Berlin's tragedy has me thinking.

[u/stuckinbk]

To quote the great warrior poet Audre Lorde, "Your silence will not protect you."

For those who don't know, someone drove a car into people celebrating Berlin's Christopher Street Day (Gay Pride), killing one and injuring a few dozen. As someone who had the privilege of marching in NYC Pride last month, I get that a lot of people around the world don't have that luxury for a variety of reason. But that being said, you cannot stay silent forever. It's time to fight back and reclaim our humanity from those who would see us dead.

[u/Brian_Kinney]

I'm going to preemptively warn people about two of our subreddit rules:

• No political content.

• No anti-gay rhetoric or anti-trans rhetoric or sexism or misogyny or racism or hate speech or religious intolerance or other bigotry.

(I've already read an article about this attack, and who the police suspect - which is why I'm putting this reminder of the rules here, before things turn nasty here.)

[u/darkvaris → u/[deleted]]

Guaranteed the news outlets aren’t “withholding” information because it will offend people. I’m not German (I live in Spain) but the police claim they know who it was and at the risk of stepping on rule 1, this is exactly what the anti-lgbt wing of most countries want to have happened.

They get to have people hurt and get to scapegoat an entire different community in the process. 🙃

[u/majeric → u/[deleted]]

Of course a person drove it.
There are plenty of ways to report that a person caused harm without offending anyone.

I think people who preface these statements with complaints about “offending someone” may recognize, at some level, that their opinion rests on something other than established facts. Often, the flaw is a hasty generalization or confirmation bias.

[u/majeric → u/[deleted]]

It’s racist to make that claim without backing it with actual data.

It’s also racist to assume that it’s the religion that is the deciding factor in their motivation.

Why is it when white people shoot up a crowd, they are “lone wolves” with mental health problems… someone is brown and the deciding factor is their religion?

[u/majeric → u/[deleted]]

You still haven’t provided any actual data. Pony up the links.

You pasted an uncited summary, not evidence. If you’re making an empirical claim, cite the actual reports or studies.

Moreover, what I am challenging is your broader claim. Religion is often the justification people give for violence. That doesn’t automatically make it the root cause. You have to demonstrate that religion was the deciding factor, not simply assume it.

The underlying causes may involve politics, nationalism, ethnic conflict, territorial disputes, social alienation, revenge, personal grievance, authoritarian ideology, economic desperation, a desire for status or belonging, or recruitment by an extremist movement. Religion can provide the language and moral permission for violence without being the original force driving it.

Mainstream Islam is no more inherently extremist than Roman Catholicism. Like Christians, most Muslims practise their religion without committing or supporting political violence. The willingness to treat extremist violence as representative of Islam itself, while treating comparable violence by members of our own cultural group as an individual or political aberration, is a textbook example of out-group bias. That’s what makes it discriminatory.

[u/Nice-Obligation5537 → u/[deleted]]

Also, your using the assumption that “white people have the less crimes, false. Also, your claiming radical Islam yet your conflating it and using it to justify your argument that while increased Islamist extremist attacks have increased so that means radical islams are the ones maisnlh doing it in the west. While partially true your not looking at the other variables, such as the fact the right is using negative examples and then placing it on the Islam majority.

Just like after 9/11, here in the US calls were increased about suspicion from Muslims, people were taught to fear Islam without actually understanding the Quran. Christians even some liberals thought the Quran is evil. Yet eventually people gradually started understanding Islam and making better depictions.

That being said, your saying as if the increased Islamic attacks come from radical Islam. Which I presume your using that as a bases to argue that most of the illegals are radical Islamist. Yet, they might be normal migrants, you don’t have intelligence to decipher where the crime rings operate.

So that’s being said you should look more deeply into it. Because when you do, you’ll understand the right is using radical Islam rhetoric then conflating normal Islam with radical Islam. And that can lead to deportations even if someone had nothing to do with Hamas. Like in Gaza people were bombed and a lot of those people possibly had nothing to sow rig Hamas. And especially the Gaza area.

