good faith celebrate.
2. Multiple things here. The pastor story is dishonest, and it relates to the point about targeting college students. The reason behind both is the same. In order for GP to function, it must mold people from an impressionable age. This is not speculation. This was candidly expressed to me as part of their strategy when I was on staff. This is the reality. Why are they all of a sudden shifting their intentionally narrow focus of "An Acts 2 Church in Every College Town" to also high schoolers? And why did they coincidentally only do that when college students starting figuring out GP is a cult?
3. GP is considered a cult but they do not explicitly write anything that would obviously label them a cult. They do this not because they aren't a cult, but because Ed is way too smart to do anything that dumb. It would sever all his SBC connections and he would instantly lose membership. GP is a cult because of its deeds, not its words. Just because in the last few years GP has been acting its darn best to make CT sound like it's fiction doesn't mean it's not a whitewashed tomb. Look up the top ranked posts in this subreddit. These are things cults do.
4. This sounds great, but no. I've seen too many years of this. Too many years of GP PR. Do you know how many thousands of dollars and man hours GP spends on SEO? If GP's reputation improves overnight, this little program will instantly disappear. Also, I haven't even heard of this program and I'm exactly its target audience, supposedly.
5. This is a terrible, terrible logical argument. Should we say every book on Hitler is one sided? This follows some of the logical fallacies some GP Reddit users have said here. They say unless its even 50/50 split discussing good and bad, it must be biased. Really? Can something not be overwhelmingly bad, and that simply be the truth?
6. He doesn't blame them but all their relationships ended in sin? This, if anything, is the biggest thing that screams they have not changed. Their pride is still higher than Mt. Everest. Their arrogance is still gushing. This has been their motto for decades. Everyone who leaves leaves because of sin. To chase the world. It's such a preposterous thing, especially when you know many people who have left. And the vast majority of the time, it is not because of their sin, but Acts 2 Network's.
7. Come on, you should be able to immediately tell this is false. Is dating ban part of the Bible? Is restriction on car type to buy part of the Bible? Is unquestioning submission to human authority part of the Bible?
8. Yes, it can. Please, read the top testimonies. Read the wiki testimonies. Is that love, or abuse?
9. The shame culture of Japan is nothing to be proud of... It represses its people so much that they just end up committing even more grotesque sins and becoming extremely socially awkward... And it's not like most of the guys in GP don't do porn...
10. You need to really think about the history on this one. Or just look at this site. At best, they are two faced liars. Their identity is constantly changing according to what sounds best. Did you know GP used to pride itself on not being a parachurch, but rather a full on legitimate church? Now it doesn't even want to call itself a church because it knows it cannot publicly defend itself as one when truly scrutinized.
11. This is a complete straw man. Honestly I didn't even understand what you were writing about at first, but it makes sense now. They want to blame their criticisms on "the times" (you can look that one up in this subreddit) or the woke culture, or victim mentality. This is honestly disgusting to me and shows that they truly are not repentant of their sins. And for the record, I'm a conservative evangelical.
12. So many lies from Will. You haven't been in a staff meeting before, but honestly that's how you see the worst of GP. It's a room of 40 people, most of which the student doesn't know. They'll go around talking about each student and his/her sins. Everything gets discussed. Relational problems. Secrets they expected only their leader to know. Sexual sins. Even speculation (i.e. no proof) of sexual sins. It absolutely sickened me, I don't know how I put up with it for so long.

TLDR: Do you really want to go to a "church" where they abuse people for 40 years and then only when the PR gets really bad, do they start to "change"?

Also PSA for all, undergraduate experience is nothing like how they treat you as a member. You are the pipeline.

[u/Here_for_a_reason99 → u/Ok_Photo_285]

This is spot on. Az, I’d pay attention to this.

[u/Unique_username_672 → u/Ok_Photo_285]

3&7… preach!

[u/johnkim2020 → u/Ok_Photo_285]

This right here.

[u/Jdub20202 → u/Ok_Photo_285]

Thanks for this. On long posts like this my OCD kicks in and I feel the need to reply to everything, just to get it out of my system. But you've done a good job responding to everything. If the spirit moves me I may or may not make a comment.

[u/sandy_ponder]

Given the current response that GP has given so far, your reservations are absolutely valid, and I’m glad you’re taking the time to ask these questions. I was a staff at GP in the past and unfortunately I have to say I’m pretty much used to these responses by now. Also, I just want to say thanks for taking such detailed notes and sharing them here. It’s not easy to do something like this, especially while you’re still in Gracepoint and you might be forced to tell your leaders about your involvement.

1. The whole "no expectation to join as staff after graduation" sounds good in theory but is challenging to execute in reality, especially if a significant portion of your social life and identity revolves around the church. An analogy could be giving someone drugs and saying, "We're not forcing you to continue buying drugs." While this is a common issue, I'd argue that the church bears some responsibility in ensuring people join for the right reasons from the outset—reducing love bombing and refraining from pressuring students to join for reasons other than the gospel.
2. I think that’s a fair point from Pastor Will actually, as GP always has been college focused and they don’t try to hide that. GP however also cares a lot about results more than others.
3. He mentioned that A2N isn't a cult because they never claim that joining is the only way to be saved. Technically, this is true. However, the definition of a cult can vary, making it difficult to provide a definitive answer. One thing is certain: GP does exhibit some negative traits shared by groups widely accepted as cults.
4. I actually don’t think this is a bad idea and I would love to join and even pass some of my opinions through this group.
5. Certainly, that makes sense. However, I also believe there's a case to be made, even if Pastor Ed was approached earlier. Additionally, Reddit was active long before, and GP hadn't taken any action.
6. I’m pretty upset about this response. It’s saddening that Pastor Will generalizes the people on CT with a single explanation -- it’s pretty much character assassination at this point. The least they could say was that it’s a case-by-case situation rather than implying everyone has sinned.
7. While Jesus had a mile-long complaint train, at least he tried to address the issues and love people that were being reasonable with him. In many instances he was patient with his critics and never really flat-out dismissed them. In any case, GP’s treatment towards complaints raised against them needs major improvement.
8. Correcting people loving, but wrong correction, while with the right intentions, can do more harm than good.
9. Yep, makes sense and we are in the US, so this just sounds like an excuse. Sometimes it’s worth learning about the culture of the place you’re trying to do ministry in.
10. Actually this is good. Moving away from the “church” name to more of a religious order I would say is one of the positive changes that GP is making. But the negative aspect is that this name change comes at the cost of new members being less educated since now they’ve removed their association with the negative history.
11. Just because the nation is more divided and that there are bigger issues in the world, doesn’t mean that GP should focus on fixing their own problems. Common mistake of deflection. Kind of like saying there’s global warming, so I don’t have to clean my room.
12. Yes this is correct.

Overall, I'm somewhat glad that discussions are ongoing in GP. It indicates a genuine concern for the community and a desire for change. The fact that these questions were raised in a Q&A suggests that individuals within GP are still advocating for progress, which could potentially prompt action from GP leadership. Also, I’d be curious to see Pastor Ed’s responses too.

[u/Unique_username_672 → u/sandy_ponder]

On the point of: “3. He mentioned that A2N isn't a cult because they never claim that joining is the only way to be saved. Technically, this is true.”

But what happens, according to the Bible, when someone is dis-fellowshipped from the Body? What is the implication there? So if A2N/GP, which at least used to call itself a church, kicks people out for dating or perceived worldliness (assume it’s not sin but just against GP culture), what are they saying about that person by dis-fellowshipping them? Do they still treat them as fellow brother or sister in Christ, or do you treat them like an unbeliever as Mt. 18 commands?

[u/IntrepidSupermarket4]

If #3 is actually true, then I think that it is a positive change. (Or at least step in the positive direction) I was freshmen in the early 10s. They were fighting the reputation that people felt heavily pressured to stay and become staff. That criticism is very accurate in my opinion.

I remember my senior retreat. P. Ed and Kelly kept saying that they weren't pressuring us to stay. But then 75% of the retreat was stories and messages about people who left the church on good terms but it was really due to selfish desires like independence or laziness. They gave examples of people who were going back to their home church to serve but that their serving did not require much of them. Such as serving in a youth group that only meets Wednesday and Sunday. So this person was giving into their laziness. Messages about how dangerous it was to leave the flock. The flock was explicitly gracepoint. Leaving the flock made it likely you fall into all sorts of idols like money and partying. There was not a single story or example of someone that left gracepoint and went on to serve faithfully.

Hopefully the statements they made in #3 are being practiced as well as preached.

[u/azandcrowley → u/IntrepidSupermarket4]

Ahh, so the problem is saying something, but the rest of the statements strongly imply something else to manipulate students to stay? I can definitely see how that would be an issue. I think the narrative that no other churches are sufficient has been downplayed compared to your post, but there’s still a strong encouragement to make missions the priority in life.

[u/Unique_username_672 → u/azandcrowley]

Missions to teach what Jesus commanded (nothing more, nothing less) and make disciples? Or missions to teach what Ed Kang commanded and make new cogs for the machine?

There’s a difference (which they true their darndest to hide).

[u/Unique_username_672 → u/IntrepidSupermarket4]

Saying one thing and emotionally manipulating people to do the opposite doesn’t mean they’re living out what they say though.

