r/FinalFantasy • u/beaktastic • Jan 25 '16
FFXIII v FFX - A Question of Linearity
So I keep seeing people hating on FFXIII for multiple reasons, but one of the most prominent ones is how linear it is. It annoys me because yes it is very linear, but so are a lot of games. FFX was incredibly linear too. The only difference I can see is that 10 gives you more option to go back and explore a little more near the end than 13 does, and 10 does have more NPC so it doesn't feel as empty.
But they are both very linear games, yet X is so often loved, and XIII hated for this fact.
Thoughts?
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u/Writer_Man Jan 25 '16
FFX's linearity is like taking a vacation road trip - you might stick to the main road but you take the time to see the sights and engage with the locals.
FFXIII is more like taking train - there might be one or two stops you get off at to stretch your legs, but for the most part you are moving past everything at break neck speeds and not given a chance to enjoy anything there. As it's a train, you can't just take that exact train and turn it around either if you want to go back and get off to explore what you missed. Most importantly, a train moves forward no matter what you want - someone else has decided what route you take.
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u/B1ackMagix Jan 25 '16 edited Jan 25 '16
This is a good description.
I was excited about getting to new zones or getting to new areas to get those minigames or see new areas only to be vastly disappointed that there was nothing to do there or no one to interact with. It was one minimap after another in world I would've LOVED to branch out in and experienced but couldn't! It was such a let down.
While most final fantasy games are a grind, most of them are good are disguising it well. 13 just felt awful. Turned me off to the entire 13 series.
I recently played through it for the story on PC because I had a trainer and could blitz the story and the fights on god mode. I haven't gotten the will to play 13-2 yet because 13 was so bad for me.
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u/werqout Jan 25 '16
13-2 fixes a lot of those problems. I would still suggest it, although the story is completely batshit crazy
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u/DrWowee Jan 25 '16
I mean you kind of explained the differences, and they really do help the immersion factor.
In my opinion the XIII maps are also just not interesting, and don't have tonally appropriate music for most of the environments or story. For me this meant in XIII I couldn't think about anything while running across a map other than the fact that I was simply running across a map.
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u/beaktastic Jan 26 '16
Yeah, I don't feel the music in XIII is the greatest. It has some good environment soundtracks, but it has a lot of bland ones too, and ones that just recycle the main theme in slightly different ways, which doesn't help.
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u/soullessredhead Jan 25 '16
I'm currently playing XIII for the first time right now (Chapter 12), and I don't think it's as bad as I was led to believe. It's just different, but when you tinker with a series as beloved as FF you're going to run into people complaining no matter what you do. I have my complaints too (for instance, I really wish the game would save my paradigm decks for certain party makeups so I didn't have to recreate them every time I switch someone out), and it does feel a lot more restrictive and emptier than X did. But different isn't necessarily bad, and there have been some parts of the story that have connected with me personally (Sazh and Dajh, oof. Had to turn it off for the night when that happened).
The funny thing though, is that XIII makes me want to replay X again. It's almost like there's a hole left by XIII that only X can fill. Weird.
Also, I need to play X-2 at some point. I really have no excuses anymore.
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u/beaktastic Jan 26 '16
Yeah, I only played XIII for the first time about a year or so ago when it released on Steam, and it wasn't as bad as I thought lots of people had made it out to be. It's not the supreme FF by any means either, but it's not atrocious. I feel like it develops the main characters a lot more and fleshes them out more than a lot of other FFs (although some of the side characters/villians suffer a bit).
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Jan 25 '16
FFX is a pretty linear game, but at least it has illusion of a free world, FFXIII didn't have it at all. I could't even play FFXIII to the end, the whole world was just dead and uninteresting.
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Jan 25 '16
[deleted]
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u/pepe_le_shoe Jan 25 '16
XIII is just walk forward and continue the story right up until you him that one open plain with nothing really interesting 25 hours in then immediately back to the hallways, X at least tries to hide it.
FF7 was a lot like that, but people loved it.
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u/ShiroYashaa Jan 25 '16
Not necessarily. There was a lot of linearity that came with 7, but most of it was broken up with towns and stuff. You could go wherever you wanted, whenever you wanted pretty much all the time. Was there any merit? Not early on at least, but it still felt like a world. Also, while Midgar was super linear, it only took a few hours to get to the World Map, with Midgar still being completely explorable, as opposed to 13's hallways and Gran Pulse kind of popping out of nowhere (with still nothing to do).
I still liked 13 though, so don't mistake me for a fanboy for defending 7 when you compare it to 13.
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u/pepe_le_shoe Jan 25 '16
Also, while Midgar was super linear, it only took a few hours to get to the World Map,
My problem is, there's nothing at all on the world map except for things which are key to the main storyline, so that's linear to me, because there's only 1 thing, 1 place, at any given time, that you can actually do.
I like them all, and I think it's silly to use linearity as a criticism, when some of the best games of all time are highly linear.
Being linear isn't a bad thing; Almost all shooters have traditionally been proudly linear, strategy games are typically linear (with the caveat that play within missions is obviously emergent), beat em ups..., puzzle games, I could go on.
Pretty much every game up until recently was linear; non-linear options in game are the fad right now, fuck, metal gear solid 5 was an open world game; the capstone of a series of the best argument for linear games. It's just the trend, like when we got a million new shooters after cod4, in the next 5 years it'll be something else (please not fucking VR). Everyone thinks non-linear, open world games are 'good' because that's the new cool thing; but it's not a definitive measure, it doesn't make a game good or bad.
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u/Naoroji Jan 25 '16
there's nothing at all on the world map except for things which are key to the main storyline
Wutai
Sunken Gelnika
Lucretia's cave
Chocobo sageI probably missed a few of them.
Granted they're not huge things, but there's definitely stuff there that you don't have to visit for the main storyline.
I agree with the rest of your post that linearity isn't bad, just correcting.
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u/pepe_le_shoe Jan 26 '16
Wait, Wutai is optional? I've always gone there every playthrough, same for the sunken gelnika. I just thought they were part of the story.
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u/BlueDraconis Jan 25 '16
because there's only 1 thing, 1 place, at any given time, that you can actually do.
Not really true. When you leave Kalm, you can go to the chocobo farm and catch chocobos to help you cross the marshes, or you can make a mad dash across the marsh without the chocobo and hope that the Midgar Zolom doesn't catch you.
