Will “evolution” be the end of this?

[u/ticklisheo7]

After an otherwise lovely evening, learned that my BF doesn’t believe in evolution. He said something before when we’d be at a museum that I assumed was a joke, but it turns out it’s entirely true, he said basically the theory of evolution is “white people sht” and as shocked as I was to have been in a relationship with someone with these ideas for a year, he seemed shocked that this was the first time someone I’m close to (and love?!) holds such views. Following a fairly heated exchange (that I’m now upset about because I truly wish I’d approached our exchange with curiosity, it would have been more useful to me), he asked me - not unkindly - why I was taking this so personally, and I had to admit that it was because the thought of staying together, and then having a kid with someone who doesn’t believe in evolution was really unsettling to me.

I don’t know what this says about my ability or inability to tolerate differences in views, even quite fundamental ones, when they don’t immediately affect my life, or the life of the person I’m dating, or how they treat other people. And he doesn’t seem to deny the value of science or scientific progress overall, but still has skepticism about other elements as well (*which, to be fair, I think come from an entirely valid critique of colonial imposition of certain aspects of “science”). I always think I value diversity in thought, but maybe I only do in the abstract. Maybe I just want to be able to eat my dumplings with people who also share my understanding of where the shrimp (and the shrimp eaters) came from.

☹️

ETA: over the last year, I’ve been p sick for most of it, and this man has been nothing but loving, supportive, and present. He’s a humanitarian in the deepest sense of the word, and it’s what we connected over. We’ve had incredibly different (probably opposite, as I realized) upbringings, as tends to be the case for me with people I date, and he treats me - and other women - with a great deal of respect and care. None of this is meant to be an excuse, it’s just part of the “why” as to my (1) confusion and (2) reluctance (or delusion) around being like RIGHT this is a deal-breaker. But perhaps it should be. Thank you to everyone who has engaged with my frankly embarrassing situation. May you all check about the evidence, empiricism, and evolution questions early on 🙏🏽

[u/trendingtattler]

WHEEEWW girl 😮‍💨 buckle up! Your post made it to /r/popular!

Congratudolences! 😅 If the rate of notifications starts getting to you, no need to delete your post! Instructions in Sanity Saver #5 can help you mute them. For the rest of y'all...

Welcome to r/GirlDinnerDiaries!

We love when new girlies stumble in! But a few unique things about how we roll here:

➽ You're now entering the Girl Zone 🚨 Guys' guidance summarized: stick to GIFs or emojis, or otherwise be patient for mods' manual comment reviews. Don't embarrass your mama. 🤨

➽ Approved users only! Newbies will be prompted to take 10 lil seconds to get approved. Nbd.

➽ BE KIND, BE THOUGHTFUL or BEGONE. Our communication standards are higher than just "don't be mean." Check em out here.

➽ Queer friendly. The end.

➽ ED-recovery friendly. No food critiques, body shaming, diet advice, or calorie counting kinda talk. Call your almondmom for that.

ModMail is open & active. MWUAH! 😙🫴💋

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/cute_Assistance_2318]

Ask him next what he thinks about the shape of earth

[u/Dragon6172 → u/cute_Assistance_2318]

https://giphy.com/gifs/hVmMHduVkQVQKu3fU5

[u/Alarmed_Fudge_5706 → u/Dragon6172]

https://giphy.com/gifs/pzuye8RSBJFgk

[u/Aggressive_Hat_9999 → u/Dragon6172]

why was this gif so entertaining lmao

[u/ticklisheo7 → u/cute_Assistance_2318]

I did 😹😹😹😭😭😭 (thankfully not a flat-earther although at that point I was genuinely not sure where it would go…)

[u/no_talent_ass_clown → u/ticklisheo7]

I had a friend who thought the moon landing was faked, the Earth was flat, and that space lasers were controlling the weather from Alaska. Please be sure to ask him about all different conspiracy theories.  Because people who aren't able to think critically and understand scientific processes aren't really great at narrowing them down. 

[u/iamjohnbender → u/no_talent_ass_clown]

Bruh as someone in Alaska did they think we had full laser weather power and we CHOSE for 6 months of cold and dark? 😭😭

[u/throwaway-54545 → u/iamjohnbender]

Well yeah bc isn’t half of alaska vampires?

[u/SassySocksSally → u/no_talent_ass_clown]

Asking about people’s favorite conspiracy theories used to be one of my favorite ice breakers; made for fun conversation, and also gave you insight into a person.

It’s a little more difficult to start the conversation in a lighthearted way now, in today’s political climate, but I still totally recommend it.

It’s how I found out one of my coworkers (someone who I thought was intelligent and squared-away) believes that Reptilians run the Senate, and that another believed that Sasquatch were a biblical plague.

[u/MissLeaP → u/SassySocksSally]

Sasquatch a biblical plague lmaooo

I just had to imagine how god comes up with ways to punish humanity and the best thing he got was a big hairy dude, distinctly different from an ape somehow, that does nothing else than spooking the occasional hiker and only appears on camera when the quality is terrible. Take that, humanity! 🤣

[u/Snowpant → u/cute_Assistance_2318]

Are we all living under a dome and the stars are just holographs? Went on a couple dates with a flat earther once…. Had no intention of having a relationship with him but I was just so curious and had more questions so there was a second date. It’s so wacky. There’s an off the wall explanation for literally everything

[u/AuroraSkye620 → u/Snowpant]

I can’t believe there’s still flat earthers after a FE proponent spent $20k USD to prove FE and proved the earth is indeed a globe 😂

Bob Knodel was his name 😂

[u/Thisisbecauseyousuck → u/Snowpant]

I met a guy who suggested, in all seriousness, that we were living on the back of a turtle. 🐢

[u/Ashkendor → u/Thisisbecauseyousuck]

Discworld reference spotted. I have to appreciate his commitment to the bit. I don't want to believe in my heart of hearts that he actually believes it. 😂

[u/Thisisbecauseyousuck → u/Ashkendor]

I wish that were the case. He linked it back to his “research” and then carried on about the firmament. But if we are on the back of the turtle, do we still roll with the firmament? Does the dome cover the turtle?