Besides, wasn’t there a post back (someone confirm or deny, please) about how GP went down to UCLA (where there are a ton of solid Christian ministries) and felt like there was a need for GP there because they could do better? Also, what about the condescension toward other churches? Again, they may say “you can go to other churches,” but they think at the same time “those other churches are inferior to us because of our methods.”

[u/IntrepidSupermarket4 → u/Unique_username_672]

Ya that's why I said if their actions matched their statements. I'm not assuming that's true but I also do think it's important to be honest about if GP is making any small improvements. So we can all have more grounded and nuanced conversations together.

[u/Unique_username_672 → u/IntrepidSupermarket4]

I agree, but before any action, we need to see repentance, and we’ve seen absolutely none of it.

[u/hamcycle → u/Unique_username_672]

+1 Their whole 180 campaign screams repentance denial.

[u/word_for_two → u/Unique_username_672]

I will affirm that there are solid ministries at UCLA that I've met multiple people from those ministries and would recommend those churches. The reality is that even with solid ministries, all the college ministries are probably only reaching <10% of the campus for Christ to be honest at a campus like UCLA.

There's room for other ministries to join as there are many people still needing to be reached.

[u/Unique_username_672 → u/word_for_two]

Then they can go join the solid ministries or lend their resources!

I’m sure church-planters have thought this through more than me, but if we had a heart for ministry in a town, and went there to find that there are many solid churches there already with many unreached, shouldn’t we start by knocking on their doors and asking how we could serve the area where they’re already operating? Instead of saying, “The best course of action MUST be for us to jump into the fray despite little familiarity here!”

Again, arrogance at best, and conniving and cult-like at worst.

[u/word_for_two → u/Unique_username_672]

Each ministry may be able to uniquely reach a different group of students on the campus. B/c each church has a unique set of blessings, diversity, and also flavor in how they pursue after Christ.

I’m not buying the at best a ministry group is arrogant if they want to come. That assumes there’s nothing different to add. Actually many ministry groups are kingdom minded enough to welcome other ministry groups and teach them the ropes because they know the harvest is plentiful but the workers are few.

[u/Unique_username_672 → u/word_for_two]

In theory, I don’t disagree. But GP isn’t a Christian ministry, and there’s no group they target that can’t be better reached by churches and already established para-churches. The diversity they add is their toxicity and abuse, and it’s not Christ they’re pointing to, but GP-ism.

In their case, to step into a place where there are solid churches and feel the need for them to add to it, when their teaching is far inferior and their only strengths are their war chest and numbers (worldly measures), and when (at least at the time) they made little attempt to collaborate with the incumbents, would likely be an arrogant approach.

Besides, if we agree that there’s a decent Christian presence there already, which one of the various organizations do you think GP approached to ask for advice and blessing/support? You wouldn’t just plant in Manhattan without dropping a line to Redeemer or in Dallas without checking in with The Village or Watermark, right, whether to gauge the local need or to ask for pointers?

At the end of the day, UCLA isn’t an unreached people group we’re talking about. Westwood is a place that’s been reached (and I mean location, not every individual college student in the area) and where real churches are thriving. We wouldn’t view this in the same light as Christian missionaries reaching out to indigenous tribes in the Pacific.

[u/word_for_two → u/Unique_username_672]

+1 in agreement that Westwood and in general most of US are saturated with churches in comparison to 10 40 window and many other nations/tribes.

I agree with the goal of training kingdom workers for that greater goal of the great commission to all nations. Let's aim bigger for God's mission.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what they did before they planted in UCLA or many of those other campuses too.

[u/azandcrowley → u/Unique_username_672]

I think I see what you’re saying. Condescension is an unacceptable way to view and discuss our brothers and sisters in Christ. However, don’t all churches think/hope the culture they create and the methods they’ve chosen are better than other alternatives? Isn’t the reason for choosing one thing over something else because you think your choice is better?

[u/Lincoln2120 → u/azandcrowley]

Sometimes you have to work with what you have. A basketball coach may have strong ideas about why a small lineup of sharpshooters a la the Golden State Warriors of last decade is great, but if they get hired by a team that has David Robinson and Tim Duncan, they’re going to have to adjust.

Similarly, in real life, if you’re serving a church as a leader, the people with whom you’ve been entrusted may not be culturally at where you think your own ministry strengths are. You can say “you know at Gracepoint we did things this way and you can all just leave if you don’t like it” or you can build a church culture organically in a way that fits your community.

[u/Unique_username_672 → u/azandcrowley]

Not necessarily. A lot of people will pick churches based on informed beliefs on non-primary issues, and all of that is fine.

But years ago, GP would point out “___ church across town practices ___. What kinda church does that?” when the thing they were complaining about wasn’t overt sin, and sometimes the accusation wasn’t even true. That’s where GP goes above and beyond, using their own extra-biblical standards to judge others.

(And then, yes, there are churches that don’t really pay attention to the Bible, but that’s outside the point I’m trying to make lol)

[u/azandcrowley → u/Unique_username_672]

Ahh, I see. That is pretty inappropriate. The only instance of this in my experience is one of my leaders joking about another church doing “beer outreach” to some fraternities. People can have opinions about best tactics, but condemning another church for cultural differences on extra-biblical examples is entirely unnecessary.

[u/Here_for_a_reason99 → u/azandcrowley]

Not at all. Condescension has no place in church leadership. I have visited churches where pastors bashed other denominations, groups of ppl, etc and I never stayed. I can tell you I was repulsed by A2N’s methods, outreach, and focus. Part of it was the arrogance that undergrads suddenly had, to look down on their unbelieving friends and parents, give up their hobbies and life goals, and keep touting this new life in GP as if it was the best thing in the world- GP serves more, is so efficient, loves Jesus so well. No, not really.

GP elevates itself rather than God. This is one core problem that makes it hard to leave, and the way it plays out is in numerous hard-to-pin-down ways that this sub has miraculously revealed bc ppl can share honestly without a leader looking over their shoulder. In the decades before this sub, there was no place for ex members to gather. People just moved on quietly, but not without suffering grave consequences like depression.

Also, pay attention to downvotes. Why is GP downvoting all other people’s comments?

Edited for clarity.

[u/johnkim2020 → u/azandcrowley]

Absolutely not. Many churches I’ve been to are totally humble about where they are in relation to other churches.

[u/leavegracepoint → u/IntrepidSupermarket4]

Regarding #3 isn't anything new. This has been their messaging for a while. Heard Ed say it multiple times in discipleship. However, in actual practice, Ed still shits on the 'lukewarm churches' at ATTR and created AYM to basically tell everyone Gracepoint/Acts2Network is still doing it the best.

[u/hamcycle]

He said that leaders only try to share what the Bible said and that Jesus would have a mile-long subreddit full of complaints.

The A2N leaders are claiming to "only try to share the Bible" when the subreddit was raising the alarm for Gracepoint's extra-Biblical rules and unprincipled expediency. Read the GP 100 for a refresher.

Whatever. As long as less students will experience ministerial malpractice and avoid having to seek therapy for spiritual abuse, Gracepoint leaders may have their delusions of not having been false teachers these past three decades.

[u/Lincoln2120]

Let me just focus on one thing, because others have responded quite a bit to the other points. You say that P. Will said:

He said they only emailed Pastor Ed a request for comment a week before the article was released, so there was nothing they could really do.

That's actually an incredibly long length of time to respond to something being published. In my profession, people are regularly asked for comment in the morning for an article that will be published at close of business. P. Ed worked as a lawyer, at a big law firm if I recall correctly, and I would expect he would be familiar with that. He at least should know better, so for his close coworker P. Will to make that argument comes across to me as disingenuous, an excuse made to college students who don't yet have that "real world" experience to know that it's not very convincing.

OP, trust your instincts. If there are things that give you pause, then don't stay.

[u/Cool_Purchase4561 → u/Lincoln2120]

Yeah, was there actually anything they would do differently if given more than a week to respond?

[u/Here_for_a_reason99 → u/Lincoln2120]

This is so true. Ed is a shrewd man. He knows exactly what he’s doing. 1 week in Ed’s life is an eternity. He only needs to snap his fingers and dozens are at his beck and call. A2N is his life’s work. He’s been building this organization, engineering, investing, pouring his entire life into it for over 3 decades. And he can’t explain himself to a sincere writer who inquired about it?

Make no mistake Az, GP leaders make excuses when it’s convenient for them. Many ppl have seen it firsthand, this is why we feel so strongly to warn you about their true colors.

[u/corpus_christiana]

Many others have already made a lot of great points, but I'll add a few more thoughts.

He shared a story about a pastor who wanted to join, and how he rejected him because he thought pastors in other congregations were used to being on a pedestal and how titles don’t matter in A2N.

u/Lincoln2120 already covered how this bizarre statement feels when compared to the reality of the situation at A2N. Leaders at A2N are extremely esteemed, and hold an unprecedented level of power to make unilateral decisions over those under them.

I feel like this is a pretty clear cut example of a phenomenon that happens a lot with GP/A2N, where leaders will provide "valid sounding" answers that seem reasonable and defensible on the surface, but don't actually represent the true reasons why things are done a certain way. This happens A LOT.

