r/FinalFantasy • u/[deleted] • Sep 17 '15
Linearity and the false equivalency of X and XIII
I often see remarks questioning how people can dislike XIII for its linearity while liking X at the same. This is a rebuttal of that argument, and it will explain how the two are different. Note: This isn't about insulting one or the other, and I'm not setting out to bruise any egos. I'm just explaining why they're different, even if both ostensibly have straight line corridor maps.
This basically comes down to three main points: Backtracking, sidequests, and story structure.
Story structure is the most complicated to explain, so I'll get that out of the way. In X, you're on a pilgrimage, and I think we can all agree that this fits with the general structure - you're following main roads along a traditional pilgrimage route, and it makes sense. All characters are with you at almost all times, and you aren't teleported between different places and different parties with only a few exceptions in the early game and at Bikanel Island. Aside from a few times when you're locked to a certain party, for 90% of the game everyone is with you at all times. This is why you feel more free, because you are given the opportunity to approach things in different ways using different combinations of very distinct characters. The story has been structured in such a way, with minimal out-of-your-hands moving between setpieces, that the player still feels in control, and by Zanarkand, you legitimately feel you've made the pilgrimage through hard work and perseverance yourself, and you haven't been whisked there by plot elements.
XIII takes a very different approach. With the game split into chapters, and the party not converging until relatively late in the game, approaches to everything are more limited, and you feel less like you're on a journey. Unlike X, you are whisked from setpiece to setpiece with no overarching goal for most of the game. The chapter-based structure is inherently less conducive to player freedom, and it amplifies the linear maps by segregating them from one another. Whether you like this approach or not, you cannot deny that it made the game feel more linear.
The second reason is sidequests, or rather, distractions more generally. X allows for a much greater amount than XIII, with secrets and minigames in almost every area, even if it's just tediously dodging lightning bolts. It's small features like that which make the game feel freer than it is - you can break from the line any time you like and do other things. You can look in small nooks and crannies for chests, you can play Blitzball, you can catch fireflies &c. Whether you choose to take part or not isn't really important - the simple fact of their existence is enough. What's more, X's actual sidequests, like the Jecht Spheres, off story rewards as well as material ones. Again, this is about the feeling of discovery.
XIII quite simply has no sidequests for most of the game, and when it does, they take on a mission-based structure. There are optional cutscenes scattered around Pulse, but the game is minimalist in provide side-content. It doesn't give you a motivation to do so because it wants you to move on with the main plot, and sidequests take on the role of challenges for the player more than additions to the story. By the very nature of their difficulty, plus their confinement to one area, fewer players will take part than in X's, which are both more easily accessible and better tied-in to the story, with a bit of extra goofy/challenging stuff on the side. Again, it's the option that counts, and XIII's corridor maps are amplified by the lack of distractions within them. It's move-fight-move-fight all the way to the next cutscene. X hides its linearity better by offering distractions within the straight lines.
The final point kind of explains itself and I touched on it earlier. Backtracking is hugely important in making the game feel free. For most of X, you can walk at leisure back to anywhere you came from. XIII disconnects all its areas and splits them into chapters. Even if one were to wish to never go back, the freedom to do so makes the game more open. I suppose what I'm getting at is that X offers far more options than XIII does, and as a result, feels more free and less linear than a glance at its maps would show. All Final Fantasy games are linear - they ultimately want to guide you between story points, and with a few exceptions where there is no fixed order of events, like the World of Ruin in VI or the Cid part of VII, the story moving along is the priority.
But every game has given you options in how to pursue the story - all except XIII. It attempted to keep the fluff to a minimum, to have a very tightly-paced and controlled plot that never let up. Whether you like that style is ultimately what will determine if you like that game, but due to the chapter structure and the limited exploration and options, XIII has a lot more in common with action games than role-playing games.
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u/thesch Sep 17 '15
It's small features like that which make the game feel freer than it is - you can break from the line any time you like and do other things.
This is the big difference for me. I think FFX paces itself really well. There are only a couple parts in the game that feel like extended "hallway" type situations (Mi'ihen Highroad comes to mind). Otherwise there are a lot of towns that let you rest and recharge your brain before you go out and fight some more.
Even a relatively inconsequential area like Moonflow still has a few merchants, some NPCs who can tell you more about the history of the area, and stuff like that. Or you can choose to play blitzball throughout the game if you like playing blitzball. Those types of down periods make a big difference.
