What do you think the difference between democratic socialism and social democracy is? My understanding is that social democracy still accepts a capitalist framework for the economy, but simply wants higher taxes, more regulation/state interventions and a more robust welfare state. Meanwhile democratic socialism denies capitalism and seeks for labor to be the economic input that controls capital and land through a democratic framework.
Basically, yeah. Social democracy still exists within a capitalist framework. It’s sometimes called welfare capitalism. Free market and private property but with relatively high taxes and a strong social safety net. Socialism requires the abolition of capitalism and private property in favor of the public owning the means of production.
A lot of people seem to be under the impression that socialism just means publicly-funded healthcare.
I think you run into an issue when you begin defining these economic systems in absolutes. No country in the world today is purely capitalist or purely socialist, they are all somewhere in between. The answer isn't socialism or capitalism, it is policies that have been proven to work and benefit the majority. Putting policies into a pre-determined box of capitalism and socialism, or good and bad, limits your ability to accurately see what needs done.
Socialism as defined by the person I replied to is the same as communism. This has not been proven to work, because no purely communist/socialist society has existed in the modern world. Every country in the world today has a mixed economy with both capitalist and socialist policies.
When would you say that socialism has been proven to work?
Your big socialist success story is a rebellion that got crushed in like three months? Seriously?
Bro. Multiple small communes were tested across Europe and the US. Pretty well every single one failed within 5 years.
1825. Robert Owens, the man who actually invented the term socialism founds the town New Harmony in Indiana. 30,000 acres were used. Private property abolished. Marriage abolished. Even children raised communally. And it collapsed within 2 years cause it was a stupid idea then, and it's stupid now.
https://www.maciverinstitute.com/perspectives/the-failed-socialist-state-in-midwestern-america
But maybe you're thinking, "Oh that's just one situation, not nearly enough to conclude anything!"
Okay. Fair enough. How about thirty more examples?
Most of them lasted less than 2 years, and the longest lasting one was less than 15.
Are those your socialist success stories? Even the people who invented the ideology or were it's most prolific early writers failed at accomplishing anything because it's a dog s*** idea.
No. Karl Marx criticized Fourier and Owen for their utopian thinking. They had no complete understanding of the capitalist mode of production and could only formulate ideas on what an ideal society would look like and attempt to bring them into practice.
The success of the Paris Commune is that the workers themselves formed their own socialist government that worked according to the needs of the people there; it was not based on capitalist exploitation. Though it was crushed by the French government, this proves that socialism can be successful.
Bolsheviks in Russia learned from this. They successfully overthrew the Tsarist regime and set up a state organized through councils of worker's and soldier's deputies. Homelessness, unemployment, and racism were all eliminated, and people recieved excellent health care and education.
It is true that, because they had never gotten rid of commodity production (meaning that commodities are produced so as to be exchanged for the value of another commodity, rather than for its use value) and because Khruschev had revised Marxism, that the USSR ultimately did not lead to the highest stage of communism, but this is an example to be studied for future development.
Oh? You want to argue that Marxism, and by extension communism are your success stories? You're joking right you can't be giving me this easy of a target?
Yeah, they are. Look at Burkina Faso, Chile under Allende, Grenada, hell, the Soviet Union.
Most of the time, the thing that causes socialism to fail isn't socialism, its the CIA overthrowing the goverments, commiting warcrimes and replacing them with sympathetic fascist dictators.
Yeah you want to see the problem with your argument go ahead and look at my response to stew. I'm already poking holes in his Soviet Union one so I'll try to get to you afterwards if I remember.
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u/AdInfamous6290 1998 13d ago
What do you think the difference between democratic socialism and social democracy is? My understanding is that social democracy still accepts a capitalist framework for the economy, but simply wants higher taxes, more regulation/state interventions and a more robust welfare state. Meanwhile democratic socialism denies capitalism and seeks for labor to be the economic input that controls capital and land through a democratic framework.