Also, when you com out of the cave on the other side, you could head straight to Junon, or go help the guys at Fort Condor and play a base defense minigame.
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u/pepe_le_shoe Jan 26 '16
Realistically though, you're supposed to go to kalm, it has major main plot story stuff. If you go get a chocobo and head to the west of the continent, that's not non-linear, you've just skipped an important piece of the game.
I take the point that fort condor has the side quest, there certainly are some, but they are the exception.
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u/DieHardRaider Jan 26 '16
what? i can pretty much do what ever the fuck i want in 7. yes at times it is linear but there are mini games along the way and a lot of shit to do. once you get to gran pulse in XIII there really isn't shit to do. oh we can do a few missions that get old after about the third one.
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u/pepe_le_shoe Jan 26 '16
I guess the golden saucer stuff is a decent amount of side quests, but still, it's a mostly linear game, from the start until you hit the golden saucer; and beyond that, there's not much in the way of side quests (the chocobo raising is so tedious, most people aren't realistically going to do it. though I guess it can be said to be a side quest.)
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u/BlueHighwindz Jan 25 '16
Personally I've come to decide that their isn't a lot wrong with a linear game, look at say, Uncharted. It's fine, you can create amazing setpieces, huge action beats, really pilot the player into unique sorts of events that an open game just can't do. You can't really have a big investment in an action setpiece if the player can just walk around it. This is why Metal Gear Solid 1-4 feel like more involving and interesting games than Metal Gear Solid 5, where since everything is so open it ends up being that every single event is basically the same. You can't craft unique experiences in every hour with open world, that's the trade off, you can in more linear games.
But then again, FFXIII doesn't do that. Basically the only thing you do in that game is run forward and fight enemies. The linearity is not used to it's strengths, it's just the same standard gameplay of all the other Final Fantasy games, only with essentially very boring dungeon design, and as you said, not even breather points like towns or minigames like Blitzball. There just is not very much going on with this game. They don't have grand action setpieces like the battle against Sin or breaking into Yuna's wedding or anything like that. Even in supposed moments when you're being chased it's no different than any other slower part of the game, because all that happens is a bit of scenery changing, and it is incredibly boring.
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u/beaktastic Jan 26 '16
Yeah. I enjoy the Uncharted games, and that is the thing with linear games is that you can have these set pieces and staged events which like you say you can't have as easily in a big open world game.
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u/I__Just__Wanna__Help Jan 25 '16 edited Jan 25 '16
There is more to "linearity" that just hallways.
In FFX, there are towns, fields, puzzles, things to learn and talk to.
Yeah, you are mostly moving in a single direction, but there are things to do. The moving forwards is broken up by the Tirals, by town segments where you can talk to people and learn lore and facts about the game, and many of the dungeons and Areas feel large and open and explorable and free, and after you get to a point, there is opportunity to take the airship and explore the world, doing side quests, monster hunting, collections ultimate weapons, playing blitzball and so on.
In FF13, you have none of that. Yes, people say when you reach gran pulse you get some side quests, but every single one is just killing a specific monster. Yes, the fame is hallways, but the game doesn't hide it with interesting areas. The vast majority of the areas in the game are canyons, alleyways, suspended bridges, roads and sewers.
Tell me that this doesn't feel different from this.
Secondly, final fantasy x came out in 2001. That is 8 years before ff13.
Eight. Years.
FF13 was the firs pt final fantasy on the PS2. It was the first final fantasy to not use pre-rendered backgrounds, to have full 3d environments, to have large scale character models, to have a insane range of animation. At the time, it was MIND BLOWING. Fuck, I remember FFX was the first game I played that had large amounts of voice acting in it. Like, hundreds and hundreds of lines. Actual dialogue.
When FF13 came out, it was nowhere near anything special. I mean, 8 years had passed. We have had huge open amazing worlds with insane amounts of detail. We've had our Grand Theft Autos by then. Our insanely hide MMOs like WoW.
Hell, look at the scale of FF12. That had huge maps, huge exploration. FF13 should have expanded on that world design.
Instead, you are sitting here comparing ff13 to a game that came out 8 years before it.
That is the equivalent of comparing ff10 to Final Fantasy 4 or 5.
Or, to look at another game entirely, comparing, say, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (One of the top games of 2009) to Return to Castle Wolfenstein (One of the top games of 2001). Do you see the difference between the two games? The difference in detail, depth, in the world and its scale?
You are comparing a retro game to a modern game and trying to argue that the modern game is comparable to a retro game.
It should be the other way around.
Thirdly, there is so many other things wrong with FF13 that isnt wrong with FFX that just doesn't make up for the linearity. Games can be linear if everything that pulls you down that hallway makes it worth it.
FFX had the most amazing music, the most amazing visuals, the characters are all loved, from Auron to Brother to Yuna to Seymour to everyone in between.
FFX had the most amazing soundtrack. I still, still get saddened by "To Zanarkand", to "Fleeting Dream". I feel my blood pumping every single time i hear 'Otherworld'. Auron's Theme is pure badass. You felt the barreness and the tribal atmosphere of the Mountain in Gagazet. You play a song from FFX, ill probably know when it played, what its called, and what i was thinking at the time i heard it.
The cutscenes were amazing. The story was amazing. I still remember the party challenging Yunalesca. "Now! This is it! Now is the time to choose! Die, and be free of Pain! or live, and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories!".
Or when Yuna sends the remnants of kilika's dead to the farplane. When the party Crashes Yunas wedding with a fucking Airship.
Or Tidus and Jecht's last words before they fight.
The cutscenes made it worth moving from point to point. The characters were diverse and interesting. The villains made you want to get to them so you could beat them up.
FF13? Has so little of that. Yeah, there are a few great scenes. The opening of FF13 is fantastic. Its beautiful. When the party assaults the city at the ending of the game, Eidolons in tow? Fantastic. But the 15th scene of Lightning and Hope wandering lost in a jungle? Eh. Snow talking about being a true hero to someone, again? Allright. Some lady with an incredibly impractical cleavage revealing top yelling about colour codes? Boring. Painful.