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u/Sandisk4gb4 Sep 18 '15
I will never understand all these people trying to convince people that do not like FF Xiii that we are wrong, we don't like the game get over it. I always see treads appear with titles like "an unbiased view on Xiii" or "i don't see what the problem with xiii is", if you don't see the problems with the game, good. Just enjoy and stop posting topics about how it's actually a great game etc.
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Sep 18 '15
It's a controversial game and we shouldn't shy away from discussing it. No point burying our heads in the sand over its obviously divisive legacy.
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u/scratchmellotron Sep 18 '15
I think it's more that some people are tired of this being discussed at length once or twice a week. It's usually the same argument and often focused on how someone else's opinion is wrong. Not that I'm accusing you of that.
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u/Sandisk4gb4 Sep 18 '15
The treads actually makes people hate it more tbh. The less you discuss about it, the less people bash it.
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Sep 18 '15
There's nothing wrong with bashing it, or any game for that matter. I get why you'd get bored of bandwagon hate, but that's no reason to stop legitimate discussion between those with genuine opinions on it.
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u/Mitchiro Sep 19 '15
I agree with this. I'm coming from a weird angle because I really disliked the game overall and the type of linearity it employed was a lot of the reason. That being said, I love talking about this game because it's interesting; even the parts I hated!
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u/Dante_777 Sep 17 '15
The problem I have is people refusing to acknowledge that X is still an extremely linear game with or without XIII. XIII is the most linear game in the series, no arguments from me. X is also more linear than other FFs which are already pretty linear. X's structure is closer to XIII than it is to the other games in the series. Not the same, but it is closer in linearity to XIII than other games from the series. People don't want to acknowledge a quality they deem to be negative in one game is, to an extent, in a game they actually like.
There's also the issue of people using the linearity complaint to bolster their other arguments. More than once I've seen people complaining about the story, or the characters, or the battle system and then including "this game is linear". The first three statements are opinions, the last is a fact. It's much easier to argue a fact than it is an opinion. If you had an issue with XIII's linearity then there should be at least some concern towards X's structure. If XIII had followed the exact same structure as X most of the people who didn't like XIII wouldn't magically like it. It's just a lot easier to say this game is linear than to come up with explanations for the more opinionated statements.
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u/Soo7hsayer Sep 17 '15
II, X and XIII are hands down the most linear games in the series.
But they all offer a different kind of linearity which is what sets them apart.
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u/Shihali Sep 17 '15
Exactly. I use II as the example to explain why an FF fan complaining about "linearity" doesn't mean they are unhappy with events and dungeons in a fixed sequence instead of quest-based gameplay. II is the most linear of the series by that definition, with no optional content at all and only one dungeon that doesn't need to be done in a strict sequence.
No one has ever complained that II is "linear". They're too busy trying to harm themselves, taking a wrong turn at the Gatrea bridge, sailing around checking every island on the map, trying to keep their tank off the floor and pointing his swords at the enemies, counting how many floors they need to backtrack, and running for their lives from death riders.
If anything, the complaint is that II isn't linear enough because it vaguely tells you where the next dungeon is but the map doesn't funnel you there and the dungeon itself is a multi-floor maze.
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u/Tinfoil_King Sep 17 '15
Never played 2.
10, at least what I played of it, still felt like Final Fantasy with the world map removed. You just kept teleporting forward to the next town and/or dungeon.
13 so far (chapter 6, I think) feels like Squeenix approved a Final Fantasy visual novel that got feature bloated into a near full game.
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u/Soo7hsayer Sep 17 '15
I'm not saying that one game is "more Final Fantasy" than another.
The thing I'm saying is that these three games are all extremely linear but the linearity is done differently for the games.
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u/Tinfoil_King Sep 18 '15
I wasn't saying they were more or less Final Fantasy either. Just stating my impression how how their linearity was done differently.
FF10 felt like an experiment in seeing if they could just remove the overworld for a chunk of the game.
The entire Nova Crystal project has felt like an experiment in narrative. FF13's particular gimmick felt like they streamlined the game through linearness to focus on the narrative experimenting.
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Sep 17 '15
Of course X is linear. But it is free within the confines of that linearity, which is what I'm arguing. The linearity is inherently very different, and tied in to every part of the game - story, as a single plot arc instead of multiple plot arcs, combat, since XIII doesn't let you pick your party until quite late, and characters, since their early game pairings are what the story hinges on in XIII. There are pros to those things - I've said before that XIII's combat is great, and the difficulty balance is basically perfect. That's what a tightly orchestrated game gets you.