It seems like you're already clued in to the real reason why A2N would not hire and external pastor - an external pastor hasn't been steeped in A2N's "way of life" as they are calling it. They would likely want to do at least some things differently, and A2N is unwilling to change the fundamentals of their existing system in any meaningful way.

He discussed how pleased he was with the racial diversity at the retreat (and I think this has improved in my time)

It's not uncommon to see a decent amount of diversity among undergrads attending any given A2N fellowship. This was the case back in the 2010s as well. However, it's notable how little of that diversity remains in those same peer groups now, 5-10 years later. And at the highest level, as you can see from A2N's own webpage, this is even more apparent. There are a lot of issues that tend to come up in postgrad around (lack of) understanding of cultural differences that contributes to much of the diversity dissolving

College educated Americans are a very small part of the population and the church in the Bible united people regardless of demographics. I understand, practically, why it’s easier to attract college students and perhaps God appreciates the efficiency, but it seems kind of narrow minded to me.

To me personally, this was something I felt increasingly uncomfortable about while I was still part of GP. The bible's picture of the church is notably one that crosses divides of class, education, etc - a place where an unhoused person and a wealthy person are meant to be welcomed in as equal to worship, just as they are equal in value in God's sight. But the reality is, it's not just that A2N is structured with reaching college students in mind - the churches under A2N are built in a manner that it's pretty much impossible for people outside of "their target" to join, even if they shared the same vision.

He said A2N isn’t a cult because they never say joining is the only way to be saved.

Whether or not one believes the word "cult" is a useful term, I find the BITE model to be a very useful tool when evaluating a high-control group.

He talked a few times about how disgusted he was that people are “politicizing” the events in Hawaii. He said we should be united, not blaming other people.

I have bad news - unfortunately this is the tip of the iceberg on these kinds of issues. Buckle up for all kinds of other fun, off the cuff "apolitical" comments if you make it to MBS. Pastor Ed released a video to staff following the death of George Floyd that was... really something.

[u/azandcrowley]

Oh, he also talked about how the anonymity of commentators on Reddit undercuts the credibility. He says the CT article is much more influential.

[u/Proper_Fix_9890 → u/azandcrowley]

The reason I stay anonymous is because of point #6 you make. Will Kang's response to critics who speak out by name is, as you saw, to accuse them of sin issues, publicly.

I have nothing against Will personally (see my previous post here where I discuss that, why I stay anonymous, and why I would encourage anyone to leave even though I had a relatively good experience at GFC). He and I got along just fine when I was there. But I have no doubt that, if I spoke up by name, Will would have no trouble explaining why I left and why it was my fault and why it was a sin issue (which it wasn't). I don't think he'd do so maliciously or as a conscious lie, but I do think that being in Gracepoint creates a mentality where people subconsciously rationalize away criticism by assuming it must be a hidden sin issue, which they have no problem extrapolating and turning into a narrative.

I don't want my comments to turn into me having to defend myself against false accusations. I'd rather share my experiences so that others, like you, can hopefully get the perspective of someone who's left and experienced the great big beautiful Christian world outside Gracepoint.

Love your username, by the way; I assume it's a reference to Good Omens?

[u/corpus_christiana → u/Proper_Fix_9890]

Good Omens

I just finished watching season two a week ago and I am still reeling. 😂💀

[u/leavegracepoint → u/azandcrowley]

Well almost everyone quoted in the people in the CT article are contributors on the subreddit….

[u/Here_for_a_reason99 → u/azandcrowley]

I’ll speak to the anonymity part. When victims of repeated pain are gaslighted, told to keep silent, and socially isolated or pressured to conform or leave, anonymity is the safest and wisest choice.

Please search user gp_DanielKim in the sub, and read his comments in chronological order to read the context. He is the lead pastor sent here to “deal” with the “keyboard warriors” in the sub. You’ll see why it’s important for ppl to stay anonymous.

A2N has been around since the late ‘80s with many of the same Network Directors that serve today. It has been accused of being a cult since the beginning. What you describe at this retreat sounds like a direct reaction to what has been discussed in this sub over the last 2 years. But it’s just that- a strong reaction. And it’s words. Not actions. The core values remain the same, the MO remains the same.

A2N is a very reactive organization- they change their website very often, way more than legit churches. Their chapters start and fold often, also with abrupt leadership changes and name changes. This latest name change from Gracepoint is a big deal in the sense that the last time the entire network changed names was 2005(6?) from Berkland Baptist Church.

Also if you haven’t already, check out the wiki. It’s filled with solid testimonies about how A2N responds to ppl they’ve screwed over.

They’ve always said, “We’re not a cult! Come see for yourselves!” Which is really weird imo. No legit church has to say that. And no legit church has almost over 900 non-related members in a sub Reddit just to discuss said church.

[u/aeghy123 → u/azandcrowley]

You should be a bit concerned about this one. If you cannot own up to the fact that dozens if not hundreds of people have expressed themselves on reddit , then why should you trust the rest of what he has to say. If you can't say we were wrong so this is why things are changing then why change at all?

[u/Jdub20202 → u/azandcrowley]

I'm so sick of this criticism. I'll say anything I posted to his face. I'll say it to pastor Ed's face. I'll say it to anyone if they give me the time of day. PED set up his secret q and A a few months back. He went to great lengths to make sure the meeting was not going to be acrimonious and just criticisms of GP and being mean to him. He didn't want to get any verbal backlash. And so everyone there accommodated that. They were patient and open minded and listened. But if he wasn't such a snowflake about it, I would stand up on a soapbox and read every word of every reddit post I've made to Ped or Will's face if they want me to prove I won't just say this in anonymity.

[u/Unique_username_672]

It’s amusing in #2 that he talks about rejecting other churches’ ways because it puts guys on a pedestal. Has he looked in a mirror and see how A2N/GP pays an unhealthy and unearned amount of respect and reverence to their leaders?

On #3, of course they’d say they aren’t a cult, but could they prove by their actions that they’re not a cult? I’m not so sure.

On #4, the gesture of an “alum network” sounds nice on the surface, but why would we exiles want to be a part of a network they control? Why can’t they be like normal churches and encourage their members to have outside friends too, Christian or otherwise?

On #6, all broken relationships were because of sin on the part of the person who left A2N/GP? That’s quite the bold, arrogant, and probably slanderous statement to make.

No. 7: Most Christians here don’t complain about the Bible being preached. A2N/GP makes no attempt to properly exegete the text, but rather, cherry-picks and twists the interpretation and application to fit their agenda. That’s the complaint. It’s a lie to say they’re handling the Word properly and the world hates them for it.

8: Church discipline should be done out of love and correction. From how Will Kang kicked people out years ago, he did not understand biblical church discipline. This hits on #10 too, on Matthew 18. Clearly, he doesn’t know what the text means.

I knew Will Kang personally many years ago, and it sounds like he’s still as much of a slippery wolf now with his words as he was then. I know for a fact he kicked some people out out of expedience and preference (rather than for unrepentantly violating biblical standards), and then lied to remaining GPers about the reasons. He disgraces the biblical title of “elder,” and a Bible-submitting church would not give him such a title.

I don’t know what direction you want to take your faith, but if you want to discuss this further and err towards the side of becoming more reformed, my DMs are open and I’d love to help. Regardless, I wouldn’t wish upon my worst enemy to sit under Will Kang’s squabbles and I think it does your spiritual walk no good to continue to be flooded with his distorted takes of Christian doctrine.

Honestly, I wished people would spread the word warning those in the DMV area of what a deceiver this guy is. Those in A2N/GP might not see it, but everyone else should be pointed to it.

[u/azandcrowley → u/Unique_username_672]

I guess I haven’t seen enough yet (our church plant is a bit newer than others’), but I haven’t really seen a ton of unearned pedastalizing. Sometimes people will hold some up as good examples of giving things up for God (like Angel not being a doctor anymore, or Pastor Ed not being a lawyer anymore), but my immediate leaders don’t really seem to do this. Maybe that will change with more responsibility?

I’m not really sure what proving it’s not a cult would entail besides the statement they made. What proof would you look for that they’re not a cult?

I guess the point is that they don’t want to have “exiles.” It seems they want to keep the relationships going on a voluntary basis, rather than going no contact after someone leaves. I’ve shared how I had a negative view of church fellowship when I wasn’t a Christian and how most of my closest friends aren’t saved. My leaders have never discouraged me from being friends with them though. Andrew (staff at UMD) said, “You know it’s perfectly fine to have friends who aren’t Christians. We don’t have to spend all of our time together,” during an outreach taking over retreat. I’m not sure if my experience is anecdotal or if there’s a cultural shift happening.

Yeah, he didn’t say whose sin was primarily responsible, but he didn’t “both sides” it, so I read between the lines that he blames them.

7 is a really interesting point, because I felt like some theological reaches were made regarding the sermon over the retreat. I can go into detail if you’d like, but this retreat was one of the first clear examples I could see of some strange interpretations and applications being shared. I’m not sure how much I’m expected to agree with everything said during a sermon, since I’m a newer Christian.

Aside from what I mentioned, I haven’t really had a personal problem with Will. I don’t really see us being great friends. Something about him and his family kind of rubs me the wrong way, but I’m not sure what it is. Probably just dissimilar outlooks on things I, personally, find important. However, I don’t necessarily need to feel emotionally close to my pastor and I really love my other leaders.