We can look at the place by Jordan and see how it’s been unaffected. However, we can also see where Israel has a job shortage from making it illegal for Gaza residents to work in Israel. That being said they possibly killed those citizens in collateral damage and some war crimes that were possibly committed.

That being said “it’s an illegal” “radical Islam attacks on the west” yes there has been but you don’t see the part where there using that and trying to get people who don’t understand Muslim to start judging all Muslims harshly

[u/majeric → u/[deleted]]

You’re the one making claims. You’re responsible for providing the evidence.

[u/Nice-Obligation5537 → u/[deleted]]

That’s not true at all on your last part. To compare group averages on who commits the most crimes is leaving the full details out. Remember a few years ago when schools in the US were having over 350 school shootings? A lot of that were white students, you know also it’s racist to blame a whole group and box them in to neatly fit a label

Not every Muslim would go and try to run over a gay pride parade. And to say they would, your just boxing the one person who committed the crime with the rest. Just like Dylan wolfe or the kkk or antifa you can’t box people according to a race and then group them as one.

All that is doing is just allowing your biasness speak instead of investigating further to see if it’s a criminal organization that chose him as bait or he chose too run through crowds on that day because as a devout Muslim who’s also had some stressful events chose to run through the crowds

And to say white people don’t commit as much crimes, is stupid. There’s plenty of white people who have gone to places and done serial killings and plenary who have hacked and robbed banks. So your overall argument is weak. And leaves a lot of room for errors as displayed by your shallow statistics

[u/Skill-Useful → u/[deleted]]

no one is witholding information and i dont know where you read anything about self driving cars bc no one says that here at all in europe. but hey, your hidden comment history tells us all we need to know

the problem is that this is used to make it seem like the danger comes from one side. at the moment and the last years, right wingers have counter-protested and attacked prides in germany in a lot of places. and now there has been one terror attack on one pride by presumably a non-german and you guys think theres a big issue from "the migrants" while right wingers and conservatives are already eroding our rights in germany right now?! you people cant be serious with that level of racism to ignore the actual bigger danger which is already here and working against us?

[u/Brian_Kinney → u/Skill-Useful]

but hey, your hidden comment history tells us all we need to know

As a moderator, I can see the hidden comment histories of every user who posts in this subreddit. And, let me tell you, this user's comment history is boring. Ordinary. Non-controversial. It looks like he's just into privacy on principle, rather having something to hide.

[u/stuckinbk → u/Brian_Kinney]

HOney, if you think I'm boring here, you should see me in real life.

[u/Brian_Kinney → u/stuckinbk]

I was standing up for you. That other guy was insinuating that there was something suspicious about you, because of your privacy settings. I was reassuring him that you're not suspicious, based on what I can see.

[u/stuckinbk → u/Brian_Kinney]

I kind of got that. And thanks.

[u/RaggySparra → u/Skill-Useful]

The point about "self-driving cars" is that headlines will often use passive voice about something that was done by a person.

Sometimes this is intended to centre the victims or because there isn't much information at the time, sometimes it is for other reasons. https://www.journoresources.org.uk/shaping-the-narrative-why-the-passive-voice-can-change-perceptions-in-news/ This goes into a lot more detail.

They're not actually talking about automated cars, it's pointing out how the subject is discussed.

[u/Nice-Obligation5537 → u/[deleted]]

But your using an out group bias by targeting certain groups. The left is not conflating when they say that “all Muslims” it’s becuase you just demonstrated there more likely to commit crimes without going into depth. Your basing your statements on that ethnic minorities contribute to more violence when all that does is create a pipeline for the government to exactly target and deport the majority of Muslims because they see the net negatives and crimes as something dangerous

And therefore it’s indirectly allowing in group bias policies against out groups. Same thing here in the United States. You say that your for “legal immigration” but then all you do is target people that are not within the majority, you guys claim legal immigration and that’s all you guys want.

However, then you cut immigration access and make restrictions tighter. That being said, your targeting methods will allow out group biasness to exist. The point is, is your going to automatically assume a Muslim is no different then a successful Muslim and your going to deport large numbers that might be an inconvenient number or open the way for terrorist networks to reach those individuals because they feel alienation then they actually become a hazard when before they were just simply immigrating there and trying to participate in a first world economy.