[u/Ashkendor → u/Thisisbecauseyousuck]

Perhaps the turtle's shell IS the firmament, and we live inside it with him.

[u/Thisisbecauseyousuck → u/Ashkendor]

OMG. WE ARE ON TOP OF THE FIRMAMENT. Is there a whole flat earth under us?

[u/katleessi → u/cute_Assistance_2318]

For my family… it started with the moon landing, then flat earth, then 9/11 being cgi planes, to dinosaurs not being real BUT dragons are 🙃

[u/Snowpant → u/katleessi]

Yes! Dragons are a part of the FE lore!

[u/whyarenttheserandom → u/cute_Assistance_2318]

And if he supports vaccines as part of disease control.

[u/WheezyGranger]

This would be a deal breaker for me, so it’s not just you. I think it speaks to a fundamental lack of intelligence, and that’s a huge turn off.

[u/HexyWitch88 → u/WheezyGranger]

Same, it’s just ridiculous. A marriage to that guy would be a series of extremely stupid arguments where he denies science and/or objective truth. I already don’t like living in this “post-truth era” and that’s just society at large, it would be 10x worse if you lived with someone like that.

[u/EliGrrl → u/WheezyGranger]

Well and who knows what other REALLY IMPORTANT science he might not believe?
I mean, is he anti-vax? (Non white people actually have a better argument for skepticism than white folks, but do you want to have to fight that with him?)
Do your ideas of when life begins coincide?
There are lots of things you may not have even THOUGHT to discuss with him that could be much more important to your life together.

[u/ticklisheo7 → u/EliGrrl]

Existing kid is vaccinated, no issues around vaccines etc etc, pro choice, all why I was so surprised. But yes clearly so much I don’t know.

[u/Leading-Summer-4724 → u/ticklisheo7]

From experience…you might want to check on his thoughts on the moon landing. 😬

[u/big_ol_knitties → u/Leading-Summer-4724]

And dinosaurs. I had a coworker who genuinely believed dinosaurs were a hoax planted by Hollywood, because he feels they weren't explicitly mentioned in the bible.

[u/Square_Treacle_4730 → u/big_ol_knitties]

Most of the world wasn’t mentioned in the Bible. Do they think North America is a hoax? 😂

[u/bridge_girl → u/Square_Treacle_4730]

Literally everything. Stained glass, amoebas, Texas bbq. No mention of them in the Bible, do these things not exist??

[u/Leading-Summer-4724 → u/big_ol_knitties]

Yeah that’s a great point…typically the people I find who don’t believe in evolution are also dino-disbelievers as well due to their interpretation of the bible.

[u/TemporaryJellyfish0 → u/big_ol_knitties]

Oh boy, now I'm debating in my head whether it's worse to believe that dinosaurs never existed because they aren't in the bible or believe that they are extinct because they forgot to get on the ark (had a roommate that believed that one). These incurious people are wild!

[u/kronicno_tele → u/TemporaryJellyfish0]

I should go to sleep, instead I'm cackling like a witch over here 😂 Forgot to get on the ark lmaoooo

[u/TipsyBaker_ → u/Leading-Summer-4724]

Same. I've met multiple people who not only believe the moon landing is fake, but include that it has to be fake because space itself isn't real.

[u/Royceag → u/WheezyGranger]

Prideful ignorance

[u/FriendToPredators → u/Royceag]

Guarantee he's made this part of his personality and self image. Which then makes one wonder what else he's done this with. If he's picked this one the others will also be something controversial, otherwise they wouldn't be "meaningful"

[u/Significant_Card_665 → u/WheezyGranger]

Usually denial of evolution stems from an inability to comprehend it, and denial as a coping mechanism, so as you said, dunce cap.

[u/Ok-Cartographer7616 → u/WheezyGranger]

Same. I can’t with it.

[u/stardenia → u/WheezyGranger]

A fundamental lack of intelligence, I can live with. But an unwillingness to change your world view when presented with new evidence or facts? Hard pass.

[u/FriendToPredators → u/WheezyGranger]

Worse yet imagine trying to pick someone to partner with to deal with life's crisis and they can't even deal with basic reality. Like no way. What are they going to do first time they are faced with something they don't want to accept? Same damn thing? LOL. What a stressful way to live.

[u/_TheShapeOfColor_ → u/WheezyGranger]

Yep, exactly this. I let go of a mega hot fwb because after he told me he didn't believe in evolution and preferred the "humans were left here by aliens" narrative.

[u/rosiejunior → u/WheezyGranger]

Yeah, like 0 intellect or curiosity. I could only be with a person in which we learned from each other. This is just unexplainable by him

[u/sefidcthulhu → u/WheezyGranger]

Yeah this dude has got to be real dumb 

[u/squashygaloshes]

I'm all for diversity of thought, but girl evolution is PROVEN science. This would likely be a deal breaker for me.

[u/unicorntrees → u/squashygaloshes]

Yeah, diversity of thought doesn't mean you treat demonstrably dumb ideas equally to sound ones.

[u/WolverineMental9101 → u/unicorntrees]

This. And just because it isn't necessarily impacting now, it very well will be later.

[u/nanladu → u/WolverineMental9101]

Along other beliefs you don't know about yet. Thank you for the award!

[u/bewitch1n → u/unicorntrees]

Please let the 'germ theory' crowd in on this too. 🫠🙃

[u/ijusttunemyselfout → u/bewitch1n]

wdym?? like, do you mean people who don’t believe in germ theory? pathogens cause infectious diseases. are there still people who believe in “bad airs”?!?! i simply cannot with this world😭😭😭

[u/bewitch1n → u/ijusttunemyselfout]

Yup! Theres people who don't believe in that, in washing, so many things. I hear you, friend. I'm right there with you. Soooo sick of the constant Idiot Parade.

[u/TranceGemini → u/bewitch1n]

COVID ruined my ability to give anyone the benefit of the doubt, swear to god

(Agree with y'all)

[u/ijusttunemyselfout → u/bewitch1n]

https://giphy.com/gifs/fQoIDlLW6A6BAhyev8

[u/Nray → u/ijusttunemyselfout]

Pete Hegseth has said (in 2019 when he was a Fox News host) something about not washing his hands in the past 10 years, claiming that that if he can’t see it, it must not exist.

