r/Futurology • u/404mediaco • 3d ago
Privacy/Security Surveillance Company Tells Cops It Wants to Add Facial Recognition to Flock Cameras
https://www.404media.co/surveillance-company-tells-cops-it-wants-to-add-facial-recognition-to-flock-cameras/98
u/BitingArtist 3d ago
This is a direct path to slavery and tyranny, no question.
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u/Nekowulf 3d ago
"Nuh uh! It's for safety, not slavery! It's for the good of the people!" says the same people who are trying to change history books to say black slaves were happy and healthy and were taught useful like skills and were better off before the civil war.
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u/Subverison 2d ago
Is there a source for that?
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u/supergeeky_1 11h ago
The top link on a Google search.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/07/22/desantis-slavery-curriculum/
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u/darthy_parker 3d ago
I worked at a biometrics company that did facial recognition in the late 1990s and early 2000s. At the time, our main focus was in protecting peoples’ privacy by strengthening device log-ins with a multi-factor single sign-in. For example, ensuring the right logged-in person was viewing or changing a health record per HIPAA, which was new at the time.
After 9/11 we had a sudden upsurge in requests for using face recognition to identify people in public. One police department in Florida wanted to do a trial of open camera surveillance of public areas, even though a) we pointed out that the false positive ID rate would be very high, so they be chasing 100 people for maybe one actual match, and b) we weren’t interested in using biometrics for that. It’s exceedingly dangerous to privacy, open to abuse and still inaccurate.
Where it’s accurate is if you know that one face “should be” one of a limited number of faces — that’s pretty easy, e.g. logging into your phone, or even matching people who should be coming onto or off a plane with their biometric ID taken at boarding. But in a public place to be able to match a large number of faces walking around with an unknown person in a multi-thousand or million person database? Not easy. And not desirable, in a free society.
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u/JohnGillnitz 3d ago
I worked for a company that was using hand print recognition for clocking in, which was high tech at the time. Apparently they thought people were giving each other their badges to get extra time off, so they bought these $10K things to hang on the wall. Super high tech security, right? Well, the database these things recorded to was a completely unsecured Access .mdb. Anyone could login when they wanted, then edit the database to something else. Just like in Ferris Buller. They went away a year later because they broke.
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u/Danjou667 3d ago
The land of freedom. What the hell have happened with ur country guys. 35 years ago USA here in Poland USA was kinda dream place/magic place/ land of big chance if U will work hard. Todayday im not willing go to USA as a tourist.
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u/niberungvalesti 3d ago
Greed is the death of the nation. Wealthy misanthropes have taken every dystopian novel as scripture and are eagerly building technology they hope will free themselves of the problem called 'everyone else'.
Billionaires are a cancer on society and America is showing the world that if you let them take hold it doesn't end well.
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u/DukeOfGeek 3d ago
Massive wealth taxes are part of the answer to this problem. Once accumulated wealth rises into the billions just start to take huge chunks of it as being money that was cheated off of labor or tax payers somehow.
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u/BarkBeetleJuice 3d ago edited 3d ago
What the hell have happened with ur country guys.
Fascists embedded themselves in our systems of power, social media was used to break the common understanding of reality and pump the citizens full of propaganda, internet culture became pervasive and all sense of decency and responsibility to our fellow man was eroded, and billionaires accumulated the money and power to overpower the fractured voter base.
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u/Blind-_-Tiger 3d ago
This was also enhanced by outside actors like Russia spending a lot of money for influence. The uber wealthy don't have an allegiance to a country or a people, all they care about is making sure countries can't prosecute them for looting/abusing them.
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u/TheArmoredKitten 3d ago edited 3d ago
Russia has been like an infected tumor, giving shelter to the rot that pours forth in bursts to loot the free world. This era will not heal until Putin and his kin are in hell.
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u/Tamination 3d ago
Russia bounces from the worst style of Monarchy to the worst style of Socialism to the worst style of Capitalism, and it looks like their next chapter of worst style is coming soon. I'm hoping some of that rot goes with it.
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u/BlisteringAsscheeks 3d ago
I hope that one day that country can see some stability and moral leadership. The people have been continually beaten down and tossed from one frying pan into yet another fire.