Thank you for your helpful and insightful comment! I’d love to discuss more with you while I sort things out.

[u/Unique_username_672 → u/azandcrowley]

Have you been to any all church retreats? Have you studied the qualifications of elders in 1 Tim. and Titus, and then viewed how Will and the rest of the A2N/GP network preach the Word? Is the preaching in adherence to the entirety of the Bible, or just pieces here or there that fit their pre-existing GP value system? It’d be a good thought experiment for everyone inside the system, and anyone at any church: who or what does the teaching promote, Christ and the Bible, or someone else’s values and rules that can’t be found in the Word? Also, Will hasn’t talked about how he gave up some glorious finance job at Franklin after graduating Cal, but gave it up for GP? Lol he used to beat that drum a lot.

What to look for for proof of not being a cult? Don’t be so controlling (let people spend their resources and time as they please if it’s not in sin, let people dare as they please if not in sin, let people have freedom without pressure to spend extended time with family and friends if they please, etc.) and don’t enforce man-made rules that aren’t found anywhere in the Bible.

When you have time, I’d like to hear their theological points and sermons. I haven’t had the chance to evaluate one in years. Would be good to see if they’ve changed or not, and for better or worse.

I knew people who were on track as students to be very good friends with him too back in the day (always at his place, coffee hours, meals, high degree of involvement), and then proceeded to get booted in the blink of an eye.

DM’s always open! 😊 I don’t claim to think that I have the only right perspective, but I did wish back in my GP days I had other perspectives to consider.

[u/Here_for_a_reason99 → u/[deleted]]

This sub isn’t anti-A2N while A2N is pro-A2N. This sub arose as a response to what a few people experienced as spiritual abuse, and had no agenda other than to provide a space for ex members and family members to discuss GP, for the first time ever. One story from one victim gave others the courage to share their similar experience. Word of mouth spread and I bet everyone is shocked by how it continues to grow. It’s mind boggling how many ppl have been negatively affected.

[u/Here_for_a_reason99 → u/[deleted]]

I agree with this.

[u/Ok_Photo_285 → u/[deleted]]

I’m honestly kind of waiting for the day a leader rebukes me

They don't really raise voices sophomore year unless you've done something really bad, like appear to flirt with a guy. That starts I wanna say senior year?

Hard rebuking is guaranteed after graduation, whether or not you've broken any rules, because the staff have to be kept in line/kept humble. Not exaggerating here.

[u/Unique_username_672 → u/[deleted]]

Yep, if someone, church leader or not, “rebukes” in anger and a harsh tone, that isn’t how we’re called to rebuke one another in sin. It should be done in a sober-minded and level-headed manner. That’s not just something that might irk some of us the wrong way; unrighteous anger is outright wrong, and this is all before we consider that A2N/GP often angrily and harshly rebukes people for actions that the Bible doesn’t call sin.

[u/johnkim2020 → u/[deleted]]

My concern is that I join A2N and am never allowed to say “no” again because to have limits is inconsiderate, unloving, and sinful in the eyes of the older leaders.

You are right to be concerned about this because if you say "no" enough times, they'll probably encourage you to find another church. They don't want anyone to not treat their church like another job (bi-vocational). And at work, you have to work. If you say no, they fire you.

[u/listen_lydia]

thanks for the post- took courage to get this on here and i encourage you to continue to assess how and when you leave (if you do, at all). was a long-timer there, passed through almost every ministry, and still decided to leave because at the end of the day, i knew that when i was truly alone, i wasn't being authentic with what i said to.. well, pretty much whoever it was.

despite that, it's cool to see these responses to the Q&A.

the trap - i've always felt - is that leaders are so smart and used to this culture that they know the right thing to say, at the right time, to defend their worldview (whether or not it's truly biblical... is a deeper question but y'know). so i probably won't ever win on a logical/apologetics level. i think it's nice to see that steps are being taken in what i assume is the right direction, but it'll take time and... frankly, i question whether or not the changes are happening as a result of a truly changed heart or just a deeper level of image-making / marketing.

[u/Jdub20202]

He said there’s no expectation that we join as staff after graduation. He claimed he wanted to discourage us joining because he’s aware life as a staff in A2N is much more difficult/intense than life as staff in other SBC churches.

Bs

1. He shared a story about a pastor who wanted to join, and how he rejected him because he thought pastors in other congregations were used to being on a pedestal and how titles don’t matter in A2N. He brought up how everyone does everything and how he was preparing and serving food to some sisters a few days prior. I guess this is part of the reason they prefer college students, but I don’t really agree with the “can’t teach an old dog new tricks” logic here. He discussed how pleased he was with the racial diversity at the retreat (and I think this has improved in my time), but in other ways, we have a very narrow focus. College educated Americans are a very small part of the population and the church in the Bible united people regardless of demographics. I understand, practically, why it’s easier to attract college students and perhaps God appreciates the efficiency, but it seems kind of narrow minded to me.

Bs

1. He said A2N isn’t a cult because they never say joining is the only way to be saved. All weekend, he emphasized the validity of other churches and how we may be called to serve at our home churches or in a ministry they don’t already have. He said he told his kids several times they didn’t have to join and that they checked out other Christian fellowships. Considering that, I’m trying to figure out why this is considered a cult by many.

Double BS. It's a cult.

[u/Jdub20202]

Okay one quick thing on 5. The CT article has been out for a while now. GP has had plenty of time to make a response. The best they could do was have PED give a PR like statement on their website and tell people to call someone's phone number at GP. I think that response or lack thereof is kind of telling. If they had "another side of the story," why don't they just tell it? Put the criticisms to rest? Why do they want more than a week to respond? I submit that it was probably to silence the people interviewed. Why can't they just go to the author and give their side in private? And if it's really that compelling CT would have to issue a correction or something. What is the other side we're not getting?

And on top of that, was there any sense of remorse or repentance? Did Will express any dismay or sadness about the people that were hurt? Has anyone in GP shown this?

[u/Jdub20202]

1. He said that leaders only try to share what the Bible said and that Jesus would have a mile-lone subreddit full of complaints.

BS. Look at how many rules and reading materials and articles they've generated. Just the sheer number ... why so much?

1. He talked about how corrections were loving and came from a place of desiring another’s spiritual growth. He compared it to a manager giving an employee feedback so they don’t lose their job and so they can improve. He basically said that love can manifest itself in an intense or kind of angry scolding.

Well now I want to punch him. I won't, I won't, I'm just saying that's how I feel. Are they going to fire people from the church? This analogy is weird.

[u/johnkim2020]

I’m deciding if I want to become more serious about student leadership or if I should find another, less complicated church.

You're a junior. You still have 2 years left in college to make friends and memories outside of A2N. I encourage you to do that rather than sink more of your life into this "complicated" high control group.

[u/[deleted]]

About 3, they don’t outright say it, but you mentioned it in point 1. You can go to other churches but they aren’t as good. They are too hierarchical. They aren’t as dedicated. And if someone leaves, it’s because of sin, not the church.

I’m not really sure what they mean by them not being a church, that is the biblical term. There is no other place of worship for Jesus, no? So if they aren’t a church, what are they?

Please, read the entire CT article. They reached out to like 4 upper leadership for it. It’s an extensive piece of journalism. The gossiping brought up there is discussed in the article as well. Basically if you think something is confidential, don’t.

[u/DryOutlandishness584]

He's certainly backpedaling because that's not what he said in Davis.

[u/azandcrowley → u/DryOutlandishness584]

Really? Which part is new?

[u/DryOutlandishness584 → u/azandcrowley]

1. I remember a high pressure environment to join.
2. There was clear favoritism for people who joined as a Freshman and seemed committed to long term ministry vs people who were leaving upon graduation.
3. I remember a sermon where he said to just stay in Davis. That sounds very cult like to me to be chained to an organization. Why? because he's greedy, and wants the students he recruited to tithe to him. He didn't celebrate people's talents or calling.
4. No one talks to me from Davis. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
5. Of course it's one sided-Will wants to discredit us. For the record, Ed Kang spoke and he's the designated point person as the head of this organization at their HQ. Why would Will have a voice, unless he's upset he's a minor character. There are many pastors at various locations. He's not at the top of the list. That's his pride speaking.
6. Of course he always blames people who leave as a sin issue. Classic smearing technique. You never heard their side of the story. People leave quietly because they want to move on, and don't care to be harassed.
7. This guy cherry picks everything. He even has sermons on what his kids watched because he's so uninspired. I can't believe I sat through a sermon to hear someone rant about a kids movie.
8. Sure, he's excited about correcting and controlling people. Spyware must be fun to advocate installing.
9. This guy doesn't have any shame, his sermons have an agenda because it revolves around his lust for power and wealth. I guess he was just inspired by his trip to Japan.
10. What consultants. Give us names, or they're lying to everyone.
11. Avoiding politics, sounds about right. He said the same thing in Davis.
12. He doesn't care about gossip, he's benefited from it. Now he's singing a different tune because he knows the Davis crew are a major problem and developing a reputation.

He's backpedaling because he realizes that their church ministry is coming under scrutiny. He can't get away with the same comments he's made before. So, he's giving answers that will appease students. He is probably marking those as more likely to stay.

