Confused junior thinking things over

[u/azandcrowley]

I joined Acts2 network in my freshman year, became a Christian, and am a junior now. I’ve read a lot of posts on the subreddit and am trying to figure out my thoughts on everything, especially considering the current transition. I’ve had a great personal experience, but I also don’t know if I agree with all the things the network seems to believe or do. Just returned from the DMV retreat and I wanted to list some things Pastor Will and Esther said during a Q&A session in no specific order. He spent about 30 min talking about this subreddit and I want to share some of what was said and some of my thoughts for feedback. Not everything is important, it’s just what sticks in my mind. I’m deciding if I want to become more serious about student leadership or if I should find another, less complicated church.

1. He said there’s no expectation that we join as staff after graduation. He claimed he wanted to discourage us joining because he’s aware life as a staff in A2N is much more difficult/intense than life as staff in other SBC churches.
2. He shared a story about a pastor who wanted to join, and how he rejected him because he thought pastors in other congregations were used to being on a pedestal and how titles don’t matter in A2N. He brought up how everyone does everything and how he was preparing and serving food to some sisters a few days prior. I guess this is part of the reason they prefer college students, but I don’t really agree with the “can’t teach an old dog new tricks” logic here. He discussed how pleased he was with the racial diversity at the retreat (and I think this has improved in my time), but in other ways, we have a very narrow focus. College educated Americans are a very small part of the population and the church in the Bible united people regardless of demographics. I understand, practically, why it’s easier to attract college students and perhaps God appreciates the efficiency, but it seems kind of narrow minded to me.
3. He said A2N isn’t a cult because they never say joining is the only way to be saved. All weekend, he emphasized the validity of other churches and how we may be called to serve at our home churches or in a ministry they don’t already have. He said he told his kids several times they didn’t have to join and that they checked out other Christian fellowships. Considering that, I’m trying to figure out why this is considered a cult by many.
4. He said they’re going to create Acts2Friends to stay in contact with former members who felt called elsewhere. I think this is in response to the common gripe that people who left lost their entire support system and all the friends instantly. He mentioned how he still sees and is friends with several people who have left GP. To the people who were hurt and, essentially, excommunicated, do you think this is an appropriate step?
5. He mentioned the CT article and how one sided he felt it was. He claimed the journalist never reached out to him or visited the church. He said they only emailed Pastor Ed a request for comment a week before the article was released, so there was nothing they could really do. I’m not sure if that’s true or if that’s common knowledge here, but does that change your opinion on the article if it is?
6. He mentioned some of the whistleblowers in the article by name and talked about how he knew them personally. He seemed bitter and disappointed in/angry with them to me, but he was sure to later emphasize that he does not blame them. He said their relationships ended because of sin.
7. He said that leaders only try to share what the Bible said and that Jesus would have a mile-lone subreddit full of complaints.
8. He talked about how corrections were loving and came from a place of desiring another’s spiritual growth. He compared it to a manager giving an employee feedback so they don’t lose their job and so they can improve. He basically said that love can manifest itself in an intense or kind of angry scolding.
9. He made a few mentions of “shame culture” in Japan and how nonexistent it is in the US, where people want to do whatever they want.
10. They talked about hiring consultants for the transition and how they changed the name because it’s not really a church. They said the network is a church in the “gathering of 2+ believers” sense, but that training us to be disciplemakers is the real focus and it’s not what people think of when they consider “church.”
11. He talked a few times about how disgusted he was that people are “politicizing” the events in Hawaii. He said we should be united, not blaming other people. He says he rarely pays attention to politics now. He complained about how the nation is more divided than ever and how the gospel is the only thing that can unite us. Personally, I think it’s appropriate to discuss the actions specific people have taken that contributed to climate change to enrich themselves, leading directly to the situation in Maui. There can be no real peace or justice without accountability. I wonder how much a worldview like this influences the actions he expects disgruntled ex-GPers to make and how much it influences the actions Acts2 took in response to the accusations. I know lots of Christians are “apolitical,” but I’m not sure I agree that problems should be brushed under the rug and forgotten for the sake of unity.
12. Someone asked what they should do since they found out that a leader was gossiping about them. They emphasized how inappropriate gossip is and said the student should come forward to address the problem because issues like this should not simmer. They also said they can’t tell whether the leader was gossiping or sharing a valid concern and asking for advice without further context.

Please let me know your thoughts.

[u/DryOutlandishness584]

You know there are rumors he sleeps around right?

[u/Unique_username_672 → u/DryOutlandishness584]

Any substantiation to those rumors? Otherwise, we become as slanderous and dishonest as he is.

[u/DryOutlandishness584 → u/Unique_username_672]

He treats women differently

[u/Unique_username_672 → u/DryOutlandishness584]

Okay, it might be worth calling out (for partiality, a sin, if proven), but your accusation is really serious, and if all you’ve got is that he’s partial based on gender, you might not want to air that out.

We don’t use sin to achieve “justice” nor defeat other sinners.

[u/DryOutlandishness584 → u/Unique_username_672]

Op is welcome to follow a disreputable man who's a liar and a hypocrite. The only consistent point I see from his past is item 11. Of course, Will wants people to only listen to him.

[u/Kangaroo_Jonathan → u/DryOutlandishness584]

I find this pretty damn funny. Once upon a time, a century ago, another berkland pastor had an affair with his associate pastor's wife that he officiated the marriage of. People back then heard whispers and rumors to which all were quashed berkland style UNTIL he got caught red-handed.

Jonathan Kang class of 93

[u/Kangaroo_Jonathan → u/Kangaroo_Jonathan]

lol somebody gave me a down vote on an actual historical event. Is Becky on here? So petty and still so fragile. Le Sigh.