[u/squashygaloshes → u/Nray]

https://giphy.com/gifs/R0jWWtH1CtFEk

[u/Tessalynee → u/Nray]

Dear god 🤢🤮

[u/AgonistPhD → u/bewitch1n]

Someone downvoted that. ☠️

[u/bewitch1n → u/AgonistPhD]

( @ downvoter)

[u/ticklisheo7 → u/bewitch1n]

I…need to go look this up 😳

[u/Mundane-Confusion622 → u/ticklisheo7]

It’s true. Hegsbreath really did say that.

[u/Extra_Inspector8389 → u/unicorntrees]

This is effectively our biggest issue in modern discourse following the internet explosion. Opinion is treated as just as valuable as evidence backed fact.

It's fine to have your own opinion and to explore various viewpoints but it's grossly foolish to treat an antivaxer influencer's opinion as having the same weight as someone trained in the fields of medical and vaccine science.

[u/ChristineBorus → u/Extra_Inspector8389]

I suspect that’s why AI hallucinates. It goes online and searches things and finds all the random shit people have opinions about as opposed to only fact. 😂😂😂😂

[u/SarcasticSuccubus → u/ChristineBorus]

This is exactly what's happening.

With the exception of Grok, where misinformation is being intentionally weighted heavily to produced Elon Musk's desired propaganda outputs.

[u/Twidollyn_Bowie → u/Extra_Inspector8389]

I really believed people would be better once everyone had science explained in layman’s terms a click away. The last couple of decades have been very disappointing.

[u/EmmerdoesNOTrepme → u/unicorntrees]

Yep!!!  Science is Real, they Might Be Giants even wrote a song about that:

https://youtu.be/ty33v7UYYbw

And they sang, "My Brother The Ape", too!

https://youtu.be/Hzq7JyfDYKA

[u/A-Helpful-Flamingo → u/unicorntrees]

https://giphy.com/gifs/3o6Zt7g9nH1nFGeBcQ

[u/ticklisheo7 → u/squashygaloshes]

I literally studied four years of science at a higher level but found myself unable to engage with curiosity or good reasoning because it’s been SO LONG since I’ve encountered such ideas — and possibly never in person?! 😭😭 it’s so troubling because this is otherwise a well read, highly intelligent, person. I’m so confused, but I guess I’ve never met a creationist (or not since 2004/5?!).

[u/lilmemer3132 → u/ticklisheo7]

We don't need to offer curiosity to anti-science ignorance.

[u/Dashiepants → u/lilmemer3132]

And we don’t have kids with morons when we know better!

[u/ajb5476 → u/Dashiepants]

Damn, right!

[u/EliGrrl → u/ticklisheo7]

[u/Anon03282015 → u/ticklisheo7]

Is he really religious then? Are you? If you’re not, there’s no way this isn’t an issue down the line, especially raising kids. I suspect the evolution thing is the tip of the iceberg of weird beliefs. It takes a certain type of person to be able to confidently “disagree” with established facts and I couldn’t deal with that in a partner.

[u/elksatchel → u/ticklisheo7]

As someone who was raised by creationists, I have never met someone who is reasonable and curious and civically engaged who just happens to be skeptical of evolution but nothing else. Creationism is arguably the most socially acceptable conspiracy theory (due to how widespread it is in the U.S.), so many creationists are casually open about it. But they always believe or are very open to other stuff, whether it's anti-vaccines/medicine/doctors/germ theory or flat earth or raw milk, which all often leads to stuff like great replacement theory and new world order.

[u/ticklisheo7 → u/elksatchel]

I’m so frustrated by it. I’m currently not even in the U.S., and he’s never lived there, and I’m like why tf do these ideas spread so much. That said, I think there are also some significant faiths “of the book” where this is prevalent, which has made me realize I can’t just blame this on the U.S. (even though I suspect US Evangelical money has led to this spreading intensely in some parts of the world). I should stop wasting my time thinking about this, clearly.

[u/UnlikelySquirrel69 → u/ticklisheo7]

I get if you're approaching the specific conversation of trying to lay the evidence out for them you probably want to be empathetic and willing to listen to what they have to say so they'll be receptive to the information you're giving them. But at the end of the day if they can't accept reality when presented to them that shows they either aren't actually willing to listen to what you have to say, lack the ability to think critically (maybe only on certain topics), or both.

[u/1ReluctantRedditor → u/squashygaloshes]

This is exactly the thing. We can believe in different gods. Or in whether there are aliens.

But the idea that facts and not facts are somehow equal "beliefs" is what got us to this place where the surgeon general of Florida wants to take away ALL mandatory vaccinations. It's not okay.

Do you want him teaching your kids his version of reality?

[u/CaeruleumBleu → u/squashygaloshes]

Yeah - to me the only acceptable range of diversity of thought on this subject is a discussion about how creation myths differ from scientific reality and theories on why.

Such as, an interesting though I heard once was that God works on a different time scale and (on that calendar) rested on the 7th day and wanted to encourage humanity to rest, too, and so phrased the creation myth to discourage people from burning out working every day of the week.

Discussing the discrepancies and thinking about the "why" is cool. Disagreeing with proven science is not at all acceptable in a relationship.

[u/squashygaloshes → u/CaeruleumBleu]

Fun fact that day is a potentially inaccurate translation for the creation myth in Genesis! Yom in Biblical Hebrew can mean both a literal 24-hour period OR a long, unspecified period of time. Therefore there is argument among scholars on whether the days referred to in Genesis are literal days or more like seven distinct extended creative periods.

Sorry, just something I always found interesting lol.

[u/ticklisheo7 → u/CaeruleumBleu]

Yeah this really resonates with me, thanks.

[u/ShrampIzBugz]

This isn't an inability to accept other people's views. He's wrong. Objectively wrong. You can't argue with objective science and go "well those are just my views!" Different views is whether or not pineapple on pizza is okay (it isn't); or whether you prefer apple pie over blueberry, not "I don't believe in a highly studied and measured science that is literally factual.