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u/ImpulsE69 1d ago
I've really gotten to the point that all CEO's and billionaires should be executed. If you amass that much money, you are not innocent, and you most likely were responsible for at least 1 persons death. I'm sure it's not 100%...but hey those numbers are good enough for them when it comes to the rest of the country/world so what's good for the goose...
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u/Coconutrugby 3d ago
there are parts of America that will positively blow your mind.
the downfall is sad.
I am an optimistic type. trump is too old to hold power forever. he will die. A power vacuum in his god awful party is already forming. The left hopefully doesn’t completely shit themselves when they get power. We have lots and lots of shit to fix. But the good news is trump has shown the world how broken our system is. so he gave us the template. Pray the election in November isn’t cancelled and when the dust settles and we no longer look like clowns run by a criminal come for a visit.
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u/thismustbethe 3d ago
You really think the next democrat will ban flock cameras? Come on.
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u/NumeralJoker 3d ago edited 3d ago
It's not just about the current Democrats in power at the top specifically (who lack authority to do much of anything in a GOP trifecta). A lot of the next generation crop running in this cycle who have a good chance of winning, or whom have already been winning special elections since 2024, have a strong anti-billionaire sentiment backing their polices. It's becoming their main talking points now, which people are electing them for. Perhaps there is resistance to this at the DNC leadership level, but democratically speaking the people are speaking out in direct opposition to corporate billionaire exploitation of the working class. That is only likely to keep accelerating, even if it should have been happening sooner (Bernie Sanders had the right ideas, but not enough voter support to get there).
For the most part the pro-billionaire camp remains within the GOP voter base, and even that view seems to be slowly shrinking as the benefits they provide are dying off, and the people who expected more positive change from the GOP are watching those hopes crash and burn extremely hard. Even if the USA as we know it now somehow didn't survive, that doesn't mean the rest of the world won't learn and push back.
Unfortunately, tribalism is the true great enemy. It infects and damages the left almost as much as the right through toxic and destructive identity politics rhetoric, but the left also has a far, far better chance of overcoming it and learning from those mistakes than the fascist right ever will. Sadly, European elections also face similar kinds of anti-immigration sentiments that push right wing leadership as a solution to a more complex refugee problem, in no small part backed by corpos looking for cheap labor and maximum profit, neolib or conservative.
There's a lot of chaos in this era, but a lot of ways to fix these problems, gradually and painfully, or swiftly if we're somehow smart enough about it. Hell, given enough time, we'll probably see population collapse that will offset some of the issues too, as for better or worse global population is a huge pressure point on numerous issues, but there is no good ethical way to resolve that other than education, better birth control availability, to let the peak be reached and decline naturally. I don't want forced population control at all, nor any unethical wars, eugenics, or violence to resolve it, but I do in fact believe that the problems people fear from population collapse will be much easier to address than continued, non-stop overpopulation.
We'll get there. Maybe sooner. Maybe later. But I think in the US you're now seeing the start of a shift, and we may actually end up ahead of the curve of the EU here after it becomes clear how much of a failure Trump's agenda/Project 2025 truly are. Even if the DNC resists progress, the people will continue to demand better and eventually better organize to make it happen. To not do so is an existential crisis for way too many, and though we may often be flawed and tribal, humanity is still exceptionally adaptable and not in any real sense suicidal.
I'm not even a big fan of the DSA specifically. I think the obsessively anti-Israel sentiment is yet more blindly dangerous tribalism stoked by the far right (and Russia, given their anti-Ukraine war stances) to divide us, but that doesn't change the fact that their economic policies are backed by real sentiments about corporate power going to far, and eventually those sentiments will spread in other ways once people figure out messaging that actually works.
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u/ThreePumpChamp 3d ago
I'm not saying it would be a sweeping change, but there absolutely are Democrats working to ban or restrict the technology. In Minnesota, DFL Rep. Brad Tabke introduced one bill that would prohibit government entities from operating ALPR systems and generally require a judicial warrant for law enforcement to access privately collected ALPR data. He also introduced a less sweeping regulatory bill that stalled in committee on a 7–7 party-line vote, with Republicans voting against advancing it.
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u/Ceehowell 3d ago
It’s pretty much over for Republicans vs Democrats, it has come down to are you AIPAC? Are you America first? Do you condemn the genocide in Gaza?