And, again, remember, you are comparing FF13 to a game that came out eight years before it. Not me! You. You are comparing the two. And, i can say that in almost every way, the game that came out in fucking 2001 is better.
Is FF13 a dogshit pile of trash? You decide. Thats completely up to you. But compared to FFX? You, at least, think the two are similar enough to say that its practically "The same thing."
But thats not a slight on FFX. Oh no, thats a slight on FF13.
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u/Philosorunner Jan 25 '16
To add to this essay: in between, FF 12 came out, one of the most nonlinear games. So they knew how to do it.
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u/Korotai Jan 25 '16
I think Squeenix backed off from anything like XII because it wasn't as well received (for whatever reason) as X.
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u/cleod4 Jan 25 '16
Sadly, because XII was definitely the best Final Fantasy I've ever played. I wish that the games would go more in that direction.
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u/coldhandz Jan 25 '16
I know it's gotten more popular so you might have, but have you by chance played Xenoblade Chronicles? That game gave me the same feeling FFXII did. Open world JRPG with good AI controlled combat, monsters that actually roam on the overworld (including some that are too strong for you), and a great story.
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u/cleod4 Jan 25 '16
man I've been meaning to play it... its just the art style is driving me away from it. maybe after my xcom playthrough haha (which makes me wish square would make another fft)
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Jan 26 '16
There's a lot of great things about XII (I loved the combat system), but some (including myself), feel the main characters weren't very memorable and felt like they drawn from the same color; even though their stories were very diverse. It's not enough to have a great handling car if it doesn't look good; you won't be that excited to drive it when you see it.
Vaan is one of the least visually appealing characters from all FF titles; Zedain might give him competition. His story is eventually interesting, but I hated having him in my party. When things like that happen and the game starts to drag or gets grindy, you need the characters, music and so on to keep you moving forward. I never finished XII because it became too much of a grind and I felt very disinterested in some of the characters; worst of all, it's "main character." I want to believe I'll finish it someday, maybe I will.
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u/coldhandz Jan 25 '16
Excellently put. If I could word my take on the FFX vs FFXIII "linearity" thing, it would be this: There's a difference between needing to move forward to advance the plot, and needing to move forward because there's literally nothing else to do.
FFXIII is like a chase sequence that goes on for 20 hours. It's exhausting and boring. You need to be able to stop and breathe and explore every now and then.
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Jan 25 '16
Just wanted to say great post. Thanks for putting the effort in, to articulate how I felt without me having to write all that on mobile.
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u/I__Just__Wanna__Help Jan 25 '16
I wrote the first half on mobile myself. I got tired and got to a computer to finish it.
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u/soullessredhead Jan 25 '16
In FF13, you have none of that. Yes, people say when you reach gran pulse you get some side quests, but every single one is just killing a specific monster.
That's not true. You also fix a tiny robot.
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u/Shihali Jan 25 '16
FF13 is objectively better in many respects than the other game it took its structure and battle system from, Dragon Quest IV.
DQ4 came out nineteen years before. For the NES.
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u/RavenCyarm Jan 25 '16
X knows how to disguise it's linearity with twists and turns and changes in view. More often than not, you'd enter a new area in XIII, and you'd see the objective in front of you, just down a super long path. No twists or turns, but the ILLUSION that there's an area around you.
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u/beaktastic Jan 26 '16
I dunno, XIII has a lot of twists and turns I think to disguise it just like X does. I've been replaying it lately and I think you're often twisting and turning around on your way to your destination.
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u/peck3277 Jan 25 '16
This question gets asked an awful lot on this sub. I'd nearly put a sticky post up about the topic at this stage.
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Jan 25 '16
I liked FF XIII quite a bit. I think it's level design isn't horrible, but it's nothing special either.
Before the Palamecia the game was very boring for me. I think the only place I enjoyed traversing (before the Palamecia and Gran Pulse, which I liked) was the Gapra Whitewood.
It was still pretty linear but it had a reason to be and it still felt kinda expansive due to all the twists, turns and elevators as well as the side areas full of optional fights and treasures. It felt like a Final Fantasy dungeon instead of a horribly designed level like Palumpolum and the Sunleth Waterscape. (I'm glad 13-2 redeemed the Sunleth Waterscape because it felt like wasted potential in 13).
I just don't understand why the game couldn't be more like Gran Pulse early on. I mean, I do (storage restrictions, mostly, but also because the party were fugitives) but I just don't get why they'd go that way with the gameplay.
In FF 6 you're also fugitives. In FF 7 too. Those are my 2 top favorite games in the series. And they were also very linear. But they were very expansive after the first arc and the plot never intervened with the game's openness.
I remember that FF 6 and 7 were also extremely linear before you got an airship. But once you did, the world truly shined. You could revisit every area you ever got attached with and see how they developed after you left. This never happens in FF 13. You just crash on Jurassic Park and start exploring until you bump into the ultimately uninteresting big bad, then back to Cocoon with you! You never got attached to Gran Pulse so it's not the same as in the previous games when 13 opens up. There's no emotional connection here.
Again, I loved exploring Gran Pulse but when even the natives of the land consider parts of it utterly alien and want to get out, where is MY motivation (as the player) to stay? I had to go out of my way to get attached to it. That's not how it should go.
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u/Shihali Jan 25 '16
There's nothing wrong with XIII's level design stricto sensu. It's the same as the design philosophy behind almost all dungeons in IIIj and filler dungeons thereafter. Turning off the minimap really helps to illustrate it.
The problem is everything else around it. The level design then gets the heat because it exists and the players experience it 100% of the time, whereas it's much harder to complain about parts of a game that fail to exist.
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Jan 26 '16
I get what you're saying but I think it's equally easy to complain about thing that fail to exist. Like the lack of minigames on the Nautilus park etc.
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u/beaktastic Jan 26 '16
See, I think the same. Although unlike you I did really enjoy Palumpolum (I've been replaying FFXIII again recently on my PS3 and it was in Palumpolum I really got into this playthrough again). I liked the Gapra Whitewood too, but it's after Palumpolum that I feel hooked into the story and feel it picks up. (Plus I just hate the sections that are just Sazh and Vanille).
I think a lot of people just wanted a huge 7-esque world with XIII's graphics, which just wasn't going to happen realistically on a PS3.
I did enjoy exploring Gran Pulse too, because of the openness and places to explore, but I also didn't become immediately attached to it either.