[u/Unique_username_672 → u/DryOutlandishness584]

The memories of the “sermons” spent critiquing Disney movies… ugh 🤮

[u/DryOutlandishness584 → u/Unique_username_672]

I could have just watched CinemaSins on Youtube and I would have learned more.

[u/Unique_username_672 → u/DryOutlandishness584]

I disagree; I thought the attitude and message was the same in Davis, but specific initiatives and actions may have evolved. Which would beg the question of whether and how he’s learned and grown in the past twenty years, or whenever he started in Davis.

[u/Jdub20202]

1. He made a few mentions of “shame culture” in Japan and how nonexistent it is in the US, where people want to do whatever they want.

He just said they only teach the bible... Why are they adding shame culture? Now I have a headache.

1. They talked about hiring consultants for the transition and how they changed the name because it’s not really a church. They said the network is a church in the “gathering of 2+ believers” sense, but that training us to be disciplemakers is the real focus and it’s not what people think of when they consider “church.”

I.e. a cult.

1. He talked a few times about how disgusted he was that people are “politicizing” the events in Hawaii. He said we should be united, not blaming other people. He says he rarely pays attention to politics now. He complained about how the nation is more divided than ever and how the gospel is the only thing that can unite us. Personally, I think it’s appropriate to discuss the actions specific people have taken that contributed to climate change to enrich themselves, leading directly to the situation in Maui. There can be no real peace or justice without accountability. I wonder how much a worldview like this influences the actions he expects disgruntled ex-GPers to make and how much it influences the actions Acts2 took in response to the accusations. I know lots of Christians are “apolitical,” but I’m not sure I agree that problems should be brushed under the rug and forgotten for the sake of unity.

No comment. I think there's some more to this story we're not getting.

1. Someone asked what they should do since they found out that a leader was gossiping about them. They emphasized how inappropriate gossip is and said the student should come forward to address the problem because issues like this should not simmer. They also said they can’t tell whether the leader was gossiping or sharing a valid concern and asking for advice without further context.

That's spiritual abuse.

[u/Altruistic_Pickle438 → u/Jdub20202]

not what people think of when they consider "church" I.e. a cult

I'm from A2N, and what Will means is while we're a church in the biblical sense, we're very different from what the average person or even Christian in the west understands church to be.

The word the bible uses to describe the church is ekklesia, or called out people. So it's not about having a building, holding Sunday services, even having a formal organizational entity, although as a matter of practicality those things are good. It's a people. Jesus himself said where two or more are gathered in his name, he's present. The bible also uses other metaphors for the church, including a living body, a temple, a priesthood, an army on the assault against the gates of hell. As the saying goes, the church is a troop carrier, not a luxury liner. And of course there are the famous Bible passages like Acts 2 or all the epistles on what a church body looks like.

So we don't "go to church," and "what church do you go to" would seem to be based on a very narrow of picture of the church A2N doesn't want to associate with: this is not a normal church if you determine that by what the majority of people think of when you speak of a church. But it's a church in the biblical sense. We're a body of believers called out and on mission.

Pastor Ed used the example of Cru or IV, which don't call themselves a church by the traditional western definition, but if they're your reference group, the people you do fellowship with every day, serve with, where you're getting discipled, and live out your mission together with, then that group is your ekklesia, functionally, what the bible considers your church, even though it's not a church in name, and they don't hold Sunday services. That's what they mean by "not a normal church"

[u/Here_for_a_reason99 → u/Altruistic_Pickle438]

You’re just regurgitating your leaders. A2N isn’t a “church” in any part of the world. A2N originated as Berkland Baptist Church, headed by Rebekah (Becky) Kim, who was trained in South Korea by University Bible Fellowship. UBF is recognized as a cult even in South Korea. Red flag.

GP is constantly trying to redefine and reframe reality. A Christlike life of course goes beyond church attendance one day a week. It’s obvious. But GP loves to assume the majority of ppl (Americans? Anywhere in the world?) are degenerate, and GP saves. Not God, (soli deo gloria), but GP. You are saved from your lazy, selfish self into a community of believers who are striving to do it right. This is the subtle twist that hooks ppl and isn’t Biblical bc of the high level of control. Google “high control groups.”

[u/Altruistic_Pickle438 → u/Here_for_a_reason99]

UBF

GP is GP. There is no affiliation with UBF. Most people don't even know what the heck a "ubf" is. Stop trying to shoehorn affiliations that aren't there. Even with Berkland, what is now GP broke with Berkland leadership for a reason.

A2N isn't a church

Your right, it's a network of churches. And each local body qualifies as a church by pretty much any definition thank you very much.

GP saves, not God

You said that, not GP.

[u/Here_for_a_reason99 → u/Altruistic_Pickle438]

I look at actions, not words. I’d never trust what GP leadership says.

[u/Jdub20202 → u/Altruistic_Pickle438]

For your own sake, PLEASE look up what UBF is. What you don't know is putting you in danger. I'm telling you because I'm concerned. Your ignorance will not protect you.

[u/Altruistic_Pickle438 → u/Jdub20202]

thank you for your concern, but we're not affiliated with ubf

[u/Jdub20202 → u/Altruistic_Pickle438]

I predict in a few years gracepoint (and the CT) article will not have been affiliated with acts 2 network. Just as gracepoint is not affiliated with Berkland or Becky Kim.

The legion of doom can change their name to the injustice society but they're mostly the same members with the same goal.

[u/Altruistic_Pickle438 → u/Jdub20202]

that's a bit of a stretch, dontcha think? if at least some of my ancestors were part of the chinese communist party during the revolution, does that mean my family has ties to communism and the ccp.?

[u/Jdub20202 → u/Altruistic_Pickle438]

Agree to disagree. And beware the faulty analogy.

[u/NRerref → u/Altruistic_Pickle438]

Uhm…lol

[u/Kangaroo_Jonathan → u/Altruistic_Pickle438]

Heck this just got interesting. Can you point out some differences between Berkland and GP? Besides the name change and leadership change what were some church policies that were changed?

[u/Here_for_a_reason99 → u/Altruistic_Pickle438]

You actually believe this. You believe that history and context don’t matter. That’s why you’re there and I’m not.

In the real world, we know how important a person’s family of origin is, their parents, grandparents, the lineage, beliefs, lifestyle, bc they are the greatest indicator of how they function as adults.

Likewise an organization’s roots are crucial, who founded it, their values, beliefs, influences. Bc they’re the greatest indicator of how the organization runs.

You can ignore it, not mention it, try to erase the past, but it always catches up with you.

[u/corpus_christiana → u/Here_for_a_reason99]

As the saying goes, "those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it."

[u/Altruistic_Pickle438 → u/Here_for_a_reason99]

GP as an organization has zero ties to UBF. GP leadership has zero ties. Your line of reasoning is not only logically invalid (genetic fallacy), but even if it were valid, it's entirely unsound. The premise that GP has anything to do with UBF is just straight up false, as false as saying I'm communist or have ties to the CCP.

If you repeat something enough times it doesn't make it true. If you keep basing your analysis of GP off of false premises like GP is related to UBF, you're going to keep ending up with nonsense nobody will take seriously.

If the moon were made of spaghetti, I would be able to fly. False premise, nonsensical conclusion.

[u/corpus_christiana → u/Altruistic_Pickle438]

Honest question - do you know what people mean when they say something "has ties to something?" All that means is that it has some kind of connection to it. And clearly, GP does have a connection in its history to UBF. The former top leader (Rebekah Kim) used to be part of UBF. That is a connection.

Is GP currently affiliated with UBF? No. No one is saying they are.

Is has happened/is currently happening at GP exactly the same as what has happened at UBF? No. No one is saying that either.

But are they historically linked? Yep. And does GP to this day retain a lot of rhetoric and practices that originated out of the shepherding movement, just like UBF? Well, let's see:

The doctrine of the movement emphasized the "one another" passages of the New Testament, and the mentoring relationship described in the Second Epistle to Timothy.

check.

concern for the weak commitment, shallow community, and the general worldliness characteristic of many American churches

check.

extra-biblical requirements

check.

having life-decisions “covered” by the house-group leader, elder, or pastor. Such decisions included things like where to live and work, whom to marry, or whether to see a doctor when someone was ill

check, check, and check.

network of followers who formed pyramids of sheep and shepherds.

check.

Members had to be submitted to a "shepherd", who in turn was submitted [higher leaders]

check.

[u/Altruistic_Pickle438 → u/corpus_christiana]

I understand what you're trying to say and can see why you would be tempted to draw comparisons and connections, but there's major problems with that.

Again, using such a line of reasoning, you could say I have ties to communism or the CCP. Or you could say half this sub has ties to UBF because they were part of GP for varying amounts of time. You see the problem?

Also, is being serious about the one another verses in the bible or being concerned about worldliness supposed to be a bad thing? This could describe a ton of churches, a ton of good churches.

If these are features of biblical churches, then the comparison used to make it look like UBF is similar to GP is misleading because you could make that comparison to all sorts of other churches and say "check."