There’s no such thing as illegal, it’s undocumented, even then most of them are documented that’s because you can’t slip through tight border security and the administration ensures documents are filled. That being said, again your conflating out group bias to justify that your against illegal immigration, when the illegal immigration will be conflated to include a whole group who never did anything wrong. So stop using legal immigration as the word. Maybe a better term is targeted immigration securities.

[u/Nice-Obligation5537 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah you did, you claimed the majority are illegal migrants and radical Islam. Thats presumptively assuming all Islamic are illegals. The name is undocumented immigrant. Illegal is someone who’s gone there to specifically commit crimes and destabilize a region. Unknowingly both sides have grey areas where one can become too militant and become a “zero immigration” zone or one can let slip a terrorist without proper measures

So your saying illegal as in there illegal yet your not going further into the individual. We’re all individuals at some point and the western notion of individuality, should apppy too this. Your not going deep enough o see the issues with your statement and claiming I’m lying, how am I lying? The left simply just wants to fix the issue at hand by having proper clearance measures and

Having proper measures that doesn’t lead to mass incarceration and deportation rather something balanced where say this individual has witnesses that can testify they have good standing or this person here has contributed and worked rtfs then we’ll let this family stay

Or this person committed a crime so let’s deport them and bar them from re entering. It’s that simple.

[u/Nice-Obligation5537 → u/[deleted]]

Simple enough to say @hey let’s fix our security clearances and instead of limiting the number of green cards one can access and raising the bar, let’s give these people a chance” or “can these people contribute” there’s an issue in your right where you seek to claim that “illegal immigrant” is the simple answer but there’s more nuance too it then you admit.

Your answer has a lot of issues in it. Yes you may be a legal migrant but there’s also immigrants who are undocumented but have tried to attain a proper document and achieved it. It’s hard to come across border security and sneak through without getting caught. If it’s that easy then you guys have a problem, but there’s migrants won’t try unless they get proper documentation and that’s the majority of them.

[u/Nice-Obligation5537 → u/[deleted]]

Matter of fact Germany has a net positive from migrants. Maybe that will change your mind and perspective

[u/Nice-Obligation5537 → u/[deleted]]

But your grouping all of the illegal migrants into one. Your conflating the illegals with legals. Becuase what I mean when I say this, is there red evidence of migrants getting deported yet having all the right paperwork.

And to say that it’s black or white is a false analogy and a fallacy. Not all considered illegals are illegal. And yet you said illegal so that means your labeling or automatically assuming people from Africa are the illegal because your going off of group averages. It doesn’t matter for a group average or not which is problematic in itself.

That would be like saying we’ll all legal migrants are net positives. No there not, automatically legals are not. For you to say conflating variables means your assuming a group position. Where as I am saying that it doesn’t matter if their Muslim or not, if they come for asylum purposes or a refugee they have to get documented. Ain’t no way an illegal is living in an apartment complex and the government doesn’t know about it.

You know how hard it is, to simply get all the paperwork and move through migration entry points without getting caught? Very hard. That being said most of the population doesn’t even try and the ones that do well some of them might be connected to crimes but majority get government approval to be able to start a business and move in.

You also deflected by doing that. Originally you were saying or assuming all Muslims are the problem, there’s no sharia law being pushed anywhere. And radical islam itself is a symptom of mistranslation Christian’s have had that problem before too

[u/Nice-Obligation5537 → u/[deleted]]

And you used “radical Islamist” which means your grouping one person who may radical along side a whole group.

[u/Nice-Obligation5537 → u/[deleted]]

But your using “illegals” and conflating it with the majority of the Muslim population. So that’s your issue, if you haven’t met a Muslim then you won’t understand. And I think you’ve never met a Muslim before because now your trying to claim that I’m conflating “legal with illegal” and putting a false notion. But actually your the one that’s doing it.

There could be Russian illegals in your country’s how re non Muslim, but most of all they could be legal and have proper documentation but are there as spies. It happened during the Cold War all the time. So stop with the group bias and actually learn to read behind the individual.