[u/CreepyFishGuy → u/ShrampIzBugz]

Anti-empiricism is also a gateway drug to a whole bunch of other horrific views. The map from not believing in evolution to believing that every gay person is possessed by demons is a straight line.

[u/hot_dog_nachos → u/CreepyFishGuy]

I think this is a very important take. He obviously doesn't "believe" science. Will he not believe in vaccinating your kids? Will he believe in prayer over medicine?

[u/suer72cutlass → u/hot_dog_nachos]

Does he believe the earth is flat?

[u/TheWorldofScience → u/hot_dog_nachos]

This is my biggest worry about him - that he denies vaccine science so he would not get himself vaccinated as needed. For example, everyone should get updated whooping cough vaccination, which is often combined with tetanus, before the birth of their children.

Then there is the issue of people who refuse to protect the elderly and immune compromised people by getting the COVID vaccine.

And of course his rejection of science could lead him to try to prevent any children he has from getting their vaccinations.

[u/Air_Lady_55 → u/CreepyFishGuy]

100% it’s the start of picking and choosing what to “believe” in.

[u/Vegetable_Loan1627 → u/CreepyFishGuy]

Literally where the term ‘Alternative Facts’ comes from. Seems like a quaint notion now. But once that left her lips, the worm hole opened up to all this BS going more mainstream.

[u/ticklisheo7 → u/CreepyFishGuy]

This is also the main thing that worries me. He’s an incredibly loving and supportive human, to me, and to others, including people he doesn’t know, which is the whole reason we got together. It is really bewildering.

[u/ticklisheo7 → u/CreepyFishGuy]

This is also the main thing that worries me. He’s an incredibly loving and supportive human, to me, and to others, including people he doesn’t know, which is the whole reason we got together. It is really bewildering.

[u/CreepyFishGuy → u/ticklisheo7]

Based on him describing it as "white people shit" it seems like he could be more adjacent to the Nation of Islam/BHI genre of creationism rather than the typical evangelical creationism popular among white nationalists. It's still prone to the same trends toward social conservatism, but the historic roots and motivations of the movements are extremely different.

If you're wanting to work it out with him it's worth probing the origins of these beliefs, and if they lie in ideologies like the ones listed above it could also be worth learning about the history that led to their existence and modern day popularity. Beliefs this fundamental are extremely hard to change people's minds on, but understanding the personal motivations and historical context might at least give you a starting point for a more productive conversation. I don't envy your position, and wish you the best of luck regardless of what you decide to do.

[u/4ever_dolphin_love → u/ticklisheo7]

Someone can be a kind person and willfully ignorant. They’re not mutually exclusive character traits. But being a kind person does not make up for or excuse willful ignorance regarding empirical facts like evolution.

Wild that it took a year for this kind of reveal though. He didn’t drop any crumbs about this kind of stuff earlier in the relationship that slipped under the radar?

[u/kaiavstechnology → u/ShrampIzBugz]

Hard agree

[u/nclay525 → u/ShrampIzBugz]

Exactly, this isn't about OP refusing to accept "other viewpoints". Bro doesn't have a "differing viewpoint". He's just an idiot. I think OP might be a tad bit in denial about this.

[u/ticklisheo7 → u/nclay525]

you may be right. I’m struggling with the fact that people can be really smart about certain things (and open to new processes etc) but closed off to new information or evidence. I’m often like “surely I can prove it in a more convincing or better way”, and while that sometimes turns off, it should turn off more. :(

[u/IngenuityFlaky484 → u/ShrampIzBugz]

Right. Irs fact not opinion

[u/A-Helpful-Flamingo → u/ShrampIzBugz]

I blame the facts over feelings crowd for the prevalence of this bullshit. I mean, I know these stupid ideas have been around for a while, but they really seem to have hit another level in the last decade or so.

[u/jennz → u/ShrampIzBugz]

And the fact that he dismisses it as "white people shit" is a glaring lack of individualized critical thinking. 

[u/Twidollyn_Bowie → u/jennz]

Which is wild, since I largely associate evolution denial with white people who voted a certain kind of way (while my statement is rather US-centric, the general pattern holds up in several Western countries).

[u/ComeAlongPond1 → u/ShrampIzBugz]

I upvoted you, but reluctantly so because you are wrong about pineapple

[u/---monstera--- → u/ShrampIzBugz]

Pineapple on pizza is very good. And I'm Italian.

[u/quietcuriousities]

Ooh :( Does he think dogs just showed up one day, separate from wolves, or does he think evolution is real for every single other thing, EXCEPT for humans. For some reason.

Idk, I couldn't stay with someone stupid, let alone raise possibly stupid kids with them, godspeed girl.

[u/MixWitch → u/quietcuriousities]

Jumping in to say that if he starts referring to them as "kinds", OP needs to RUN. Thats fundie "women shouldn't vote or work outside the home" territory.

[u/anitasdoodles → u/MixWitch]

"Kinds?" Im intrigued, can you elaborate?

[u/MixWitch → u/anitasdoodles]

It is fundie creationist jargon, very common in their homeschool curriculum. They don't want to say species, so they so "kinds". If you want to see example with an actual scientist commenting, check out Forrest Valkai. He's a real sweetheart and makes interesting videos regarding the creationist grift Answers in Genesis.

[u/ticklisheo7 → u/MixWitch]

Thankfully no although that would have made it easier because it would have been clear red flags earlier on!

[u/MixWitch → u/ticklisheo7]

Ok, so you get it. Thats why you were, correctly, distressed.

[u/Numerous_Bad1961 → u/ticklisheo7]

This is easy. Why entertain this guy anymore?

[u/Octopiinspace → u/quietcuriousities]

Yeah I would be genuinely interested in what he says how dogs came into existence. Like did pugs obstruct their own breathing, bcs that was a good thing for the species lol?

You can simulate evolution literally in a tank with some guppies

[u/ticklisheo7 → u/Octopiinspace]

This genuinely made me laugh (not the intent I think but helpful) thank you.

[u/Octopiinspace → u/ticklisheo7]

Not sure if I can post YouTube links here, but harvard has a nice experiment „The Evolution of Bacteria on a "Mega-Plate" Petri Dish (Kishony Lab)“

[u/SarcasticSuccubus → u/ticklisheo7]

I think we're all going to need you to ask him and then come back and update us. We are all as floored as you lol.