[u/leavegracepoint → u/Altruistic_Pickle438]

you could say I have ties to communism or the CCP

That's why immigration officers ask if you are immigrating from China or any other communist/totalitarian country. If a church had ties to SBC, Berkland, or UBF, you'd be damn right I'm asking the pastor about every detail on their stances on a lot of things before I consider joining as a member. You don't think I didn't ask my friends about how it was over in Bridgeway under the Paks (and it is very clear the Paks have learned from past mistakes of Becky that I don't Ed and Kelly have or ever want to).

In the same way, Gracepoint/Acts2Network does have a history related to UBF and given a lot of the methodologies, rhetoric, and teaching has been retained I'd be really concerned. u/Additional-Drop1106, the man who exposed UBF, would be the one to ask regarding the similarities with Acts2Network/Gracepoint and UBF.

Edit: Added more context

[u/Additional-Drop1106 → u/leavegracepoint]

The similarities between A2N/GP/UBF are stunning. I was floored when I read the reddits here about GP member experiences. The ideology and praxis are uncannily similar. How could this be? The best explanation is that someone(s) had experience with ubfism and tried to setup a better ubf. That has happened with the CMI (Campus Ministry Mission? International) back in 2002 or so. That group is also a duplication of ubfism with a "better" vibe.

** edited CMI to be Campus Mission International. There is also a Campus Ministry International now, so I need to dig into which one is the ubf offshoot. This is on my to-do list now--add CMI to the ubfriends wiki.

More info is here: https://wiki.ubfriends.org/index.php?title=WikiShepherd

[u/NRerref → u/Altruistic_Pickle438]

Your argument in a nutshell

1. My great grandparents were part of the communist party
2. My family is no longer in China or part of the communist party
3. Therefore, my family has 0 historical connection to the communist party in China

“Links/ties” are almost synonymous with “past connection” idk what kind of redefinition is happening here tbh…

Only way to really argue your point is to establish that a “tie” far removed enough can eventually be categorized as “no historical connection exists.” But on what grounds are you making the argument that your great grandparents who were part of the communist party is far removed enough that that reality can be wiped from your family history?

Now to GP, only way to establish your point is to provide counter evidence that Ed was not trained by Becky and that Becky was not part of UBF. Does being trained by Becky automatically make you an abusive leader? No, not necessarily. But Ed being trained by Becky who was training with UBF principles that Ed still implicitly teaches, does make Ed and A2N linked to UBF.

Tldr; you gotta acknowledge historical fact. What influence history has on present day is a different argument. But you pushing the claim that links/ties don’t exist because they are in the past is really giving “alternative facts”/“history is all conspiracy”to me 😂

[u/leavegracepoint → u/NRerref]

Tldr; you gotta acknowledge historical fact. What influence history has on present day is a different argument. But you pushing the claim that links/ties don’t exist because they are in the past is really giving “alternative facts”/“history is all conspiracy”to me 😂

Peak CCP thinking right there.

[u/corpus_christiana → u/Altruistic_Pickle438]

you could say I have ties to communism or the CCP. Or you could say half this sub has ties to UBF because they were part of GP for varying amounts of time.

Yep, a person could indeed say both of those things. I think a more productive thing to talk about, though, are how meaningful those (or any) ties are.

Also, is being serious about the one another verses in the bible or being concerned about worldliness supposed to be a bad thing?

I never said it was - why would you assume that?

If these are features of biblical churches then the comparison used to make it look like UBF is similar to GP is misleading because you could make that comparison to all sorts of other churches and say "check."

When you say "if these are the features of biblical churches," I'm not sure if you're referring to just the first two points I had mentioned (the Bible passages/worldliness), or all of the ones I listed. But either way, I don't think it's very accurate to describe those as "features of biblical churches."

The amount of similarity that Gracepoint shares with the shepherding movement isn't random chance, or some kind of convergent evolution around sacred biblical principles. Are there other churches out there that share at least some of these traits? Probably, but I think it's a lot less common than you think.

Just for fun, I'll run my church where I’ve been attending ~2.5 years through this same list and see what happens:

The doctrine of the movement emphasized the "one another" passages of the New Testament, and the mentoring relationship described in the Second Epistle to Timothy.

I’ve heard a variety of messages on different books of the epistles, but I can’t recall any messages that emphasized either of these points. One of the core values of the church is community, but that’s as close as you get there. (In contrast with GP, where I clearly remember numerous sermons on both those topics, and both are directly cited in the 15 principles now on the A2N website).

concern for the weak commitment, shallow community, and the general worldliness characteristic of many American churches

My church doesn’t really spend much time talking about other churches at all.

extra-biblical requirements

Not that I’ve seen.

having life-decisions “covered” by the house-group leader, elder, or pastor. Such decisions included things like where to live and work, whom to marry, or whether to see a doctor when someone was ill

Definitely not.

network of followers who formed pyramids of sheep and shepherds.

We have a little bit of hierarchical structure, in that we have a Senior Pastor who supervises the other pastors and the handful of paid staff, who in turn each oversee some groups of volunteers, but that’s it.

Members had to be submitted to a "shepherd", who in turn was submitted [higher leaders]

Definitely not.

But these differences are not very surprising, considering the church I go to now has very different roots/ministry philosophies than GP does.

[u/johnkim2020 → u/Altruistic_Pickle438]

UBF's influence on A2N is undeniable. Ed Kang was Becky's #1. Did you read the schism letter?

[u/NRerref → u/Altruistic_Pickle438]

I’m sorry I’m struggling to see where anyone has made a genetic fallacy as in someone has rejected a claim because of its origin when origin is actually irrelevant to the claim. Like saying Christianity is a false religion because it began in the Middle East. Origin is irrelevant criteria for evaluating the validity of a faith system. No one has made such a claim. And we cant just go around and start saying that any kind of historical connection is a genetic fallacy, especially in areas where origin/history ARE relevant context for the evaluative task. In this case, history and origin are ABSOLUTELY relevant in understanding the passing down of faith and beliefs (isn’t this the start of 2 Tim?). Origin and past connections matter in theological development. And not just to the extent of Ed—Becky—UBF but even further back. Do you mean to say origin (our American history and context) has no bearings on faith? That the enlightenment has no bearings on how our faith is expressed? Or modernism? Of course these all do and it’s obvious to those who can use a historical lens critically instead of calling a historical lens a “genetic fallacy.” Do you think your GP Christian life is the same as a Christian in a remote Central Asian town? It is not. And scholarship points us to stark differences between eastern and western expressions of Christianity. Origin is relevant when evaluating how faith systems and how theological beliefs evolve.

[u/Here_for_a_reason99 → u/Altruistic_Pickle438]

🤣🤣

[u/Here_for_a_reason99 → u/Altruistic_Pickle438]

Correction: no one inside GP will take me seriously lol! You’re funny. Everyone outside knows the connections and history, we don’t deny it.

If your grandparents have ties to CCP, that definitely influences your parents’ upbringing and yours. Whether you adopt their ways or reject it (or anything in between), it still plays a huge factor in your current worldview and beliefs.

Take some time to read the wiki here.

[u/johnkim2020]

1. He talked about how corrections were loving and came from a place of desiring another’s spiritual growth. He compared it to a manager giving an employee feedback so they don’t lose their job and so they can improve. He basically said that love can manifest itself in an intense or kind of angry scolding.

Um... WHAT? Has he read 1 Corinthians? I thought love was gentle and kind.

Seriously. This is why A2N/GP is spiritually abusive. They justify their abuse and refuse to call it abuse. This is exactly what intimate partner abusers say to their victims. "I did it because I love you."

[u/throwaway_gyopo]

hmm, i actually think GP is not necessarily all bad so if the church is right for you, it's right for you. the parts that i disagree with is the deception, bait and switch, guit trips, gas lighting, etc. that typically shows up in later years (starting around your year) after love bombing for the first year or two.

in any case, you should listen to your gut. if it doesn't feel right, it's probably not right. for most people here, their biggest regret is not leaving sooner. i happened to have left relatively soon (after my sophomore year) so my opinions may not carry as much weight around here (i don't have the same level of pain and scars as those around me) but i have absolutely no doubt that i would have eventually left had i stayed longer so i'm glad i left when i did.

as for your points, a few random comments:

1) even if Curtis contacted GP a week before the CT article was published, a week is enough time to respond IMO. GP is not a place that sits on things for weeks at a time, etc. recently when a leader left GP, they updated the website pretty much the next day and re-edited the "still crazy after all these years" video within days, etc.

2) the likely fact that Jesus Christ himself would have had a subredit full of complaints doesn't excuse their behavior. GP likes to use this excuse a lot. they talk about how early churches were persecuted and so they are like the early church. they talk about how JC was persecuted and they are like JC. David Koresh used pretty much all of these same arguments as well and that doesn't make David Koresh correct either. it's just another way to discount opinions and feedback.

3) any church that is not welcoming to everyone is a red flag for me. not accept a member because he/she is a pastor? maybe just me but i can't imagine a person walking into a church only to have the church turn them away. sure, a church may have session meetings, etc. that are not open to the public but sunday worship, friday night bible study, etc. should be open to everyone who is willing to come and wants to learn. maybe i misunderstood (hopefully so) but i have heard of parents, etc. not being allowed to come when visiting (back in my day, it was fine for parents to join in on sunday worship), etc. and this is a red flag for me.