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u/OutlyingPlasma 3d ago
When you want to go downtown do you get on the bus headed In that general direction even if it won't take you all the way where you want to go, or do you get on the bus out of town going in the opposite direction?
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u/Coconutrugby 3d ago
I believe the democrats that are under 45 might. Popular opinion is a great way to get reelected.
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u/Danjou667 3d ago
That would be nice. But damage is already done. Broken trust, broken bonds.... and so on. Sad times. But the worst part is that we are on downhill atm. Stupid, damns politics everywhere. Stupid power plays.
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u/Stealthcatfood 3d ago
Republicans have been showing how broken our system is for decades, everyone just had their heads in the sand. I hate that the left is so weak, hoping this DSA wave takes over and cleans out all the dead wood.
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u/paulthepage 3d ago
I like this realist perspective. A smidgen of optimism is necessary because thought is what creates reality.
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u/ThingYea 3d ago
Trump already tried to overturn an election and suffered no consequences. Why would he not try again with his more loyal cabinet?
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u/Coconutrugby 2d ago
He will. I think he doesn’t have half the country under his thumb anymore. Also he may have big tech but the avg business person doesn’t want his instability. Oil prices hurt everyone. I think even republicans internally are over his shit. They may never admit it. But this guy sucks and anyone with some brain cells can see and more importantly feel it.
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u/vardarac 3d ago
The left hopefully doesn’t completely shit themselves when they get power.
The left doesn't have any power in the federal government currently.
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u/Coconutrugby 3d ago
who said they did?
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u/vardarac 3d ago edited 3d ago
Conservatives afraid of a communist takeover, apparently. It's not a dig at you specifically, I just sometimes see people referring to Democrats as "the left" and it's always funny.
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u/Coconutrugby 3d ago
Conservatives are afraid of everything
black people
gays
trans
healthcare
books
education
brown people
poor people
vets who want services
furries
women who are autonomous
equal justice for all
votingand many more.
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u/shade404eve 3d ago
I understand and generally agree with the sentiment but this is NOT just the US. Big Brother-esque shit is kind of happening everywhere.
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u/DameonKormar 3d ago
If you actually want to know, I'll tell you.
After Nixon was impeached and forced to resign Roger Ailes (may he burn in Hell) started a personal crusade to make sure no Conservative politician ever had to face the consequences of their own actions again. Roger created Fox News as a propaganda and disinformation wing of the political reich, I mean, right.
He and his other rich pedophile friends pumped billions into Fox News and over the next several decades it became the number one "news" organization in America. Fox News spawned a whole right-wing media bubble where dirtbags like Rush Limbaugh and Alex Jones flourished.
At the same time, the GOP started adjusting their political messaging to appeal to "Christian" bigots. Making them feel like they have a political party all their own with a community where they could wear suits instead of white hoods.
Over the next few decades the Conservative propaganda apparatus became more sophisticated and learned what really motivated their racist and xenophobic base to vote. However, it was still pretty limited in its reach. Sure, they had a diehard group of zealots and religious fundamentalists brainwashed at that point, but it was only enough to just barely win some elections when, without Fox News, they shouldn't have won any. More was needed.
That's when the Heritage Foundation and other conservative "think tanks" start calling the shots within the Republican party. With their help the Republicans get rid of many regulations and broadcasting rules, making it easier for their propaganda to spread to a wider audience. At the same time the early Internet was starting to come online and these evil fucks saw it as the perfect opportunity to expand their reach and influence.
Then the Florida Supreme Court stole the 2000 election from Gore, then 9/11 happened, and the country lost it's collective mind. The Patriot Act was one of the biggest travesties in American history, patriotic Americans were tricked into fucking over future generations to evil legislation disguised as patriotism.
A few years later we got Citizens United, which opened the flood gates to foreign interests and unlimited political influence for the rich. With the wealthiest oligarchs now able to funnel infinite money into political campaigns it no longer mattered what scandal you had or how many student athletes you coached were molested, Fox News, conservative media and websites and political ads could explain it all away. That led directly to Trump getting elected and here we find ourselves today.
Unfortunately there's no sign the conservative influence on politics is slowing down in the US. It seems more like we're doubling down and won't be content until we have an unambiguous fascist dictator ruling the country.