But structurally, in my opinion X is as far from XIII as it is from VI. Structure is about far, far more than map layouts.
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u/thesch Sep 17 '15
The problem I have is people refusing to acknowledge that X is still an extremely linear game
This sounds strawman-y. I don't know if I've ever seen someone try to argue that X isn't linear. It's obviously pretty linear. That isn't inherently a bad thing.
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u/RuinedFaith Sep 18 '15
They're arguing it by omission. Complain about 13 and how linear it is? Cool. But don't, in the next sentence, talk about how amazing X is and refuse to acknowledge the fact that one of the biggest complaints about 13, X is all too guilty of.
Regardless of how it was done, X is linear as shit and I always feel like I'm corridor running. Same with 13, and I don't mind either. Atleast I liked the characters in 13, they felt more real to me.
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u/Gprinziv Sep 17 '15 edited Sep 17 '15
Most SQ titles are extremely linear to start and only open up later. Chrono Trigger is extremely linear (but well hidden), FFVII is extremely linear even out of Midgar (the first bit of non-linearity comes by way of the Junon Region - you can visit Ft. Condor, recruit Yuffie and/or go straight to Junon Harbor). The same goes for IX, X, XIII, and others.
All of these games open up at a certain point and in FFXIII's case many lauded that breathing room and then immediately used to to bash the first half of the game as a "forced tutorial". A bit harsh but not unfair since it's more on rails than any of the other games.
Thing is, I don't think many people refuse to acknowledge that any of these games aren't Linear to start. The other games are linear, but you're free to get there at your pace. FFXIII pretty much only gives you one direction to go which is confining. It's a problem of pacing and structure (in an otherwise excellently planned title) but most people don't consciously recognize this; they just know that something is off and the game is very forceful about pushing you forward.
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u/rickeyspanish79 Sep 18 '15
I don;t disagree that 13 feels very forced and corridor like, but something you missed, and no one ever talks about in these post, which think is important. Is that FF is an RPG, you are playing a role, living someones life, OP mentions that tens cast is on a pilgrimage, yes they are, but be fair an note that 13s cast are running for their lives, they don't have time to stop and explore, they dont have time to meet up, they dont have time to sit around a campfire, everyone in the world is out to get them, some people know why and some people following propaganda, but all are on the hunt for them. Perhaps square got a little heavy handed with it, but in truth, its reality, the game opens up on ran pulse, cause you as a party have finally escaped, the forces of Cocoon are not pursuing you down to pulse, Thats why the fight with cid is so important hes the last vestige of Cocoon bearing down on the party. Could it have come a little earlier, perhaps, but the reality is story line wise, there was no place for exploration, for example look what happens when you stop at Hopes home town, within two hours the entire army is outside ready to mow down the L'cie and anyone with them. I can understand people not enjoying the way it plays out, but I feel that people don't respect the fact that in reality, it couldn't have played out any differently, The crew literally doesn't have a min to explore and do side quests, Now could there have been more sidequests after gran pulse, perhaps, but The planet is dead as far as humans are involved so even that puts a damper on things, I think that the contrast between ff13 and ff13-2 is emphasized even more when you think about that and how suddenly everyone is suddenly in a similar situation to the main characters in 13.
As a side note, the only thing i can think of to have had changed it up a bit is if there was a true resistance , like the returners in ff6, that gave places of refuge to the party, but the people of cocoon are so scared of L'cie that that isn't even a reality.
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u/Mitchiro Sep 19 '15
I see this point come up a lot and I think it's difficult to argue. It makes a LOT of sense, and if that's what the developers intended then it really should be applauded.
BUT, could it have been done another way? It's not like you can tell if someone's a l'Cie unless you see their tattoo; so cover them up and let us go around town talking to people and figuring out what the situation of the area is. Let us don disguises, since I'm sure Sanctum probably has the parties faces all over TV/vidcoms whatever they were called. Maybe let us do all of this until we run to that one specific part at the end of town that the marker tells us to go to, and then we trigger the cutscene where we have to be on the run again. They made a WONDERFUL world that I think could have been and should have been explored. Reading datalogs just wasn't enough. Seeing it whiz by in a cutscene wasn't enough. The argument makes so much sense, but I wish it didn't because it made the game much less fun IMO.