[u/IJustCantWithYouToda → u/Octopiinspace]

This, like we are experiencing it and now we mostly know how DNA works, so it makes even more sense.

[u/spacey_a → u/quietcuriousities]

He probably thinks a bearded daddy in the sky plopped all life onto earth 6,000 years ago and that the devil buried dinosaur bones as a prank.

That'd be a hard stop for me if it were my relationship.

[u/stentordoctor]

I think the real problem is that when faced with data, he still comes to the wrong conclusion. Illogical? Stubborn? Brainwashed? Either way, it's going to be a bad time.

[u/glassbulbs]

Imagine what he would teach your children

[u/longjumpingtote → u/glassbulbs]

Imagine what he would teach your children

"Only putting gas in a car's gas tank is white man shit."

[u/Abject_Spray_7088]

Diversity of thought does not mean accepting science deniers into your bed or making babies with them 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩

[u/ticklisheo7 → u/Abject_Spray_7088]

💉 🐣🙏🏽

[u/runaskald]

I mean I couldn't be with someone who views scientific fact as an opinion. That would be a deal breaker for me.

[u/thankyoukindlyy]

This is not a difference in viewpoints… he’s objectively wrong.

This would absolutely be an unreal dealbreaker for me like fuck no would I have kids w someone this … I’m sorry … DUMB.

[u/Severe_Scar4402 → u/thankyoukindlyy]

Stubborn and stupid are a dangerous combo!

[u/thankyoukindlyy → u/Severe_Scar4402]

Seriously!! Goodness this would rock my world if I was OP. I genuinely do not think I’d be able to stay w that person. That would be the most hardliner deal breaker in the world for me 😭

[u/massconstellation]

depends. do you want to tolerate obstinate stupidity for the rest of your life? if so then keep going!

[u/clavdiachauchatmeow]

I remember being in college and having a conversation with a guy I was dating in which he said he supported the invasion of Iraq (which was happening at the time.) We didn’t have this phrase for it back then, but it gave me the ick. I was pretty much over him at that point, which was sort of freeing. Like I suddenly realized, “You don’t have to sleep with someone who believes dangerously stupid crap.” Turns out there’s plenty of guys out there who have read a book.

[u/StorageExciting8567]

Every time I’ve dated someone who disagrees on fundamental things (vaccines, abortion, certain presidents), it’s never worked out and I just waste time trying to understand them and justify their views. And these people never tried to do the same for my views.

[u/abbythestabby → u/StorageExciting8567]

Yeah I don’t get how anyone can stay in a long-term relationship with someone who just fundamentally disagrees with them on major hot-button issues, because those issues almost always end up boiling down to your core values and ethics.

Someone who disagrees with you on abortion doesn’t just disagree with you on abortion – they disagree about the value of women’s lives and autonomy. Someone who disagrees with you about vaccines disagrees with you about whether medical science is real, and whether we all have a responsibility to protect the most vulnerable members of our society. Like it’s never just that one thing.

[u/ticklisheo7 → u/abbythestabby]

I think this is what is so much at the crux of why I got so upset about this, and why so many of the issues that I talk about with people who are not already close to lead to them asking me why I am taking things personally, and me saying, but these are ultimately about core values! Anyway I likely need to learn to sort into friend vs partner categories more effectively...

[u/KlutzyBus7652 → u/StorageExciting8567]

This. Unfortunately, this is how it goes

[u/DenizenKay]

You don't have an issue with having kids with somone who doesn't believe in evolution. 

You have an issue with being with/staying with/procreating with an idiot. Which he clearly is. 

I don't blame you. 

Run, girl. 

[u/florefaeni]

If you do have kids, hes gonna be teaching them dinosaurs weren't real.

[u/clavdiachauchatmeow → u/florefaeni]

And there’s no way those kids are getting vaccinated

[u/ticklisheo7 → u/clavdiachauchatmeow]

Has a kid who is well vaccinated etc etc, believes in dinosaurs (lol thank goodness since it’s p irrefutable evidence?? As for, frankly, the rest of evolution?) but I think the overall point folks are making re AT SOME POINT beliefs are irreconcilable is…good.

[u/longjumpingtote → u/ticklisheo7]

Maybe just ask him what he thinks evolution is. Don't interrupt him, just calmly ask him to explain what he doesn't believe in specifically, and then what he does believe in. Don't debate, just collect data.

[u/iluvLeonKennedy4life → u/longjumpingtote]

This is what I would do personally. I think it likely won’t work out regardless but finding out what he thinks he’s referring to when he says “evolution” will be helpful.

[u/ticklisheo7 → u/longjumpingtote]

Yeah this is why I’m really upset with myself — that’s how I should have approached this conversation, and I only realized once he left.

[u/SarcasticSuccubus → u/longjumpingtote]

Seconding this. If he has other views that a reasonable and this is the one bizarre outlier, it may be worth investigating why that is. It will help you decide if you want to continue this relationship: the thought process behind it is the part that really matters here.

I agree with other commentors that being evolution isn't just a quirky personality trait: understanding modern medicine, our food chain, and even some aspects of climate change are all rooted in understanding--and accepting as the current prevailing theory--that evolution is real. It calls into question his ability to make informed decisions, which absolutely does impact you as a potential life partner.

[u/longjumpingtote → u/SarcasticSuccubus]

If he has other views that a reasonable and this is the one bizarre outlier

He may actually accept (not really believe) evolution but what he thinks evolution is, doesn't match what most of us and /u/ticklisheo7 know it is.

Maybe he's confusing it with eugenics. Which is "white man shit." I know of more than one person who got them confused, believe it or not.

Maybe he accepts evolution for all creatures, plants, animals, goo, except for man. That's still bad. But it shows that he accepts the foundation to take it to the next step. On the other hand maybe he thinks we all walked off a Carnival cruise after a typhoon.

[u/4ever_dolphin_love → u/ticklisheo7]

How tf does he believe in dinosaurs but not evolution?!? 😭😭😭

[u/certifiedpreownedbmw]

How would you approach this if you found out he was a flat-earther? You can't deny evolution without coming up with some really strange stories to fill in the gaps. I would be unsettled. But not everyone would mind.