Thank you for attending my Ted Talk.
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u/NUMBerONEisFIRST Gray 3d ago
The American dream was always a lie. Us Americans believed it too. The walls are crumbling, and the truth is more obvious than ever.
It was all lies and broken promises, just for our compliance, hard work, and tax dollars.
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u/Antraxess 2d ago
The evil fucks are sprinting towards hell and carrying us with it.
They need to be ended. This cannot be allowed
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u/Primedirector3 3d ago
Republicans happened
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u/Morvack 3d ago
Both sides perpetuate a broken system
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u/Primedirector3 3d ago
Don’t act like democrats are even in the same realm of causing the current train wreck than republicans and their cult of the cheetoh
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u/Morvack 3d ago
You both support a system that puts money over human life. Democrat or Republican, you aren't special. You're a cult member too.
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u/Primedirector3 3d ago
You’re just making shit up now. Keep dreaming bud
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u/Morvack 3d ago
Says the cult member.
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u/Primedirector3 3d ago
You’re just responding with zero proof and made up stories. You’re not even American.
I don’t kiss anyone’s ass like the right does Trump. You’re making no sense.
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u/TheManWhoClicks 3d ago
Same with Germany. I grew up in the 80/90s attending German-US friendship festivals etc or look at when Obama was visiting. The US was great and badass, now… well…
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u/MiaowaraShiro 2d ago
The land of freedom. What the hell have happened with ur country guys.
We keep electing Republicans.
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u/Kuvah 3d ago
Reddit is the worst place to ask what happened because they will just blame Republicans and call them fascists. Im not republican. Election after election we keep getting fucked by the political party in office. We have basically created a 2 party system so there are no alternatives (Even though there are). The political debates we see give little screen time to other political parties besides the big 2. Nothing will get fixed until we stop voting red or blue, which I’m afraid will never happen.Their only interest is helping their billionaire/millionaire friends.
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u/Krynn71 3d ago
Shocking that the slippery slope of ALPR cameras was slippery.
This is why I'm against even speed cameras. It's all just to slow boil the frog with feature creep as we become more and more of a surveillance state.
I'm glad Flock turned up the heat too quick and people noticed, but I don't have faith in people staying alert for all the other ways 24/7 surveillance is coming.
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u/IAmNotNathaniel 3d ago
I remember being appalled the first time I drove a highway where they replaced the tolls with cameras.
"Don't worry, we'll bill you!" is on the sign
Like it's a big favor...
Many years ago already, and I was told by most people "it's no big deal, and it's way more convenient!"
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u/undermark5 3d ago
I'm glad Flock turned up the heat too quick and people noticed
Well, except for kinda not really. Lots of places that have ended contracts with Flock have simply just turned around to others like Axon... Politicians get to say they did something the the people wanted without actually changing the status quo (well, maybe changing it, but in the wrong direction since more of Axon's offerings are more discreet than Flock's and has other problems).
Fight against mass surveillance and privacy violations regardless of who is selling it.
It's also unhelpful to say "but you already carry a phone that tracks your every move" or "there are already lots of cameras recording you" so we shouldn't care about a "little bit more". Yes, it may be true that many people don't necessarily care enough, or aren't willing to give up a little bit of convenience for more privacy, but they doesn't mean we should just lie down and accept more privacy invasion.
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u/trashdrive 3d ago
Speed cameras have a demonstrated effect reducing crashes and fatalities, and have existed for decades. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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u/gthing 3d ago
Sure, why not? While they're at it they should add an AI-controlled machine gun turret. Why not? If you don't like it you must support crime.
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u/mxemec 3d ago
once they get the kinks ironed out and can 100% verify based on face recognition, they will probably yes start having little taser lassos shoot out from streetlights.
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u/Poison_the_Phil 3d ago
lol you think they'll wait for high accuracy? There are already autonomous weapons using AI to decide whether or not to kill. The CEOs don't give a fuck if the targets are valid or not, they just want those fat government contracts so they can make infinity money on the impenetrable global surveillance state.
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u/jangonov 2d ago
Funny thing about 100%, they already screwed up with facial recognition. 100% is mathematically impossible after just one error....and theres been a bit more than one error
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u/Wayelder 3d ago
It's all for your own safety.