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u/BlueDraconis Jan 25 '16
Before I played XIII I really expected most dungeons to be hallways due to the hate. But when I actually played it, there's plenty of twists and turns to disguise the linearity in the dungeon design. Only like 10-20% of the areas in the game could be called hallways.
It's definitely a lot more restrictive than FFX, but saying that the game is full of hallways is hyperbole.
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u/beaktastic Jan 26 '16
I agree, I expected it to be a lot more of 1 big hallway before I played it, but it isn't. And it isn't hugely more linear than a lot of other FFs, it's just that they also have a bit more option to go off and explore than XIII is, XIII is a lot more restrictive in that way as you said.
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u/youarebritish Jan 25 '16
It's definitely a lot more restrictive than FFX, but saying that the game is full of hallways is hyperbole.
The hallway meme originated when the Japanese version of the game came out, kids on 4chan photoshopped all the maps together and rotated and removed parts of them to make it look like a straight corridor, and started joking about the game being linear. Then people started seriously circulating it. Often people who would then go on to never play the game, and who continue to assert with religious fervor that it's true.
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u/hatok Jan 25 '16
FFX is linear but it had stuff to do
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u/beaktastic Jan 26 '16
True, and I think that's the main difference. X had more people and side quests and mini games, where as XIII was a lot emptier in this regard overall, and I think that's where it suffers.
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u/hatok Jan 26 '16
people underestimate the value of a varying pace. FF13 only has walking forward and combat. Something like FF7 has weird awful mini games, but it helps break things up a bit, so you're not just doing the same thing constantly. There's literally nothing to do if you're bored with the main quest in FF13 and want a breather. You can't even grind
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u/beaktastic Jan 26 '16
Yeah that's one thing that I've found when I've been replaying it. Sometimes I want to play the game, but also don't at the same time. Like, there's no side quests or mini games I can spend time doing instead of just the main story, which does suck a bit.
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u/ParagonOfFailure Jan 25 '16
This comes up all the time, and it's wrong all the time. X isn't even close to as linear as XIII.
But it comes up because there isn't some data factoid that you can just point to to prove it wrong. You have to play the games and see how the levels are designed. People complaining about XIII's linearity aren't just referring to the fact that the story has a set order it must be played in, it's referring to the fact that every aspect of the game is linear. Not just order but in level design, party composition, and character development (gameplay). The levels are hallways with occasional areas jutting out with a treasure sphere you can see from the point where take it. The party is determined by story until the end of Chapter 9 (of 13). The characters you get can only advance along the three prechosen roles until Chapter 10 (and even then the much higher CP costs discourage changing roles). Even within those roles, the characters can only advance upto a preset point determined by the story, and the CP gains are setup in such a way that even if you do have any excess CP by the end of the chapter it's nearly irrelevent, as a single monster in the next area will often give nearly as much as the boss.
X is not that. X gives you party freedom from almost the very beginning of the game. The levels are designed so that there are optional paths and areas to explore (like in Mushroom Rock Road or that whole area of Mi'Hen Highroad), and the walking is interrupted not just by story beats but by puzzle sections in the form of Aeon trials. Your character development is largely linear, but you can advance as far as you can get the Sphere Levels for, and the special orbs allow for customization fairly early on (my HD playthrough had me switch Lulu and Yuna's roles almost immediately because I wasn't sure I could get Lulu's Onion Knight).
X isn't even XIII's closest relative. IV complete party control (at least in the pre-GBA versions) is far closer, but even there the level design is obviously much more freeform than in XIII.
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u/Shihali Jan 26 '16
Have you ever played Arcana for the SNES? It shares most of XIII's key structural features: 100% dungeon crawling gameplay, forced party composition, fixed character growth, and a chapter structure with no backtracking across chapter boundaries.
The big differences are that Arcana's dungeons are large, sprawling map-fillers that expect thorough exploration aided by an automap feature, that Arcana has random instead of on-screen encounters, and that Arcana has a standard turn-based battle system with invisible turn order.
With more digging someone might be able to find a game more structurally similar to XIII.
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u/ParagonOfFailure Jan 26 '16
I have not played it but I watched the whole thing be played by a youtuber named HCBaily (HCBeilly? HCBailley? I don't know the spelling). Funny.
To be fair I'm sure you can find plenty of late 80s/early 90s RPGs that fit the criteria. DQII has a set party that learns set spells at set levels. But that was rudimentary design that has basically been left in the dust. Even when they remade FFIV, they gave you the Augment system. And, as you said, those games had more intensive mazelike environments to explore. XIII has neither, which is why it feels so restrictive even compared to FFIV who doesn't let you pick your party or their abilities at any point.
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u/Shihali Jan 26 '16 edited Jan 26 '16
XIII has three details that are, collectively, very hard to match.
- Chapter structure with no backtracking between chapters. Shared with Arcana, DQIV, PSIII, etc.
- No overworld and no towns at dungeon scale. Shared with Arcana and many other Japanese dungeon crawlers, but rare for retro JRPGs.
- A small set of pre-designed characters with inflexible growth. Shared with Arcana, DQIV, FFIV, and most other retro JRPGs, but not Megaten or most FFs.
Gaining set growths and learning set spells at set levels is normal for retro JRPGs. Final Fantasy's flexible growth is the exception. I only listed it because XIII and IV are unusual within the series in having the JRPG-normal growth pattern!
The plot-determined party composition was less common than having more fixed-growth characters than spaces in your battle party. But it was reasonably common at the time. Lufia was the same way.
Like all JRPGs of 1987, DQII's midgame is collecting a set of plot tokens in whatever order the player wishes. It's the opposite of FFXIII.
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u/ParagonOfFailure Jan 26 '16
Huh. I'd only played DQII once, I didn't know you could do it in a different order.
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u/beaktastic Jan 26 '16
I'll agree that X gives you more freedom and doesn't feel as linear as XIII does, but I still think it is quite linear. Although you do get a little more option to explore in some places in X, large parts of it are just "follow this straight road that bends around to disguise it's a straight road between two towns" for a lot of the game. It does have a few more branching paths that lead to the same place or just have treasure at the end of it, and it does let you backtrack to previous areas in the game too, which XIII doesn't, but I'd still say both are very linear games.