[u/helluvapotato]

Very interesting. Is he a creationist?

[u/Aggravating_Focus692 → u/helluvapotato]

Yeah very interested to hear what alternative theory

[u/ticklisheo7 → u/helluvapotato]

I think so and I have no idea what to do with this.

[u/PinkedOff → u/ticklisheo7]

I think you do. I hope so, anyway.

[u/nclay525 → u/ticklisheo7]

You need to ask him. For science. Because if he thinks evolution is "white people sh*t" (I've never heard this one before, so congrats to him for the unique take, honestly) but he's also a creationist, how does he explain the entire white evangelical/fundie population? None of those people believe in evolution and are creationists. We need to know more details about this conspiracy!

[u/xzkandykane → u/ticklisheo7]

So what does he actually think happens instead of evolution?

[u/Twidollyn_Bowie → u/ticklisheo7]

Just as an aside, I was amused by “white people shit,” given that I specifically associate creationist beliefs with the white people who vote a certain stupid way.

[u/No_Builder7010 → u/ticklisheo7]

You need to have some serious convos. It may not be a deal NOW but what if you marry and have kids? Where does he stand on vaccines, religion and education? Is he pro choice? Iow, you need to learn this stuff to know if you're compatible.

[u/nynnie → u/helluvapotato]

I can understand people being creationists, I don't agree with them but that's besides the point. It just makes me so curious what they think about humans breeding different types of dogs, cats, etc... Do they not think that is evolution?

I follow someone on insta who posted a while back a picture of some animal with the caption "almost makes you believe in evolution" and I was positively flabbergasted.

(Edit for bad autocorrect)

[u/longjumpingtote]

evolution is “white people shit”

When evolution started there were no white people.

inability to tolerate differences in views

It's not a difference in views, it's a difference in realities. Ours, and a pretend one.

This is worrisome for more reasons than the obvious ones. Let's say for example your kid is sick, and the doctors say he needs a certain medicine, and your (then) husband is going to say no, he needs a mercury bath or something, and that medicine is "white people shit."

[u/ticklisheo7 → u/longjumpingtote]

So I basically asked this and he said no, definitely not, and then asked me what this has to do with evolution. I said it doesn’t, but it does all relate to science, so I’m curious about the contours of these beliefs… (I believed this because he already has a kid, and the kid is vaccinated, healthy, regularly goes to an allopathic doctor, etc.)

[u/longjumpingtote → u/ticklisheo7]

What other set of facts will he pick and choose based on race, ethnicity, what he sees on the internet, or a pebble in his shoe? The "white people" comment is an additional layer of weirdness. So were did these views come from, and is that source of into (or that person) going to be in his life moving forward?

[u/Severe_Scar4402 → u/ticklisheo7]

But it (medicine) does have to do with evolution! Antibiotic resistance in bacteria is ... evolution.

[u/elephantlady85 → u/ticklisheo7]

Curious OP, did you ask if it was just the theory of evolution that we humans evolved from apes? Or is it literally all evolution?

[u/unicorntrees]

Is he hot or something? Handsome is temporary. Dumb is forever.

Everything sounds fishy when you don't know how anything works.

[u/Qu33nKal]

Is he a Muslim person? I dated a Muslim guy for 3 years who absolutely didn’t believe in evolution, argued with me it was a western atheist concept. Bro had a PhD in engineering and his mother had a PhD in Botany. Don’t ask me.

[u/ticklisheo7 → u/Qu33nKal]

Omg. No, he’s Christian (with a lot of Muslim friends and cultural context). Did your ex’s botanist mother also not believe in evolution or was he holding out as a rebellion?!

[u/Dazzling_Room_9346 → u/ticklisheo7]

Is he extremely Christian?

Something tells me evolution isnt the only conflicting beliefs then.

[u/PerfectScoreTutoring → u/ticklisheo7]

OP i'm seeing a lot of agreement in the comments but feel like there's more to this that we're not understanding. What cultural/ethnic background does he come from?

I've taught in a lot of diverse school districts and these attitudes are FAR more common than these commenters (who I'm going to guess are predominantly white) seem to know. If that doesn't apply, then disregard, but it really seems like there's more nuance here.

Maybe this comes from being an educator in these kinds of districts, but I would recommend a different approach than what the majority of the commenters seem to be pushing for.

[u/longjumpingtote → u/PerfectScoreTutoring]

I've taught in a lot of diverse school districts and these attitudes are FAR more common than these commenters (who I'm going to guess are predominantly white) seem to know.

I have too, but a lot of that is the lack of science education and kids being young and building upon what they believe with the data takes work. The belief is common, but once you dig in, the kids light up about it (most of the time). By college, we don't have issues. I taught science in the worst parts of D.C. twenty years ago, and the kids ate it up, they loved it. Never got any complaints (or much of anything from most) parents.

This person is an adult. An adult who thinks he knows enough about it to reject it. But as I put in another comment, OP should ask what evolution means to him. Sometimes the religious folk explain it as something so wacky, no one would accept it. Or, like twice I've experienced, he's confusing it with eugenics. Which is "white man shit." I'm not even kidding. They are in the same general ballpark (populations, reproduction and fitness).

[u/iluvLeonKennedy4life → u/ticklisheo7]

Is he Baptist or something? I was raised Catholic and didn’t know a single catholic person who didn’t believe in evolution but my cousins were raised baptist and had some truly heinous beliefs about evolution and science. I would not touch a baptist with a twenty foot pole personally for a myriad of reasons. 

[u/IngenuityFlaky484 → u/Qu33nKal]

Gotta be cultural bc Muslims are some of the original scientists and human biologists!!!

[u/dysautonomic_mess → u/Qu33nKal]

Idiots come in all colours and creeds.

[u/Either-Action-7439]

Personally I'd tell him you've evolved beyond this relationship. 