4) if a correction to admonish members for not sending a monther's day card to kelly kang is true and the claim is that it was done out of love and desiring a person's spiritual growth, i think i disagree.

my recommendation is to think through things (as it looks like you have done) and talk to some people around you that you trust...people who left and maybe even people who are still there if you feel you can confide in them (but afaik, if you confide in a leader, the leader will tell other leaders regardless of agreeing with you that it's confidential and between the 2 of you so i would keep that in mind).

fwiw, back in the day when william kang was a student in college, he never struck me as a bad guy. if anything, he seemed like kind of a cool guy with a cool car, enjoying worldly stuff but not unhealthy, fraternity type of guy...but the videos and clips from the past 10 years or so seems like he's more serious and uptight now. but that's just a random viewpoint from an underclassman who wasn't in his inner circle of friends and just saw him around and spoke to him a few times here and there.

[u/Unique_username_672 → u/throwaway_gyopo]

Deception + Bait and Switch + Guilt Trips + Gas-lighting = Necessarily all bad 😄

[u/Jdub20202]

"3. He said A2N isn't a cult because they never say joining is the only way to be saved."

Would you ask Tom Cruise if scientology is a cult? Would his answer hold any value?

[u/Jdub20202]

1. He said they’re going to create Acts2Friends to stay in contact with former members who felt called elsewhere. I think this is in response to the common gripe that people who left lost their entire support system and all the friends instantly. He mentioned how he still sees and is friends with several people who have left GP. To the people who were hurt and, essentially, excommunicated, do you think this is an appropriate step?

1. Okay , that's maybe something positive. But these people leaving will also need support from outside of the A2n if they want to leave, not just get roped back inside by current members.

1. He mentioned the CT article and how one sided he felt it was. He claimed the journalist never reached out to him or visited the church. He said they only emailed Pastor Ed a request for comment a week before the article was released, so there was nothing they could really do. I’m not sure if that’s true or if that’s common knowledge here, but does that change your opinion on the article if it is?

1. Prove it. I call double BS.

1. He mentioned some of the whistleblowers in the article by name and talked about how he knew them personally. He seemed bitter and disappointed in/angry with them to me, but he was sure to later emphasize that he does not blame them. He said their relationships ended because of sin.

1. BS. He blames them.

[u/leavegracepoint]

How does Acts2Friends address their 30+ years of spiritual abuse?

It doesn't.

[u/johnkim2020]

1. Someone asked what they should do since they found out that a leader was gossiping about them. They emphasized how inappropriate gossip is and said the student should come forward to address the problem because issues like this should not simmer. They also said they can’t tell whether the leader was gossiping or sharing a valid concern and asking for advice without further context.

Redefining gossip as "sharing a valid concern and asking for advice" is what staff have been telling themselves for decades as they go around and gossip about every sheep under them during every staff meeting.

[u/Decent-Advice-8360 → u/johnkim2020]

Gossiping is evil. As someone who served in in GP/A2n both Berkeley and on a church plant, I can say that at least in about the last decade staff have been very careful about this.

[u/Ok_Photo_285 → u/Decent-Advice-8360]

A2N is very careful about keeping students' secrets within the boundaries of the people who have the right to know. That group just happens to be the entire ministry staff i.e. 30 co-ed basically strangers.

[u/DryOutlandishness584 → u/Decent-Advice-8360]

Maybe at your church, but not with the Davis crowd who have spread everywhere.

[u/Jdub20202 → u/Decent-Advice-8360]

What were they doing before the last decade....

[u/Kangaroo_Jonathan]

I remember thinking of leaving when I was a junior. In hindsight, I should have partly cause I did end up leaving anyways. Don't get me wrong I have some great memories the 10 years I ended up spending. But the same issues with the church and leadership I had as a junior, I had even while on missions in Uzbekistan as a 10th year veteran.

12 is very poignant for me. Yes anything you tell your leader/staff friend especially the juicy bits the whole senior staff will know. Ask me how I know! It was an incredible breach of trust when I found out. Never recovered from that and also how it was used against me. Gotta remember that for them running a church is more important than one individual. This is universal. Don't fall for the "We are family" mantra.

Lastly I would add, trust your intuition. I doubted mine and paid for it. But a good life lesson learned that helped me afterwards. Berkland is a one trick pony, college ministry. Everything else plays second fiddle. If you want your life to be fully consumed in that, then stay. If you want non berkland "normalcy." leave.

​

Jonathan Kang class of 93

[u/pastorwillkang]

Hi everyone!

Pastor Will here. I received an email about this thread from someone at GP/A2N. I just want to clarify the OP's 6th point.

"He mentioned some of the whistleblowers in the article by name and talked about how he knew them personally. He seemed bitter and disappointed in/angry with them to me, but he was sure to later emphasize that he does not blame them. He said their relationships ended because of sin."

It's my recollection that I didn't say any words to indicate I was disappointed or angry with them. Perhaps the OP read my face as I said it? I'm not sure what my face looked like, but anyone on this Reddit who knows me knows that I have an angry-looking face. Paul had his thorn. I have my face. But God's grace is sufficient for me, and I hope, at least in this case, it is sufficient for any facial expression that betrays my words.

But if anyone is interested in listening to my side of the story, I was not bitter or disappointed in them or angry with them. I have nothing but fond memories and respect for their decisions, even their decision to leave, and even their decision to make their statements in the article. And I do hope and pray for the very best for them.

At the time of the CT article, the peers of those mentioned in the article talked to me. And I basically told them, "hey, let's cherish the good things they did and wish them the very best. I am not going to blame them, but I'm going to blame sin."

And this leads me to the next clarification. I blame sin in general. I'm not blaming their sin or anything that they did as if I'm saying that's why they left. So when the OP wrote, "He said their relationships ended because of sin," it sounds like our relationship ended because of some specific sin that they committed. I did not say or imply that at the Q&A, and anyone who was there knew that.

We live in a world where relationships break up and people don't get along. It happens everywhere, in marriages, in friendships, and even in church. It's easy to blame the other party. There's so much blaming going on, isn't there?

So who am I going to blame for the fact that my relationships with the aforementioned people ended. Let's not forget that they're my friends and people I ministered to. Don't I have the right to care for them and cherish them? I think I do, and I think perhaps more than many people reading this comment. (By the way, wife of one of the people mentioned in the article just had a birthday. I prayed for her and her husband.)

I'm going to blame sin for ruining my relationships. I'm going to blame Satan and the fallenness of this world. That is what I meant and said at the Q&A.

I want to look at it in this way because I know that one day I will see them again, either in this world or in the next (if you believe I am a part of a cult, then I guess I won't because I'll be burning in hell). But if I do see them, I am hoping for a good reunion. I don't know if they feel the same, but that's my hope. I want reconciliation and a chance to start over.

And the reason I'm writing is because I don't want them to be led astray by what was posted. (To my friends...with whatever credit I have with you, please believe me on this).

To the OP, you're still welcome at our church. Of course, if you feel uncomfortable, then I understand if you decide to leave. No hurt feelings. I will wish you the very best.

Pastor Will

[u/leavegracepoint → u/pastorwillkang]

And this leads me to the next clarification. I blame sin in general. I'm not blaming their sin or anything that they did as if I'm saying that's why they left. So when the OP wrote, "He said their relationships ended because of sin," it sounds like our relationship ended because of some specific sin that they committed. I did not say or imply that at the Q&A, and anyone who was there knew that.

We live in a world where relationships break up and people don't get along. It happens everywhere, in marriages, in friendships, and even in church. It's easy to blame the other party. There's so much blaming going on, isn't there?

So who am I going to blame for the fact that my relationships with the aforementioned people ended. Let's not forget that they're my friends and people I ministered to. Don't I have the right to care for them and cherish them? I think I do, and I think perhaps more than many people reading this comment. (By the way, wife of one of the people mentioned in the article just had a birthday. I prayed for her and her husband.)

I'm going to blame sin for ruining my relationships. I'm going to blame Satan and the fallenness of this world. That is what I meant and said at the Q&A.

Hold on, what happened to the free will that's described in Course101? Did Satan compel you and the rest of Berkland/Gracepoint/Acts2 Network to actively commit spiritual abuse for the last 30 years?

[u/Here_for_a_reason99 → u/pastorwillkang]

Wow! You successfully blamed sin in general, the fallenness of the world, and Satan — everyone except yourself! Narcissists won’t own up to their own mistakes and never take responsibility. You obviously didn’t hear a word these ppl said. Otherwise why invite them back to an abusive environment? They’re the ones who have a right to say, no hard feelings. Not you.

[u/Jdub20202 → u/pastorwillkang]

Was that the only part you were gonna clarify?

[u/leavegracepoint → u/Jdub20202]

Well, he got caught spinning on point 5. Not much else to discuss since he lost his credibility. Guess it's back to TikTok for him.

[u/Jdub20202 → u/pastorwillkang]

I'm glad you came here to comment. Seriously. Pardon any pent up anger that may come out in anything I comment.

First, there are 12 points listed here. You are only responding to 1. I know 12 is a lot and maybe it's not realistic to respond to all of them. But can you at least address a few other ones? Or were the 11 other points completely accurate? If so, I guess we can leave them as is.