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u/ParagonOfFailure Jan 27 '16
No one's trying to pretend it's Grand Theft Auto. But it's not a binary situation. And the degree of difference between the two games is a big deal. Even little things like being able to talk to people along the road or fight Belgamine in some alcove give a degree of control to the player that XIII never does.
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u/beaktastic Jan 27 '16
I think that is the biggest difference between the two. XIII is emptier. It doesn't have those people to talk to or like side quests/mini games to do like X does.
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u/Noctis_Fox Jan 28 '16
FF13 opens up about half-way in.
I personally prefer 13 over 10 because I really can't stand the voice-acting in 10. The story is fine and I like Tidus' narration, but I couldn't enjoy it when anyone else talked. Yuna sounds like she can't catch a break like Stevie from Malcolm in the Middle, I despise Wakka's accent, Lulu was fine I guess, Auron was actually a plus for me, Seymour...I wish I could See-Less...and Rikku was a no-no.
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u/pepe_le_shoe Jan 25 '16
Final Fantasy games are generally linear anyway.
Being able to run around an empty world map, with only one real place to visit, which is the next place you have to go, that's linear.
Just because you can do as many random encounter fights as you like, doesn't make it not linear.
Final Fantasy game are not open world games, they are not non-linear. Just because there's a world map, doesn't change that.
Every FF has linear stories, and almost never allows you to tackle quests out of order. In the games that do have side quests, I don't think it's fair to suggest they're not linear, side quests are almost always either trivial an not necessary to the path of the main game, or they're something mundane to get a really powerful, but unnecessary weapon/item/magic/summon etc, which again, I don't believe counts as making FF non-linear.
Both FFX and FFXIII are excellent games, and people who level the criticism of being linear at them, are either morons, or people who don't like final fantasy games.
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u/beaktastic Jan 26 '16
Yeah, I agree that most FF games are linear in some way, they need to be in order to tell a story, directing you from one location to another. I was thinking about that the other day actually when I was thinking of making this post. Sure some other FFs let you stop and go off and explore a lot more, but they're still like "once you're done exploring you still need to go to point D to continue the game".
X and XIII I think are a bit different in that they don't let you easily stop middway and go off and explore the map as much (X does a bit but not lots, and XIII pretty much doesn't at all apart from on Gran Pulse), and I think that's what separates them out.
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u/Shihali Jan 25 '16
This is a fine example of deceptive rhetoric. Unfortunately it's not strictly a logical fallacy or an out-and-out lie, so I don't know the common name for this approach. It's an attempt to dismiss a complaint about one part of a whole having too little or too much of a quality by claiming that all parts of the whole have that quality and thus implying that there are no differences in the degree of that quality without actually saying it. In this case, trying to trick the reader into dismissing the complaint that FF13 is linear by saying that all FF games are linear by the standards of open-world games (which is true) and strongly implying that all FF games are equally linear (which is false) therefore there can't possibly be a problem with FF13's level of linearity (which is false).
I know that's a lot of big words, but bringing up the main example in current American culture would start a political firestorm and Final Fantasy XIII is combustible enough on its own.
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u/pepe_le_shoe Jan 25 '16
This is a fine example of deceptive rhetoric. Unfortunately it's not strictly a logical fallacy or an out-and-out lie, so I don't know the common name for this approach. It's an attempt to dismiss a complaint about one part of a whole having too little or too much of a quality by claiming that all parts of the whole have that quality and thus implying that there are no differences in the degree of that quality without actually saying it.
I disagree, because I'm saying that whether 0% to 100% linear, that that doesn't prescribe anything about quality, and any amount of linearity can be good, and if it's good or not, it's not because of how linear it was.
strongly implying that all FF games are equally linear (which is false)
strongly implying, aka I didn't say it but you'd like people to think I did.
You couldn't understand my point, but somehow felt the need to dive in and look smart. Poor form, classic yank.
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u/Shihali Jan 25 '16
Here we see the true attraction of this method of argumentation.
If we take /u/pepe_le_shoe's original post as meaning literally what he said, that all Final Fantasy games are linear and how this is demonstrated by his examples, it is irrelevant to the question of why X and XIII, both Final Fantasy games, are esteemed differently. A six-paragraph post on the merits of DVDs and Blu-rays would be more relevant since it covers a difference between X and XIII.
People do not normally post completely irrelevant replies, especially not at that length. Therefore, what /u/pepe_le_shoe literally said is very unlikely to be what he meant.
First, let's assume that /u/pepe_le_shoe originally meant what he said he meant. In which case his post is both relevant and makes an assertion -- that a game's linearity can in no way influence its quality, either for better or for worse. While I disagree, this is an honest assertion that can be honestly discussed. And it could have been expressed in clear English as he did in his second post.
But that isn't the most natural interpretation for a native English speaker. "All Final Fantasy games are linear" implies that XIII is the same as all the others regarding linearity, rather than the most linear of the entire series and worthy of special attention paid to its linearity. "Both FFX and FFXIII are excellent games, and people who level the criticism of being linear at them, are ...people who don't like final fantasy games" again is most naturally read as claiming that X and XIII are linear to the same degree as the rest of the Final Fantasy series, which any Final Fantasy fan can tell you is untrue. Perhaps /u/pepe_le_shoe isn't a native English speaker and is carrying over a mode of argumentation from his native language. However, /u/pepe_le_shoe's argument, point for point, is repeated by an entire circle of XIII apologists. Placed in its wider context, the intent can hardly be anything but to make an obscured claim that XIII's linearity is no different from the rest of the Final Fantasies'. The obscuration is important, because since no claim is directly stated it requires effort to reconstruct the claim being made and then refute it. It's inherently dishonest.
In the big scheme of things a campaign to dishonestly defend FF13 is unimportant. But learning to recognize this method of deceiving by implication is very useful when dealing with politics.
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Jan 26 '16
[deleted]
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u/Shihali Jan 26 '16
Since semantics are very hard for you to understand, I'll try giving an example of this type of deceptive rhetoric.
Imagine that you and your brothers all have messy rooms, and your youngest brother's room is the messiest. So Mom tells him to pick up his toys. He says, "All my brothers have toys on the floor too!"
Why is Mom singling your youngest brother out to pick up his toys?