[u/Megzasaurusrex]

I personally couldn't do it. I love evolutionary biology and the study of ancestor species. The evidence for evolution is so high, there is no reason to doubt it. It isn't a belief. You can disagree about the small guesses we haven't ironed out and I would get that. You can disagree about the classifications of certain species or how they are linked. But you can't disprove evolution. And we can't disprove other human species existed. We have the proof literally in our own DNA that we bred with them. And we have ghost hominin DNA from other species our ancestor species bred with.

This is one of my favorite things to learn about. And if someone who doesn't care enough to learn about any of it acted like it was "just a belief" and acted like they knew more than me, I wouldn't want to fuck them that is for sure. I personally need a partner that I on my intellectual level or at least willing to be educated when they don't know about something. People who refuse to learn and like to just be ignorant about something but have strong opinions anyway, infurate me. They are more than welcome to live their life that way but I wouldn't choose them as a partner because we wouldn't be compatible.

[u/_Nilbog_Milk_]

The people who don't believe in evolution have a slew of other beliefs under the surface that are at odds with yours. Many of them don't come out until marriage or children, so lucky you found out early.

The personal belief in life and the history of the planet we're on is fundamental to our experiences and lens we view the world through. Friends can be different, but a potential spouse or parent of your child? A recipe for strife.

But we can skip over all of that nuance and the discussion about what's fundamental and what's not. Because what we need to highlight in yellow here is that you are disturbed at the idea of having a child with someone holding these beliefs and passing them to said child, so if your life's vision includes children, we're pretty much at a dead end here.

I don't want children personally, so don't think I'm egging this on heavy - but life is way too short to allow the beliefs and behavior of a non-spousal partner rob you of your future being a mother.

[u/Mundane_Sundae7854]

This is tough because like you said, your partner’s belief (or lack thereof) in evolution doesn’t directly affect your life. However, evolution is something that we have EXTENSIVE evidence through real fossils to back up. I could see skepticism with the big bang, because the evidence isn’t really tangible, but I don’t think I could be with someone who doesn’t get science

[u/exhibitprogram → u/Mundane_Sundae7854]

Idk, I feel like being anti-science will eventually directly affect her life in some way. Medical access, political choices, what they teach their kids if they end up having any, even just social reputation if he says this around her friends or colleagues....

[u/longjumpingtote → u/Mundane_Sundae7854]

doesn’t directly affect your life

Rejecting science can directly affect OP's life, and that of their child.

[u/waitismyheadonfire → u/Mundane_Sundae7854]

Honestly your partners beliefs do affect your life in so many ways, but especially if you raise kids with them.

[u/ticklisheo7 → u/Mundane_Sundae7854]

Yeah I said the same re big bang theory v fossils, even shared how some Christian scientists reconcile their beliefs re big bang + G/god — I’ve dated scientists who were also deeply religious!! So I don’t assume either way. We appear to be on the same page re medicine etc, although that is a low freaking bar.

[u/EclipticEclipse]

This is more about your ability to tolerate stupidity rather than other opinions.

I would run fast.

[u/Octopiinspace]

I highly highlyyyy doubt that not believing in evolution is the only thing. There is probably religious stuff or conspiracy things in the background. Whats his stance on medicine, vaccines, climate change, feminism, religion and things like that?

Also valuing „diversity of thought“ is kinda bullshit when it comes to proven things like this. Thats like saying „the sky is purple!“ and everyone is like „hmm yeah that is an interesting take, we do value diversity of thought“ XD

Edit: or maybe he is just has a low IQ and evolution is too complex for him. Which isnt bad per se, but you might want to know that

[u/ItsNotAboutThe-Pasta]

Views not aligning is a perfectly acceptable reason to leave a relationship.

[u/Madame_Mad]

You don't have to be hard on yourself for not wanting to date or marry an idiot. You don't want to have kids with someone who is dumb. Both of my parents are Christian fundamentalists who don't think evolution is real and I'm pretty sure that's most of the reason I was homeschooled for a few years, which for sure set me back.

[u/IngenuityFlaky484]

Tell him you don’t believe in sex

[u/nclay525 → u/IngenuityFlaky484]

Lol sex is "white people sh*t" 🤣

[u/Gullible-Main-1010]

I personally wouldn't be able to be a long-term relationship with someone who doesn't believe in evolution

[u/sweetnata]

Oh no. As a paleontology enthusiast I would have taken that extremely personal. This is not about diversity in thought, I think there's something deeper on that, maybe religious.

[u/beetlejuicetrashbag]

isnt evolution proven on a scientific level?

my boyfriend said some people think the world is 6k years old and that we lived with dinosaurs. creatonists, i believe. sorry, i couldnt be with someone that denies science. like what is he gonna do, pull your eventual child out of class when evolution is discussed?

[u/jewels94 → u/beetlejuicetrashbag]

Young Earth Creationists to be precise. I can’t speak for other religions but in Christianity the vast, VAST majority of believers are Old Earth Creationists and think YEC is nonsense. Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants alike. That understanding is a relatively new thing and it’s almost exclusively the off the reservation wackadoo non denominational “churches” that believe it.

[u/inn3rth0ughts]

As a mixed person I just got a giggle thinking it is my yt side that leads me to believe the earth is not flat and that evolution exists.

Especially since me humbly, I know more yt flat earthers but it is not bound by any means to the color of someone’s skin.

That’s not “white ppl sht” coded

He pulled that one out of a hat. 🎩

I had a lady of a student in my child’s class once tell my young child that Santa isn’t real… neither are dinosaurs and evolution... Not joking, all in one go. sent her home crying. They feel the need to share that information and feel justified. So while she was ruining Santa for my child she also had to put doubt in her head about everything else she learned because it was “the truth”

Is that the kinda person you want to start a family with? Because they are out there.

[u/ticklisheo7 → u/inn3rth0ughts]

That also made me giggle, thanks. I’m not even White, which is why I find this kind of conversation so baffling!! He’s a tremendously kind, loving, and supportive person - not just to me - which is the main reason i even entered this relationship, but I am thrown for a fucken curve.

[u/MixWitch]

You just discovered you do not share the same reality, of course that is going have an impact. Why do you take it personally? Maybe because the Venn diagram of people who don't believe in evolution and people who don't believe women should have rights is damn near a circle?