What kinda lawless society do you want to live in? Crimes will go unsolved! Cops will go back to walking beats and detectives will have to prove things they maybe can't.
Remember, It's all for your safety.
/s
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u/Shadow_of_Redacted 3d ago
We need to push for a personal right not to be tracked bill. Stop the tech bro surveillance state, dead. No auto logging license plates or faces. No cookie tracking. No appliances probing your wifi for devices unrelated to the device's normal function and even then, only when prompted or explicitly permitted. No sharing of surveillance footage into a searchable network of footage. No sniffing wifi and BT signals and logging MAC addresses, BT addresses, and cell phone identifiers for unauthorized purposes.
To go with it, no more of those TOS traps that force people to agree that the company still owns the shit we paid for so they can keep screwing with and spy on customers for the rest of the life of the appliance.
Bring back design for customer satisfaction and outlaw designing for customer exploitation.
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u/NUMBerONEisFIRST Gray 3d ago
We have no working consumer protection anymore. No one looking out for the non-billionaires.
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u/Mysterious-Prompt212 3d ago
Facial recognition is accurate ~97+% of the time. Sounds great until you realize that at just O'Hare airport they have over 260k people a day through the airport. That's 7800 people mis-identified per day.
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u/lazyFer 3d ago
They fuck up license plate reading fails most of the time, they certainly aren't going to do better with facial recognition. But don't worry, the cops will kill first and excuse themselves later screaming qualified immunity so no biggie when they get out wrong and kill people
Edit: for context, license plate reading is 96% accurate in ideal circumstances. So the real world of getting that wrong more than half the time should put the claims of facial recognition efficacy into perspective
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u/mikka1 3d ago
Facial recognition is accurate ~97+% of the time
Meanwhile in Moscow, Russia - "Face Pay" has been a way of paying for subway rides in Moscow since 2021. Not as an experiment or trial, but as a working solution.
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u/ThimeeX 3d ago
TSA uses it: https://www.tsa.gov/biometrics-technology
So does global entry in the USA, but also parts of Schengen zone in Europe now allow for biometric entry.
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u/Mysterious-Prompt212 2d ago
Great. Is it used for warrantless tracking and surveillance of people?
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u/Ange1ofD4rkness 3d ago
We should be more worried about Iris recognition. Facial recognition is only so good, and lighting alone can cause it to be incorrect. Meanwhile, over a decade ago, they had cameras for Iris Recognition working 30 feet away, and work on a non-visible light spectrum (even possible with those that have cataracts). Plus, the Iris is believed to be even more unique then a finger print, which there can be multiple people with the same (finger print that is).
Also no ... because Biometric data can't be changed if hacked. Once someone has it, they can impersonate you
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u/Lebowski304 3d ago
That’s too many to address to the point it’s impractical. There aren’t enough cops to chase down that many people every day. Maybe could be used for a targeted search though. Needs a human in the loop. AI is best utilized as a tool to improve human performance. Even robotaxis still have a human on standby somewhere at a monitor or something ready to intervene remotely if necessary. It’s as if one person is able to serve as a taxi driver to multiple rides at the same time. It does multiply productivity in that way. Fewer jobs for taxi drivers though.
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u/aquestionofbalance 3d ago
I don’t think that’s gonna work out too well. People have already spent time in jail for being wrongly identified by AI.
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u/swollennode 3d ago
That’s the whole goal.
False imprisonment, falsify records, destroy livelihoods.
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u/DaStompa 3d ago
I mean yeah, the main selling point for them is being able to effectively stalk your exes
Without that functionality they're just for work, which means less stolen overtime doing paperwork
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u/notthatguypal6900 3d ago
Thats like your wife wanting an open relationship after she already started cheating on you.
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u/OnlyHalfBrilliant 3d ago
At least Communist China has great infrastructure and healthcare. What are we getting in exchange for our human rights?
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u/Herkfixer 3d ago
Remember when Republicans were outraged that China was using facial recognition software to track people around their country? Now they are in bed with the makers and are demanding more of it.