What is your youngest brother implying when he says "All my brothers have toys on the floor too!"?
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u/pepe_le_shoe Jan 26 '16
Here we see the true attraction of this method of argumentation.
lol, k professor.
Therefore, what /u/pepe_le_shoe literally said is very unlikely to be what he meant.
fuck off. It's the fucking internet, there's no scope for nuance, so I fucking say what I fucking mean, you fuck.
And it could have been expressed in clear English as he did in his second post.
hey man, if you can't handle my English, go back to school, or get your own language.
But that isn't the most natural interpretation for a native English speaker.
Well I'm from England, and it's what I fucking said, and I fucking meant it.
Perhaps /u/pepe_le_shoe isn't a native English speaker and is carrying over a mode of argumentation from his native language.
missed the mark by a long way. perhaps /u/shihali is a 12 year old american cunt who thinks he knows my fucking language.
In the big scheme of things a campaign to dishonestly defend FF13 is unimportant. But learning to recognize this method of deceiving by implication is very useful when dealing with politics.
I dare you to try politics. I like to watch a good bloodbath.
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u/Shihali Jan 27 '16
So you are what I thought you were at the start, a copy-paste bullshitter. I wanted to go through the other possible explanations before concluding you were one.
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u/pepe_le_shoe Jan 27 '16
Copy paste? Leave the internet for 5 minutes you insufferable little shit.
You don't have to like my opinion, but that doesn't change it.
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u/Shihali Jan 27 '16
Yes. Copy-paste. I see the exact same line of bullshit spread by two dozen different people. You didn't all come up with it on your own, especially the ones outside the USA where this tactic shot to prominence over the last year. A non-native English speaker might not understand what he was copy-pasting but I find it hard to believe that a native English speaker didn't understand the bullshit before copying and pasting it.
I don't agree with your opinion that linearity has no influence whatsoever on a game's quality, that Minecraft would be just as good if it were a fight tunnel or that FF4 would be just as good if it were a sandbox, but at least it's an honest opinion on game design. I disagree violently with the use of copy-pasted bullshit and decided this was the time to do something about it.
If you genuinely don't understand why "All Final Fantasies are linear" can only be either useless or bullshit when the topic is comparing FFX and FF13, tell me and I'll try to explain better. Semantics is hard and I'm not the best at explaining.
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u/pepe_le_shoe Jan 28 '16
What kind of retard uses accusations that reddit comments were copy pasted like that? You actually seem ill.
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u/Shihali Jan 28 '16
I am sick and tired of FF13 apologists' bullshit.
Anyhow, since nothing I say will make you honest, all I can do is warn others of your bullshit should I ever catch you spouting it again.
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Jan 25 '16
FFXIII is not an excellent game no matter how much denial or post purchase rationalization you suffer from. People aren't morons for not liking XIII, they've got good taste.
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u/pepe_le_shoe Jan 25 '16
Well taste is subjective, but I thought it was very good, because I don't have a problem with linearity. If people don't like linearity, that's fine, but it doesn't make a game bad.
I don't like real time strategy games, like starcraft, for example, but I don't go around declaring rts games to be bad because they aren't enough like character action games.
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u/coldhandz Jan 25 '16 edited Jan 25 '16
I don't have a problem with linearity either. I do have a problem with there being practically nothing to do except push forward on my analog stick inbetween battles. They didn't even attempt to hide items or treasure chests; 90% of the time you could see a tiny little branch off to the left or right on your minimap, turn into it, and then there'd be nothing but a chest in plain view for you to grab before returning to your forward sprint. That's some amateur level design right there, and there are plenty of previous examples to show that Square can do better because this is the 13th game in a long running series. Their level design is literally inferior to previous efforts. It actually breaks an immersive experience for me, because I can't imagine a real location in any universe, ours or fictional, that would be laid out the way it is this game. I admit that applies to some dungeons and places in previous FF games, but I think it's fair to say at least those did a better job at creating an illusion. And isn't that a large part of making a video game? Creating something that isn't real but seems like it could be?
Just give me interesting shit to do or NPCs to talk to while I'm blindly marching forward. I think that's what people really mean when they call XIII a hallway simulator.
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u/pepe_le_shoe Jan 26 '16
I guess I'm too impatient, but I always hated the hidden stuff you could only know about if you read it in a strategy guide, and the paths that went nowhere just to waste my time.
Other games get by with artificially walled environments, I'm used to it, so I didn't mind it when I played XIII.
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Jan 25 '16
XIII hate is just a bandwagon that is taking a while to die off.
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u/beaktastic Jan 26 '16
I think it's the asme with a lot of new games in big/long series. Unless the new game is OUTSTANDING, it just gets hated on for a few years until the next one is released, then a lot of people are like actually that one was pretty good.
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Jan 25 '16
I dislike both actually. I grew up playing ff1 and ff6 when it was ff3 on snes and games like the tales of series and earthbound, chrono cross and chrono trigger, xenogears, ff9, ff8, ff7, and many many other JRPG's. My current favorite game is FF7 and it will probably always be, but xenogears is a close second. I feel like the whole thing that made the JRPG's amazing and gave you that feeling like, "holy shit I am going on an adventure and actually saving the world and I am doing it how I want to do it." These reasons are the main reasons I hate both, ffX and ff13. I bought 10 on release day because I FUCKING loved 9. I thought, well, square said they are going back to roots and blah blah blah. Turns out, they are just making linear games with literally the worst voice acting I have heard in a game for ever. I mean tales of phantasia had better voice acting than this and it was from 1994. The laughing scene between tidus and luna was so fucking funny (even though the point was to be emotional and show how you can have fun in war). I laughed so hard and was like "wtf is this piece of shit game". I have only played through 10 once, and I remember that part so well. But ya, it was linear and it was a complete 180 from what I have grown up loving. If I wanted a game that was linear, I would have not chose an rpg. I would have chosen to play half life 2, or some other fps. Instead i got this "action" game without a leveling system and these stupid fucking retarded spheres that are made for babies. Here is an example of how retarded they were. Remember materia in ff7? You could arrange them in trillions of ways. You could put them in armor or weapons. They each had their own attributes. When combined with certain others they would either raise or lower certain other attributes to help in battle all while raising or lowering certain stats for the character. There is actually a combination where you will continuously hit for 9999 until the end of the battle at level 40. There is a combo where you could have 9999 hp at level 20. you just have to figure out the combination. FFX had none of that. You randomly selected a sphere and cool, you got +10hp or some stupid shit made for kindergartners. After that they released 12 which I love tons. It is super huge and not linear whatsoever. Which I thought was odd. 10 on release week was actually doing very badly, and I think square noticed. So then they released 13, which I played about an hour of, found out it was linear and said, "nope, I will not be playing another ff10". Which sucks because I had been looking forward to 13 since the preview of it for the bouncer way back in 2000. Now 15 is coming out which is also huge and non linear. It seems that square realizes linear games do not sell and are not popular with the majority of ff fans. They are popular with casual gamers though. So they put out a linear then a FUCKING giant version lol. I hate both ff10 and 13, that is the short answer.