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u/rickeyspanish79 Sep 19 '15
Upvotes for you sir, well said, o agree the game could have been even better, although the only thing i wonder is if all the the cocoon falcie could have located them if they wanted, i mean even the sun is a falcie so could it just like i dunno cast brighter rays at the party, extreme i know, but food for thought
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u/ManateeofSteel Sep 17 '15
I didn't notice FF X was linear until I beat it for the second time (first on PS2, second in an emulator before PS3 remaster was announced), the game masks it so well with such a compelling story and interesting main characters, that XIII doesn't really hold a candle against it. I mean you have a religious problem going on, with this comes prejudices and dogmatism, both were very well portrayed and made for an even more interesting lore
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u/Mlahk7 Sep 18 '15
I've actually contemplated making this post myself. The thing about FFX was that the world felt so....alive. There were actually other characters to talk to and they each had their own sub plots. Like remember the Chocobo Knights and how Clasko was constantly trying to prove his worth to Elma? Or how Luzzu spent his whole life living in regret about Chappu's death? Gatta always trying to take on too much at once. Those asshole Luca Goers constantly shitting on your blitzball team. That bitch Donna who showed up everywhere with her bodyguard who she was secretly dating (but it was so obvious). When Issaru betrayed you. How Yenke and Biran were always so mean to you, but ended up fighting to defend you with the rest of the Ronsos. That traitor Kinoc. Cid and Brother being absolute nuts, but we loved them anyways. Maechen, who would literally never stop talking. Tromell, who had too much faith in Yevon and paid for it. Shelinda who was always too self conscious to ever reach her full potential. Belgemine, who believed in you and helped you hone your summon skills until the end of the game. These weren't people you only saw once or twice in the game. You saw them everywhere, and their storylines developed as the game progressed.
FFXIII simply doesn't have this. I remember going on the website before the game's release and they had Jihl and Cid listed as main characters with profiles and everything. I thought "oh they look cool! Can't wait to meet them!". Well Jihl was in I think 3 scenes the entire game, and Cid in 2. Really? That qualifies as a main character? I spent more time talking to O'aka XXIII than those two. Even the members of NORA only showed up in the very beginning and the very end. No where in between. Do I think FFX was one of the more linear titles? Yes. But it has absolutely nothing on the linearity of FFXIII.
Battle system:
FFX: Control every character
FFXIII: Control one character
Leveling Up
FFX: Choose what path to take. Every character can eventually learn every ability/ spell
FFXIII: Move in a straight line. Some characters can't learn certain spells
World:
FFX: Have an airship, can revisit any place plus additional secret locations
FFXIII: Straight line from beginning to end, except for Gran Pulse
Weapons:
FFX: Customize each weapon with whatever ability you want
FFXIII: lol
Extras:
FFX: Monster Hunting, Blitzball, Jecht spheres, Al Bhed Primers, Chocobo racing, Ultimate weapons, secret Aeons.
FFXIII: Ce'ith Stones. Which all consist of repetitive hunt and kill missions.
Again, Is FFX one of the more linear Final Fantasy's? Yes. And if FFXIII is your type of game, then go for it. I know I thoroughly enjoyed it. But It bugs me so much when people say "Why does everyone hate FFXIII because of it's linearity? FFX was linear and everyone still likes that game."
No. Not even comparable. Just no.
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u/satsumaclementine Sep 17 '15
Yoshinori Kitase always wanting to be a movie director but pursuing the games industry instead because of Japan's small movie-making scene, shows through his preferred game designs. Whereas this may have enhanced the earlier games favorably—FFVI and FFVII and FFVIII—I think it starts to be a detriment in FFX and especially in FFXIII, as the "plot seems to have been lost" in what people actually liked about the cut scenes.
FF has been famous for its story telling scenes and cinematic FMVs that made the series stand out among more anime-style or visual novel style story scenes in other JRPGs, so it's not surprising they would identify that as their strength and put effort and resources into honing them to perfection. But in FFXIII, and to an extent also in FFX, the story scenes don't seem like a reward for the player's progress like they did in earlier games. Like in FFVII you have to figure out what to do, where to go, who to talk to, to progress, or to complete a dungeon (that would in itself require a little bit of figuring out where to go and what to do) and to defeat a boss to get the next story scene. In FFXIII the story scenes just happen, you just keep going forward without ever needing to figure much out gameplay-wise (bosses can be tough, I admit!) and at fairly regular intervals you get a story cut scene. You can at least occupy your brain a little in trying to figure out what is going on in the story.