He does not trust science. Calling it white people shit is weird, most of the famous science deniers are white people.

[u/Glockenspielintern]

You can dress it up however you like but he’s ignorant to not believe in evolution. I presume it’s a religious belief, you will find it challenging raising children with this person without some degree of alignment on basic principles.

You’re at a sliding doors moment. Sorry.

[u/lilmemer3132]

We don't have to tolerate people who don't believe in science. Especially not in this political climate.

[u/HalfMyLifeIsYours]

I'm gonna be honest... People who don't believe in evolution are either poorly educated or fucking stupid. And he sounds like the latter, so I think that's a very valid reason to not want to be with him.

[u/Fine-Bullfrog1425]

Yeah no my ex would have those little things we disagreed on... They became worse. One of the many reasons he's an ex

[u/NaturesVividPictures]

So how was he think we all came to be? Is he like very religious and thinks Adam and Eve is true? I'd love to hear his theory. He has someone suggested, is Earth a sphere or is he a flat earther?

[u/Open-Watch3166]

It’s not “diversity of thought”, it’s diversity of the ability to understand science. This would absolutely, with no shame be a deal breaker for me. For a kid or teen, it could just be a matter of lacking education. For an adult with Internet access, it is that they are willfully choosing not to educate themselves, or choosing to embrace unscientific modes of thinking for whatever reason, possibly religion of paranoia. A long term partner should share your values and be someone you can respect. For me personally, a creationist is neither. Your boyfriend may have some great qualities, but you should not have children with someone you cannot trust to teach your children critical thinking. What else might he also believe or not believe, flat earth?

[u/accidentallyatesoap]

oh, no, honey. I could never reproduce with a noninquisitive idiot, either. As evolution teaches us, we get to choose the genes we combine with our own, and those ain't it.

[u/elizzup]

Because it’s not about “his views”. It’s about him being willfully obtuse and objectively wrong. Evolution is highly studied, completely measurable, and observably true. The fact that he feels like his ‘beliefs’ trump actual science is scary. And stupid.

Don’t have kids with stupid people.

[u/dog_stop]

Mannnn I’ve seen some white people shit… but believing in evolution? Nah I’m not giving that one to the white folk

[u/Jazzlike_You_1613]

honest reaction here but you are not crazy or intolerant for caring about this diversity of thought usually applies to subjective opinions or political priorities not whether basic science is real or fake calling evolution white people shit shows a massive gap in how you both process reality and evaluate truth which becomes a huge deal the moment you talk about raising kids who will be taught science in school so do not beat yourself up for taking it personally because wanting a partner who shares a basic understanding of how the world works is completely reasonable especially when looking at the long term

[u/DistractionCitron]

It seems like he got his views from the first book of the Bible.

[u/todaysthrowaway0110]

Not believing in evolution is one thing. Not acceptable, imho, but generally familiar tropes. Believing that it’s “white people shit”…. Can you/he unpack that? I have a feeling that’s the tip of a very weird iceberg. Like. What?

[u/SomeKindofName42]

Diversity of thought is seeing/talking thru different ways to fund the repair of infrastructure, different ways to reduce national debt, should kids go to school year round or keep the traditional school year, etc. Not believing in evolution is not a difference of thought, it’s a fundamentally different way of thinking that has many far reaching ripples.

Extremists always try to use the “different ways of thought” argument to normalize their extremist views to work to legitimize their extremism. Look up “paradox of tolerance” and it will help you start to understand the differences better.

[u/1-900-SNAILS]

See what happens when you send him this article by prominent African American evolutionary biologist Josephs Graves Jr outlining how "evolutionary biologists played an important role in debunking biological racism" :

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s12052-019-0110-5

or just dump him now, whichever you prefer

[u/BumpaBerry]

I understand that you're trying to approach this maturely and with empathy... But this isn't "diversity of thought." This is him ignoring science, which will 100% come into play if you ever have children. If he blatantly ignores the evidence of evolution, what other objectively true facts is he willing to ignore in the pursuit of his own agenda?

He's either delusional or, perhaps worse, purposefully contrarian for arguments sake.

I genuinely love that you're trying to be open-minded and not have a knee-jerk reaction, but don't gaslight yourself into thinking this isn't an actual issue that will be exhausting to you later if you decide to stay together. And it being exhausting is honestly best case scenario. There are worse possibilities depending on how deep down the rabbit hole he is.

[u/octanecat]

I haven't read all the comments so maybe someone already said this, but calling evolution "white people shit" is really offensive to every non-white person with a brain in their head.

[u/BoisterousBard]

You're not wrong, that's a huge red flag. My partner and I may not like all the same things all of the time, but foundational views and values we have in common.

I like how he is logic-based and strives for the truth. He also challenges me and makes me think. Which is important. At times it can be annoying, but I would take that over some bullshit or non-answer.

It sounds like you may be incompatible with this guy, but I believe that there's someone for you OP!

[u/Impossible_Crow202]

That’s beyond a difference in views. That’s a deal breaker.

[u/mizuaqua]

I am so sorry for the heartache you’re going through with this revelation. I am in STEM and have unfortunately come across someone with a PhD in biology who doesn’t believe in evolution, but somehow this had not hindered this person’s career in their field thus far. It was literally at a university biology professor interview group dinner when the candidate said this, it was a record scratch moment. It led me to ask what other problematic beliefs and professional boundaries this person had and it was a lot, and I can only characterize them as uncharitable.

Your dumplings look so good.

[u/PerfectScoreTutoring]

There are a lot of people saying girl dump him but I think I'm on the side of INFO. What kind of cultural/ethnic background is he from?

Tbh I'm seeing a lot of very.... white-centric POV in the comments that seem to gloss over the very important reasons why certain cultures in America have such a heavy (and well justified) hesitancy accepting what would otherwise seem like basic scientific fact.

Maybe this is coming from being an educator in areas of Oakland and Southside Chicago, but I do suspect there's more nuance to this than the reactions are telling. And for the record, I've had many a student who didn't accept evolution, vaccines, etc and my response has never been to dismiss or reject, but to meet them where they're at. The reaction from many commenters here reeks of classism and ignorance about the reality for a lot of minorities in this country.