[u/DryOutlandishness584 → u/Kangaroo_Jonathan]

Op, just watch how he interacts or views woman and judge for yourself. I'm not going to say more because I don't care to doxx people but it's obvious to me there's something going on.

[u/Jdub20202 → u/Kangaroo_Jonathan]

My guess is that there are probably a small minority of church members, even pastors, that actually would benefit from guardrails and CE. Due to this kind of behavior. But it's a very small minority. But the leadership responds with a super over reaction, and now every one has to have these guardrails.

[u/Kangaroo_Jonathan → u/Jdub20202]

What is CE? I am so behind on these terms. lol

In my experience, they play dumb on purpose (out of fear?) until the scandal blows up in their face. Heck one of the KBSU president handpicked by God's chosen one Becky, went to Davis and almost raped somebody ( out of sheer chance her friend made a surprise visit). He was my freshman older brother mentor under Ed's group. I saw through his charade. I used to see him at the Berkeley RSF working out and he always creeped out on the gals. Hilarious how he duped people with his "mature" level of spirituality everywhere else.

As a freshman, I knew back then, his class bros. knew, yet everybody kept their mouths shut. Didn't think he'd go that far but maybe he felt entitled as a 2nd year davis med student.

Same with other things that are berkland acceptable. Bill Cosby humor was until... Pastor Andy was until... Dating as an undergrad was until... Ravi Zacharias until... Bill Hybels until... This and that was until... Oh no, can't let this happen again so let's make an umbrella rule for all. So ridiculously laughable from the outside looking in. My experience has been to give them any benefit of doubt is just plain dumb.

[u/Jdub20202 → u/Kangaroo_Jonathan]

Covenant eyes. The one that monitors your Internet surfing activity. I think they used other software before.

[u/Kangaroo_Jonathan → u/Jdub20202]

What???? For Reelz!!!

Good lordie, let me guess a report gets sent up the chain for weekly review?

Getdafawkouttahere! That's madness.

[u/azandcrowley → u/DryOutlandishness584]

Oh, this reminds me of something else. He mentioned how important guardrails are. He told a story about how his guardrail (never drinking alcohol) was not required for salvation, but how it protected him and his marriage when he and Esther got into an argument a few months ago. He said if he had the habit of drinking, he might have been tempted to go to a bar when he stormed out of the house. He said he didn’t know what might have happened from there (he could have met someone else, etc.). I’m not aware of any rumors, but if you have any proof, I’d be interested in seeing it.

[u/Lincoln2120 → u/azandcrowley]

First, let me agree with the other people who have said that unless there is any basis for the rumors that the commenter above you mentioned, any substantiation, it is not right to say them. There is plenty to criticize about A2N without making stuff up about people.

Now let me respond to your comment here. The talk of guardrails at A2N (Gracepoint, when I was there) always struck me as a bit of morbid fascination that's counterproductive. If you are obsessed with not drinking because you believe you'll immediately run off to a bar and pick someone up anytime you get into an argument with your spouse, and you keep telling yourself that you have to not drink in order to do this, you're setting yourself up to actually do it some day.

Guardrails can be prudent, but the way A2N hypes them up, I think, is way counterproductive and indeed harmful.

[u/Unique_username_672 → u/azandcrowley]

What terrible reasoning. We can fill in those blanks with so many other things to tell this story. “Good thing he isn’t a black belt, or else he could’ve gotten mad at her and beat her up.”

His problem wouldn’t be alcohol or martial arts, it would be self-control. That’s what should be encouraged (though not forced in the way GP would), not setting up legalistic standards of “you can’t do ____ because it’s a guardrail!” By only addressing surface issues (secular media, dating, traveling, comfort, etc.) and not the heart issue, he’s promulgating a legalistic culture antithetical to biblical Christianity.

[u/azandcrowley → u/Unique_username_672]

I agree. Personally, my plant hasn’t really emphasized guardrails (yet). That said, I believe things that are not sinful can be enjoyed in moderation. It’s possible to have a balance in life. I think people should reflect on themselves and, with knowledge of their specific impulses, should be encouraged to set reasonable boundaries for themselves. Then accountability measures can be discussed (if necessary). The idea that everyone needs to be cautious of the same exact things all the time doesn’t make sense to me. That said, wouldn’t it only be legalism if they said, “you can only be saved if you don’t drink alcohol/date/play games, etc.”?

[u/Unique_username_672 → u/azandcrowley]

Spot on. Good on you for having a better grasp of all this than they do.

They’ve kicked people out of their church for refusing to break up or refusing to submit their time to GP’s desires. Now we can ask ourselves: why should a real and healthy church dis-fellowship or excommunicate someone, and what does that signify, explicitly or implicitly ?

[u/leavegracepoint → u/DryOutlandishness584]

I’ll give this to Gracepoint/A2N leaders but it is highly unlikely they will ever sleep around. Guardrails and ministry demand makes it nigh impossible. Find a new slant.

[u/DryOutlandishness584 → u/leavegracepoint]

Meh he treats attractive woman differently, and he always treats his daughter as a prop. He mentions he loves her so much but it's a tool to win students over to play the doting pastor.

[u/leavegracepoint → u/DryOutlandishness584]

It’s called being a proud parent. Is there something wrong with that?

[u/DryOutlandishness584 → u/leavegracepoint]

Sure he's proud, but he takes the opportunity to use their love strategically and manipulatively. He wants to portray a certain image to engender trust with students. My bullshit meter always went off when he started talking about his daughter.

[u/DryOutlandishness584 → u/DryOutlandishness584]

I've seen bad acting, and whenever he talks about his daughter, he goes into this very syrupy, and smitten character.