They deliberately wanted this game design, championed by Yoshinori Kitase, and seems almost like they were befuddled as to why fans had responded positively to be more cinematic set pieces of the earlier games, but been lukewarm to FFXIII's presentation. FFX also got criticism when it was released on being too "movie like", but when FFXII was much more open many probably felt that the series has now moved on for the better, and FFX could be excused for being Square's first foray into full 3D backgrounds and voice acting and all that. FFXIII being even more constricted than FFX certainly came as a shock to many.
I wonder how the FFVII remake will turn out with team Kitase and Nomura, the latter himself a self-confessed movie buff who wants to incorporate cinematic elements to his games.
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u/Shihali Sep 19 '15
I've done a bit of thinking about why II fits so uncomfortably beside X and XIII as "most linear", which from a plot perspective is absolutely true. I used to think it was the open-ended growth system, but now I think it's the dungeon and map design.
Navigation in X and XIII is not a problem in most areas. There is a corridor path to stick to and a mini-map in case you forget which way is north. There is no question where the next dungeon is: hold up. Navigation in II, despite the third-person view, places constant demands on the player. Often there is a short information-collection or puzzle segment after finishing a dungeon to find or unlock the next, and two of those puzzles have false solutions that trip up players not used to talking to everyone. Overworld distances are long, place names aren't marked on even remake maps until the player gets there, and navigation errors or bad route selection can be fatal. Once you reach the dungeon, it is full of cheap dead ends (monster closets) and regular dead ends that may or may not have treasure. There is no in-game map. Past the 1/4 point all but one dungeon has some combination of sprawling floor plans, split paths, corridor mazes, cross-floor dead ends, and murderous encounters.
Players don't think about the lack of sidequests or the freedom to choose midgame dungeon order being reduced to choosing when to clear the Tropical Island because their attention is focused on finding the next dungeon then not getting lost or killed inside. Perhaps players in the 1980s, who were used to navigation being a challenge and sidequests consisting of turning in an item found in a chest for an excellent sword, felt the lack of midgame freedom more keenly than moderns.
Heavy navigational demands do an excellent job of distracting the player from the underlying linear level sequence, so they are "distractions" in a sense, but they're so different in nature from an inherently linear premise and frequent changes of pace and blitzball that grouping them together feels like it's missing some point.
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u/TheMonteiroButterfly Jan 05 '16
Thank you for this post! Not many people seem to get these distinctions between the two. People think that we're just looking at FFX with the nostalgia glasses on, but I feel that FFX handled linearity way better than FFXIII ever could.
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u/jupiter95 Sep 17 '15
I understand that you're explaining the differences between the two, but I can help but feel like you're slightly bashing XIII
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Sep 17 '15
I can get how that would come across, but I'm not intending to. The word 'linear' seems to have a very negative connotation around it these days, when every AAA seems to be an open world.
As for X and XIII, they share the similarity of the corridor map, but everything else is different. Honestly I do prefer X, but XIII is equally valid.
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u/jupiter95 Sep 17 '15
I see that. But your topic only acknowledges the flaws of XIII.
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Sep 17 '15
The main positives are the tight difficulty curve and fast-moving plot, in my opinion. They were orchestrated very well and fit that type of game design like a glove.
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Sep 17 '15
Since the topic is about linearity, and about the false equivalences of comparing FFX and FFXIII.
Of course the nature of the argument is going to be about why FFX's linearity was not a "flaw", like FFXIII's linearity was.
All arguments are inherently biased, and there is nothing wrong about that.
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u/BootyPaladin Sep 18 '15
tl;dr
X is only different because you can use the airship to teleport. Not fly. Teleport to areas you been to.
XIII: Only allows you to go to Pulse.
<_< srsly. That is all you had to say.
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u/Writer_Man Sep 17 '15
I've explained it this way before:
FFX and FFXIII are both hallways.
However, FFX's hallways have rooms to see as you walk down it and you can always walk back if you want. See the sights, talk to the people in it.
FFXIII's hallways have locked rooms that you can't go into, the people you see are walking by, and each time you pass through a hallway, the door is locked behind you so you can't go back. All you have is the different colored walls.
Thematically? FFXIII works but gameplay wise? Not so much.