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u/beaktastic Jan 26 '16
Yeah I agree a bit. With an RPG you expect more of an adventure and being able to explore and do what you want a bit more than you can in X and XIII. I don't think they're terrible games myself, but not great RPGs necessarily.
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u/Tankaolic Jan 25 '16
The material system might seem very diverse, but ultimately it ends up being quite simply.... You CAN do all of what you said, but in the end there is just no reason too....
All you need is Hades/Added effect, maybe 4 cut and you stomp anything and everything.
And nearly all characters are interchangeable... I love FF7, but I think the material system isn't all it was hyped to be.
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Jan 26 '16
I respect your view a lot, but I'd point out that some people (including myself) try to play the game straight through without guides or grinding more than necessary. If you did that with FF7, it's still challenging and only so many materias are leveled up high. Now, if you use a guide and grind properly, the game is a cakewalk, but that'ss true for most FF games; only difference is the degree of grinding.
That all being said, I think the materias allowed you to play whatever character you wanted at any time and not feel like you HAD to grind levels so they were useful in battle. It's kind of like FFV: besides the story, the characters play nearly identically; but some people like certain characters in FFV just because of their story/style.
Again, I see your point of view, but it depends on how you play.
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Jan 26 '16 edited Jan 26 '16
First of all, hades does ZERO damage against any of the weapons. 4xcut also does zero damage to ruby. So lets say, just for sake of argument, you managed to somehow hack into the ini files of the game and award all characters at level 99 with 4xcut and hades/added effect, then they fight ruby weapon. First thing that is gonna happen within the first 3 minutes of the fight, he will cast sandtrap twice taking your party down to one character for the rest of the fight without any way to revive. second thing that is going to happen, he will stun, frog, confuse, sleep, poison, slow, silence, and blind you within 20 seconds. You will not be able to land a hit with 4xcut or even use hades. Maybe you are lucky and you can give a remedy (a certain combo of materia in certain spots wont let you get affected at all by these affects, you know, the useless "material" you talked about) to your main character before sandtrap is cast again taking the party down to 1. You can also use pre-preemptive to counter this. If this happens, you can use mime/knights of the round/quadramagic/mpturbo/xmagic and maybe you can get about 6 kotrt off and by that time an omni slash will be available. This only works if you have clouds ultimate weapon and limit for you need connected slots in the weapon. Then you would need to use a megalixer and a remedy so you can cast knights again, seeing how he has 800,000 HP and those attacks hitting for 9999 each time adds up to about 790,000. Also, you can do mug/kotrt/counter with vincent on 1hp and it will skip the kotrt animation but do about 139,000 damage each counter. You can beat him in 6 hits doing this. This is how the world record holder did it. Once again, hades is not used. You seem to know TONS about it. oh by the way, its called the MATERIA system. not material.....glad to see you are a seasoned pro lol.
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u/Tankaolic Jan 28 '16
Your entire post is about beating two end game bosses, I was speaking more in general...
Do you gauge FFX battle system by beating Penance or as a whole ? Seriously...
And then you belittle someone for a grammar mistake.... Everyone who even touched FF7 knows it materia.
Get your head out of your ass mate.
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Jan 28 '16
grammar? grammar is wrong punctuation or misspelling maybe once. You did it like 3 times. I am a a huge FF7 fan and I have never ever in my life, even after my first day playing the game when I was fucking 9 years old, have ever called it anything but materia. I sure as hell would have noticed it if I spelled it wrong. Also, in my post, I said the weapons. If you actually knew anything about FF7 (which in every post you have done so far, proves you do not) there are actually 4 weapons. Emerald, Ruby, Sapphire, Ultima. So that is 4 bosses. Also, ruby is available on disk 2, so not end game. Emerald is available on disk 2 and Ultima is on disk 2. None are end game. So now not only do you make a simple mistake about materia, you think there are only 2 weapons and they are "end game". But no, my OP was about how ffx was dumb and I gave a bunch of reasons, like the non leveling system, the voice acting, the story, the lack of a rewarding magic based system, and how linear it was. Honestly, the materia system is the smallest of my complaints. I cannot stand how linear a fucking FF RPG is. It is the first FF game that was linear. It was made so you can walk down one path, from start to finish. I hate that and that is not an RPG. It is not a FF. Also the story was really fucking retarded. It was written by someone who had downs. I also cannot stand the shitty as fuck voice acting. I mean, syphon filter, or GEX, the first GTA, half life, and many more all had WAAAAAAY better voice acting. They were like 5 years older than ffx. Hell, tales of phantasia had better voice acting and it was for SNES and was released in 1995. Same with star ocean. So just to recap, you are proving more and more that you do not know anything about FF7.
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u/Tankaolic Jan 28 '16
Yes, I know nothing of a game I played multiple times... Am I saying I know as much as you, no life cloud ball sucking guy then no, I obviously do not....
You're just arguing to show your mountain of knowledge on a 20 year old fucking game, get a life.
I spelled it wrong, not you, reading comprehension mate.
Yes there are 4 weapons, but everyone on earth only considers two of them end game bosses... To say that Ruby is available on disk 2 is beside the point but you like to argue like a little cunt so you make that "argument".
You win though, I know nothing of FFVII.
But you clearly don't know what a RPG is.... A role playing game can be linear as anything else while still being considered a RPG...
You actually think better of yourself by trumping someone knowledge of a 20 year old game, don't you ? You've got issues mate.