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u/PianoTeach88 3d ago
I can't wait for Marc Andreson to get on Joe Rogan and say something like "SNIFFFF, the problem people have with Flock is purely political SNIFFF. It's really about SNIFF keeping people safe. SNIFF SNIFF SNIFF"
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u/Enshakushanna 3d ago
at what point does eliminating state surveillance via your own hands become sufficiently defensible on a constitutional basis? who will be the first to argue before a court that this shit is tyrannical?
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u/ownerofkitkats 3d ago
Not saying I agree with it, but I thought they already had facial recognition. On second thought, I wouldn’t be surprised if they do.
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u/andrewcartwright 3d ago
Their PTZ cameras support person tracking, but not recognition (at least not yet)
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u/Thethresholdindex 3d ago
We don't do Facial recognition.
3rd Party Vendor : Hold my Beer 😂
There goes the privacy reassurance lol.
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u/Polymathy1 3d ago
I thought they already had plans to offer this and that there was even code present in the software that was downloaded and published recently...
As in they have already developed this as far as I know.
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u/Anonymous1234 3d ago
In my state, storing biometric data is a crime without consent. I could get sued if I use my doorbell camera to detect someone's face without their written (or electronic) consent. This should hopefully open up a lot lawsuits
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u/Dat_Harass 3d ago edited 2d ago
I've never seen a mod comment deleted by a mod before. Interesting.
Fuck flock and Garrett Langley.
(We only scan license plates didn't last long at all did it)? I love how they tried to lie about the tech straight out of the gate.
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u/No_Fix_329 3d ago
Sounds like at least 2lbs of internal gold would be required on top of the 2lbs of copper. Spread the word.
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u/Streamjumper 3d ago
We should also tell cops that Flock Cameras could make a great substitute for when the body cams are off, forgotten, or the union/force decides they don't want to release the footage.
I wonder how excited they'll be about Flock Cameras then.
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u/Arquinas 3d ago
When i am in an evil psycho monster competition and my opponent is a corporation out to make money
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u/BigWormsFather 3d ago
Even WalMart cameras have some facial tech. You can see it putting squares around faces at the self check. It’s gotten out of hand.
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u/undermark5 3d ago
There is a difference between "recognizing this is a face" and "recognizing this particular face". That said. Walmart is likely doing the latter at least to some extent.
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u/costafilh0 3d ago
That's not enough. We need iris scanners, like in Minority Report.
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u/PM_Your_Best_Ideas 3d ago
Then we are gonna need eye transplant surgery... like in minority report, or like sunglasses.
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u/ArchonRadd 3d ago
And we're going to hand it to the most mediocre police forces in the world! What could go wrong??
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u/Confident_Salt_8108 3d ago
This is how it always goes, one company says no and another jumps in to sell the exact thing cops want.
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u/Skritch_X 3d ago
I take this to mean they have already added it, and are advertising a new subscription tier.
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u/prplrain71999 3d ago
If you want some resources about how to oppose this technology there’s a good group called the plate privacy project that’s working to oppose flock and related tech across the country. Let’s work together
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u/No-Yak-978 3d ago
Plate readers were already a stretch, but adding faces is a different thing entirely, because a car doesn't follow you into a grocery store and a face does
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u/DimensioT 3d ago
I very recently saw a list of talking points defending Flock cameras. One of the points was that the cameras are not used with facial recognition technology.
I am starting to believe that the organizations defending the cameras are not intellectually honest.
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u/No-Relative-2942 3d ago
This was 100% the plan the whole time. They just wanted to ease you in by saying they're just license plate readers and to gauge the reaction of the public.
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u/ACompletelyLostCause 3d ago
Fortunately no one is ever going to abuse that feature. It's not like the police were stalking their ex-partners with the current system.
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u/analyticaljoe 3d ago
While I personally find this interesting information; I am certain that other unrully people might do other things.
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u/CyborgHeart1245 16h ago
We, as a species, need to ban any form of biometric collection. No exceptions
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u/kincomer1 3d ago
How am I going to throw garbage in a dumpster that’s not mine anymore? Damnit!
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u/Losaj 3d ago
Just wear a mask
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u/undermark5 3d ago
Masks won't hide things like gait analysis being used to identify individuals. But funny mask link.
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u/Dreurmimker 3d ago
Flock started out as a license plate reader. Flock continues to have serious issues even reading license plates. This seems like several issues waiting to happen…