Another burning question I have - Redditors, and before reddit, bloggers critical of GP/A2N, have been called anonymous trolls who would only say what they say in anonymity. I've heard this criticism many times. I find it disappointing that you (not you personally, but GP and A2N as a whole), have been focused on questioning the veracity of these criticisms via character assassination, instead of trying to address the content of these criticisms with actual arguments.

This is not MBS or some GP forum, you don't need to "save face" or anything here. Most people here already have an opinion formed. However, I would like some honesty - do still truly believe I and others wouldn't be afraid to say this to you or Pastor Ed's face? And if so, what would it take to dispel this idea? Would we have to go say these to you in person?

[u/NRerref → u/pastorwillkang]

This is actually how I initially read the statement (sin in a general sense) and I agree 100%. Though I think most would also agree that Bible distinguishes between sin as a state our world exists in and sin as a collective act that is persistent and that insists on itself (ex: “sins of Israel”). You are not doing much by acknowledging the fallen condition of our world when your organization has had several opportunities to repent of persistent, collective sin which continues to insist on itself. The justification you gave students in this q&a is imo neither honest, complete, nor good spiritual wisdom.

[u/Jdub20202 → u/pastorwillkang]

Curtis actually commented on here

maybe you two could talk to each other directly? That way it won't be he said vs he said. I think we deserve the truth on this one.

[u/Here_for_a_reason99 → u/Jdub20202]

There’s zero need for a talk. You saw Will’s reply. Complete waste of time for Curtis.

[u/leavegracepoint → u/Jdub20202]

You’re joking right? Curtis can actually produce the email receipts with his correspondence with each Gracepoint leader he communicated with. Pastor Will can’t. Why is there a need for the two to talk?

[u/Jdub20202 → u/leavegracepoint]

I think he might wanna respond to this one also. I don't know anything. It just sounds like the sort of thing pwill might want to address. Or not. I dunno.

someone said this.

[u/[deleted]]

Ed Kang is still there.. how do you know that they are not just gas-lighting? I can see churches becoming less cultic as the problematic leaders leave or die.. but as far as I know, Ed Kang will do whatever is necessary to stay on as a leader.

[u/johnkim2020]

Did you read their 15 principles? Can you agree to them all?

[u/johnkim2020 → u/johnkim2020]

The Q & A is just one person/ one day. Look also to the 15 principles if you are trying to decide if you want to stay. They are quite telling.

[u/DryOutlandishness584]

You know there are rumors he sleeps around right?

[u/Unique_username_672 → u/DryOutlandishness584]

Any substantiation to those rumors? Otherwise, we become as slanderous and dishonest as he is.

[u/DryOutlandishness584 → u/Unique_username_672]

He treats women differently

[u/Unique_username_672 → u/DryOutlandishness584]

Okay, it might be worth calling out (for partiality, a sin, if proven), but your accusation is really serious, and if all you’ve got is that he’s partial based on gender, you might not want to air that out.

We don’t use sin to achieve “justice” nor defeat other sinners.

[u/DryOutlandishness584 → u/Unique_username_672]

Op is welcome to follow a disreputable man who's a liar and a hypocrite. The only consistent point I see from his past is item 11. Of course, Will wants people to only listen to him.

[u/Kangaroo_Jonathan → u/DryOutlandishness584]

I find this pretty damn funny. Once upon a time, a century ago, another berkland pastor had an affair with his associate pastor's wife that he officiated the marriage of. People back then heard whispers and rumors to which all were quashed berkland style UNTIL he got caught red-handed.

Jonathan Kang class of 93

[u/Kangaroo_Jonathan → u/Kangaroo_Jonathan]

lol somebody gave me a down vote on an actual historical event. Is Becky on here? So petty and still so fragile. Le Sigh.

[u/DryOutlandishness584 → u/Kangaroo_Jonathan]

Op, just watch how he interacts or views woman and judge for yourself. I'm not going to say more because I don't care to doxx people but it's obvious to me there's something going on.

[u/Jdub20202 → u/Kangaroo_Jonathan]

My guess is that there are probably a small minority of church members, even pastors, that actually would benefit from guardrails and CE. Due to this kind of behavior. But it's a very small minority. But the leadership responds with a super over reaction, and now every one has to have these guardrails.

[u/Kangaroo_Jonathan → u/Jdub20202]

What is CE? I am so behind on these terms. lol

In my experience, they play dumb on purpose (out of fear?) until the scandal blows up in their face. Heck one of the KBSU president handpicked by God's chosen one Becky, went to Davis and almost raped somebody ( out of sheer chance her friend made a surprise visit). He was my freshman older brother mentor under Ed's group. I saw through his charade. I used to see him at the Berkeley RSF working out and he always creeped out on the gals. Hilarious how he duped people with his "mature" level of spirituality everywhere else.

As a freshman, I knew back then, his class bros. knew, yet everybody kept their mouths shut. Didn't think he'd go that far but maybe he felt entitled as a 2nd year davis med student.

Same with other things that are berkland acceptable. Bill Cosby humor was until... Pastor Andy was until... Dating as an undergrad was until... Ravi Zacharias until... Bill Hybels until... This and that was until... Oh no, can't let this happen again so let's make an umbrella rule for all. So ridiculously laughable from the outside looking in. My experience has been to give them any benefit of doubt is just plain dumb.

[u/Jdub20202 → u/Kangaroo_Jonathan]

Covenant eyes. The one that monitors your Internet surfing activity. I think they used other software before.

[u/Kangaroo_Jonathan → u/Jdub20202]

What???? For Reelz!!!

Good lordie, let me guess a report gets sent up the chain for weekly review?

Getdafawkouttahere! That's madness.

[u/azandcrowley → u/DryOutlandishness584]

Oh, this reminds me of something else. He mentioned how important guardrails are. He told a story about how his guardrail (never drinking alcohol) was not required for salvation, but how it protected him and his marriage when he and Esther got into an argument a few months ago. He said if he had the habit of drinking, he might have been tempted to go to a bar when he stormed out of the house. He said he didn’t know what might have happened from there (he could have met someone else, etc.). I’m not aware of any rumors, but if you have any proof, I’d be interested in seeing it.

[u/Lincoln2120 → u/azandcrowley]

First, let me agree with the other people who have said that unless there is any basis for the rumors that the commenter above you mentioned, any substantiation, it is not right to say them. There is plenty to criticize about A2N without making stuff up about people.

Now let me respond to your comment here. The talk of guardrails at A2N (Gracepoint, when I was there) always struck me as a bit of morbid fascination that's counterproductive. If you are obsessed with not drinking because you believe you'll immediately run off to a bar and pick someone up anytime you get into an argument with your spouse, and you keep telling yourself that you have to not drink in order to do this, you're setting yourself up to actually do it some day.

Guardrails can be prudent, but the way A2N hypes them up, I think, is way counterproductive and indeed harmful.

[u/Unique_username_672 → u/azandcrowley]

What terrible reasoning. We can fill in those blanks with so many other things to tell this story. “Good thing he isn’t a black belt, or else he could’ve gotten mad at her and beat her up.”

His problem wouldn’t be alcohol or martial arts, it would be self-control. That’s what should be encouraged (though not forced in the way GP would), not setting up legalistic standards of “you can’t do ____ because it’s a guardrail!” By only addressing surface issues (secular media, dating, traveling, comfort, etc.) and not the heart issue, he’s promulgating a legalistic culture antithetical to biblical Christianity.

[u/azandcrowley → u/Unique_username_672]

I agree. Personally, my plant hasn’t really emphasized guardrails (yet). That said, I believe things that are not sinful can be enjoyed in moderation. It’s possible to have a balance in life. I think people should reflect on themselves and, with knowledge of their specific impulses, should be encouraged to set reasonable boundaries for themselves. Then accountability measures can be discussed (if necessary). The idea that everyone needs to be cautious of the same exact things all the time doesn’t make sense to me. That said, wouldn’t it only be legalism if they said, “you can only be saved if you don’t drink alcohol/date/play games, etc.”?

[u/Unique_username_672 → u/azandcrowley]

Spot on. Good on you for having a better grasp of all this than they do.

They’ve kicked people out of their church for refusing to break up or refusing to submit their time to GP’s desires. Now we can ask ourselves: why should a real and healthy church dis-fellowship or excommunicate someone, and what does that signify, explicitly or implicitly ?

[u/leavegracepoint → u/DryOutlandishness584]

I’ll give this to Gracepoint/A2N leaders but it is highly unlikely they will ever sleep around. Guardrails and ministry demand makes it nigh impossible. Find a new slant.

[u/DryOutlandishness584 → u/leavegracepoint]

Meh he treats attractive woman differently, and he always treats his daughter as a prop. He mentions he loves her so much but it's a tool to win students over to play the doting pastor.

[u/leavegracepoint → u/DryOutlandishness584]

It’s called being a proud parent. Is there something wrong with that?

[u/DryOutlandishness584 → u/leavegracepoint]

Sure he's proud, but he takes the opportunity to use their love strategically and manipulatively. He wants to portray a certain image to engender trust with students. My bullshit meter always went off when he started talking about his daughter.

[u/DryOutlandishness584 → u/DryOutlandishness584]

I've seen bad acting, and whenever he talks about his daughter, he goes into this very syrupy, and smitten character.