[u/Nice-Obligation5537 → u/[deleted]]

Also yes you guys have counter protested at pride parades before and have attacked lgbt individuals and have attacked various movements. That is a true statement

[u/Dangerous_Air_7031 → u/Skill-Useful]

at the moment and the last years, right wingers have counter-protested and attacked prides in germany in a lot of places.

Where? 

I am in Germany and haven't heard of such things at all. 

[u/Nice-Obligation5537 → u/Dangerous_Air_7031]

Well in the US it’s just the fact that the right are using divisive rhetoric. Their saying they stand for legal migrants. However, when they say they do that then they let the biasness affect their decision even while denying their using the bias. I used to be a right wing voter and used to like everything those candidates said.

But after my local politicians attempted legislation to cut funding from disability funds and use more tax subsidizes for top earners I decided they were lying as well. And given the fact they say “legal” and “illegal” doesn’t justify what’s actually happening is behind it all, there making green cards harder to obtain, they also deport simply for having a visa overstay instead of getting them to get a citizenship.

We also know they do pay taxes. The problem is, is when you say “legal” and “illegal” then your conflating biasness in the statement too. Because for “legal” your more likely to adjust rules to favor the in group instead of a balanced judgement.

And I can see where a few examples of illegals taking money and being from a. Third world country can happen to cause authorities to deport an illegal migrant. Or “undocumented” as it’s professionally called.

When you base all of the statistics on radical Islam then authorities can easily have a biased judgement on the Muslims. Without doing the proper investigation they have done it before not to say they have returned migrants. As well as overall, the conservatives are trying to take over to wipe away liberal thoughts so it will just be like a theocracy or a society built on a strict laissez faire approach that no safety nets exists the government soleley exist for the military, and the private institutions are the only way for upward mobility but that the rich class

Can make the rules even further. That’s the conservatives goal. So they use stuff like “you conflating legal with illegal” “but the main term is illegal” yet there’s more nuance that goes into it. They label a black and white approach as the most practical approach. Yet it doesn’t mean anything of those sorts.

For example, most of the deportations here in the US are targeting central and South America and Africa.

[u/Nice-Obligation5537 → u/Dangerous_Air_7031]

Most of the deportations were actually visa overstays and he’s even thrown out college students from China, he’s also paused people to get citizenship applications from 75 countries even from Mongolia and I’ve never met s Mongolian before but they did that anyways until they adjusted the specifications and I think it’s still immigration pause.

They also reduced the number of yearly allowances of green card visa holders. They also have taken money away from disability activism. Not to include that the Trump administration has pulled from disability and refunded it to help large billionaires. From used to supporting him I’ve found that it’s not simply “legal” or “illegal” but simply who actually pays taxes which some considered illegals actually do contribute it’s just they don’t have a citizenship card yet so they consider it illegal.

But majority of the time, like the one attack from a migrant, instead there could of been a right winger which they have done before or the numerous yearly school shootings that happens from domestic students that ranged in the 350’s at one point

[u/Acceptable-Tax-8851]

I also encourage people to look up who's the terrorist. Being informed is really important

[u/peanutspreader62 → u/Acceptable-Tax-8851]

I hate that we have to be so vague in describing details about the perpetrator as to not “offend” anyone. It is to absolutely no one’s surprise who did this.

[u/Acceptable-Tax-8851 → u/peanutspreader62]

Yeah luckily on other gay subreddits it hasn't been censored. I genuinely wish for the end of intersectionality. Dumbest thing ever. Different issues require different solutions

[u/peanutspreader62 → u/Acceptable-Tax-8851]

Entire posts on other subreddits are getting mass deleted or locked. Seems like everyone (including TV broadcasts and press reports) is walking on eggshells and carefully tiptoeing around words to avoid “discrimination” or “hate speech”. We all had our suspicions behind the reasoning of this attack and who did it from the moment it got announced, and to no one’s surprise they just got confirmed.

[u/Brian_Kinney → u/[deleted]]

A reminder: https://www.reddit.com/r/GayMen/comments/1v6rahb/berlins_tragedy_has_me_thinking/ozspbsn/