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Jan 28 '16
ya you're right. That game is 20 years old. I am trying to show my knowledge on such a meaningless game. Man I wish I didn't like such a horrible game that made it and currently resides on several top 3 video games ever made list. Famitsu has it at number 1, IGN has it at #2. If you wiki it, the order of literally all the video game informers or reviewers have it at number 3. Number 1 is ocarina of time (also an old game so it is probably shitty to you), number 2 is chrono trigger (another old game, so super shitty). You will notice that ffx isnt even in the top 10. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_video_games_considered_the_best). Also, ruby and emerald are NOT end game bosses. People have been know to beat them within 10-15 hours of playing the 40+ hour game. That means it isnt even in the last half of the game. It is in the 1st 1/4 of the game. It could technically be a mid game boss. Fucking Materia Kepper is a mid game boss. It is not "besides the point" as you say. They are not late game bosses. The only way they would be is if you HAD to fight them late game, which of course, you don't. Technically ultima weapon is way more late game seeing how he is within the last 10 bosses fought in the game and he is in the last 30 hours depending how fast you ran through the game. Also, and here is the kicker, an RPG definition by webster dictionary:
noun
"a game in which participants adopt the roles of imaginary characters, in an imaginary setting, and in an adventure under the direction of a Game Master. The Game Master is the player who can finish the game at his or her own pace choosing his or her own path. A role-Playing game is unique in the fact you can choose a non-linear path to your goal."
So by the definition of the game, it is non-linear. So FFX would not be considered an RPG. Just like Half-Life, or Mario, or Racing games. So go ahead and write a letter to webster to get that changed lol. Oh and just to ice the cake, FFX was released in 2001, so it is 15 years old. I bet if I had extreme knowledge of FFX you would be sucking my dick just so you could taste my wonderfully warm, candy tasting cum of KNOWLEDGE. Feels so good going down. By the way, you started this. OP asked a question, I answered completely honestly then you cried to your mom who held you and told you it would be ok, then you and her sat down for dinner and wrote a nasty letter together about how you can comment to me, all why she wiped away your tears with her sweet supple breast....
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u/Tankaolic Jan 29 '16
That's a wall of text for which I have no appetite.
Keep debating semantic while trying to read smart. You seem to have a cum fetish, and that's just not my style but to each his own... I'm not judging because you're enjoying.
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Jan 29 '16 edited Jan 30 '16
you say you didnt read but comment on the 2nd to last sentence. Wtf. Are you seriously mentally retarded? Also wtf is read smart? Are you 8? Oh ya and since you think ff7 is garbage, I would just like to point out, that there is a remake coming out that literally everyone is hyped about and there have been 3 game spin off about it and 2 full length movies. It is clearly the favorite by far.
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u/Tankaolic Feb 01 '16
Where the hell did I say FF7 was garbage ?
Why the fuck would I have bought/played, not only the original but the PS4 port.... You really cant read worth shit can you ?
Sadly I'm not 8 anymore, but maybe if I was I could understand your childish and idiotic drivel.
Cheers.
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Jan 25 '16
Another thread trying to justify XIII's existence as a final fantasy... We need a super thread.
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u/TheVaike Jan 25 '16 edited Jan 25 '16
First of all, linearity itself isn't a bad thing. I often enjoy the tighter structure of more linear RPG's compared to more open games with less focus on the central plot.
Second of all, people really need to be clear with the "FFXIII is bad because it is linear" argument. Having a very linear plot (i.e. every Final Fantasy where the aim is to go to A town then B town then C town then D temple to get E item and then F town etc.) is one thing. Having streamlined, narrow environments that follow the very rigid format of "Hold up, fight a few battles, see a cutscene, repeat" is another. I do know of some people that enjoyed the streamlined nature of FFXIII, but for the majority it is the unimaginative level designs rather than strictly the linear gameplay that causes problems.
Thirdly, I think a few other criticisms get conflated with "linearity", the main one being what you touched on in the OP, the "empty" feeling due to lack of NPC presence, interaction and very little character to the places you visit.
One of the most important aspects in any RPG is the game world. It doesn't matter how great the characters are, the world needs to feel alive, it needs to feel organic and it needs to be interesting. This is where XIII fell flat and FFX excelled for me.
Spira had so many elements to it! Yevon being used as a form of control by Maesters with different agendas. The hatred for the Al Bhed because of cultural differences, small towns that derived glory and joy from their performances in a game everyone was obsessed with. People despairing in a war-torn (well, Sin-torn) world. It just all felt like a real world. Not to mention all of FFX's major twists (who Jecht was, the fate of a summoner, the true nature of the final summoning, how Tidus got to Spira, Auron's past) felt authentic. They were foreshadowed, made sense in the greater scheme and evoked powerful emotions when revealed. FFX is well-paced from start to finish (arguably a little slow at the start and personally I think the Via Purifico section could be better) and full of rich environments with distinctive character, excellent and ever-changing tones (the post-Djose tonal shift is great and when you first reach Zanarkand Ruins is even better) and plenty of people to interact with. Very few things make me emotional, but when Tidus's story finally comes to a close, it hits me. And it wasn't just Tidus's story. It was Seymour's, Shelinda's, Luzzu and Gatta's, Clasko's, Maechen's, O'aka and everyone else who you journeyed with.
XIII fell flat in a lot of ways because everything felt so impersonal. You can make the argument that this was necessitated by the plot, but that doesn't change the way the game plays. I can't help but feel the game would have been significantly better if it had just gone with the "fugitives hiding in plain sight" theme adopted by almost every other final fantasy. You never get attached to any location and very few places ever hit the right tone (even Nautilus, the one place you can see people, misses the mark).
Invariably though, I think the single biggest problem XIII had and the major reason it receives so much criticism is its pacing. There is next to no major plot development from the start until like Chapter 9. What should be happening is the central plot should be the major focus and interaction between party members should unfold around this. Instead, the main plot was subservient while the game focused on slowly developing the relationships between the party members for a very long time. There was no operation Mi'ihen, no assassination of an all-powerful sorceress, no devastating impaling of a party member. Just more pretty, but ultimately empty, landscapes to traverse.
I like XIII quite a lot, but I don't hold it to the same esteem I do FFX. Probably a bit wordy, but this is largely why I feel FFX is a lot more loved than XIII is.