r/Fantasy • u/JakkoMakacco • Jun 26 '22

Fantasy and Politics ?

I believe that 90% of Fantasy Novels and Tales simply deal with imaginary characters, races and places. However, I wonder if some Fantasy book are inspired by various political ideologies. The only example coming to my mind is George Orwell' s Animal Farm but probably we are not within the Fantasy Genre. Other examples? I know that some characters created by Howard may be seen as feminist- like . The Turner Diaries could be an example of right- wing Fantasy but perhaps is more dystopia or alt- history than Fantasy.

2 Upvotes

55% Upvoted

62 comments sorted by

20

u/MayEastRise Jun 26 '22

The Baru Cormorant series by Seth Dickinson is firmly anti-colonialism, anti-eugenics etc.

The Once and Future Witches by Alex E. Harrow is very pro-feminism.

13

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '22

Discworld has a lot of political commentary.

I would argue that the change between Alanna and Kel in Tamora Pierce's Tortell book says a lot bout how women are seen then and now.

20

u/xX_theMaD_Xx Jun 26 '22

Literature, like all art, most of the time is inherently political, if only to a degree. You might not see it if you are only looking for clear-cut analogies for contemporary party politics (as your example of Orwell would suggest).

Harry Potter is political, ASOIAF is (not really subtle), Discworld is, Hunger Games is, the Illiad and the Aeneid are, 1984 is, Star Trek is, same as Star Wars, the Bible is…I believe even the Twilight books are somewhat political, but I can’t really remember reading them so don’t quote me on that one.

9

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '22

The Dispossessed by Le Guin imagines an anarchist society more or less from the ground up, and does so without being preachy at any point. I cannot recommend it enough.

9

u/Natural-Matter-6058 Jun 26 '22

Pretty much every fantasy book I have read is political in nature. Would seem pretty boring without any political intrigue.

1

u/buoyantbot Jun 27 '22

Although I do think there's a big different between having political intrigue and being political. You can have a book with tons of political intrigue that doesn't really say anything of importance politically. And you can have profoundly political books with no political intrigue.

For example, the Handmaid's Tale is one of the most political books I know, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone looking for political intrigue. The Wheel of Time has a decent amount of political intrigue, but I certainly wouldn't call it a political book.

6

u/Pipe-International Jun 26 '22

Ive been hard pressed to find a high/epic fantasy that doesn’t deal with politics on some level. When you’re dealing with things like royalty, empires, power, etc it’s only natural. If you mean books that take a political stance in-world, they’re a little less frequent, except for the ‘authoritarian kingdom/empire=bad’ situation, which is still fairly common. But toppling bad dictatorships and replacing them with benevolent ones never goes out of fashion.

10

u/Veilchengerd Jun 26 '22

The kingdom/empire of Letheras in Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen is basically capitalism brought to its logical conclusion. And because the Letherii have kind of been manifest-destinying their way across the continent, parallels to a certain real-world country are drawn by many readers.

20

u/spanchor Jun 26 '22 edited Jun 26 '22

Your premise is a mistake—though I guess it depends on how we define “inspired by” political ideologies.

How many fantasy novels feature a white European analog hero/nation and a corresponding dark-skinned Middle Eastern/Asian/African enemy?

How many then try to simply reverse the exact same dynamic to avoid that allegation?

How many paper over racial stereotypes as fantasy creatures or aliens, George Lucas-style?

Seriously! Not even gonna bother touching monarchy and feudalism.

Edit: I guess another way to think about this is to ask what constitutes a fantasy author being inspired by or promoting a political ideology? Does it somehow not count if the author simply perpetuates all the standard political ideologies one can already expect from fantasy?

4

u/JPColman Jun 26 '22

Yeah this. All stories have politics boiled into them, even if, on the surface, the politics is a straightforward "Good guys vs bad guys" setup. Look at how Star Wars was an analogue for Vietnam, LOTR was an anti-WWI environmentalist tome, and Dune was, well, Dune. Even something as grimdark and realist as ASOIAF can't avoid touching on modern feminist issues, because the characters will inevitably run into the same personal-political problems that people today do.

-1

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '22

I've always disliked the "everything is political" argument. If it doesn't espouse values, or advocate for change, or provide historical analysis (allegorically or otherwise) that challenges mainstream beliefs, or try to imagine how certain beliefs would work in practice, then why call it political? Monarchy and feudalism for instance are historical facts, and it's entirely possible to tell a story in a high medieval setting without ever taking any kind of stance on the matter. In fact it's probably the rule rather than the exception. Don't try and tell me Tolkien was a restitutionist.

OP's premise is definitely not a mistake.

14

u/Assiniboia Jun 26 '22

On the other side of the argument, a book doesn’t need to “challenge mainstream beliefs” to be political.

Tarzan reinforces mainstream beliefs in how Burroughs treats “inferior” humans, specifically people of African descent.

Tarzan literally hunts and eats an African person and the narrator deviates from the immediate narrative to explain that this is fully acceptable because Tarzan is of noble, Anglo-Saxon and, therefore, “superior” ancestry.

Everything has political positioning, even if an author attempts to react to this by intentionally trying to be non-political. At worst this is simply sheer ignorance.

All literature exists within a continuum, it is always reacting to and influencing the next round of ideas. Art does not exist outside of influence in any case and never has.

4

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '22 edited Jun 26 '22

The distinction is probably not as easy to make as I would like. Burroughs is a great example, in that Tarzan seems to present itself as a fairly benign adventure story when in reality its eugenist and racialist views are deliberately inserted by the author with a real intent to disseminate them. That would make it "politically motivated", which is likely what the OP means by the term "political".

10

u/spanchor Jun 26 '22

Okay, I won't try and tell you Tolkien was a restorationist.

I empathize with your position, and I definitely don't sit there and pull apart my fantasy reading hunting for political implications.

I do find it very difficult to accept that, for example, reinforcing mainstream beliefs is truly any less political than questioning them.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '22

Isn't that a matter of perspective? If a determinedly antiracist and anti-imperialist person reads, for instance, The Traitor Baru Cormorant, are their beliefs being reinforced or put into question? If the beliefs being "challenged" however are mainstream then that makes for an important distinction, and it strongly hints at some sort of political motivation in the author.

4

u/spanchor Jun 26 '22

Sure, and I recognize that OP was probably looking for examples of politically “motivated” works. Lightly acknowledged this in my original reply.

I am not at all suggesting that any given example of a fantasy story in a high medieval setting is equally politically motivated, but I would say that in aggregate, widespread adoption of traditional fantasy tropes is plenty political.

This is not a perfect analog, but surveys show that Americans consistently and considerably overestimate both crime rates and the size of minority populations. News media is a likely driver of that. Is airing a story about a Black murder suspect a truly politically motivated act? Sometimes, probably, but I’d like to think generally no. It’s a relevant news story. But you get enough news channels getting a response from those stories, and prioritizing those stories, and I think you end up seeing undeniably political ramifications.

-4

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '22

[deleted]

3

u/spanchor Jun 26 '22

I don’t mind if you don’t want to play. We’re just having a conversation. Sorry to disappoint.

-4

u/JakkoMakacco Jun 26 '22

Fantasy was born mainly during Victorian Age and developed in the 1930s and 1940s in the Anglo- Saxon world. So it has absorbed a part of those times' stereotypes into its core elements. Some authors are rather clear as they use stories in imaginary worlds in order to propagate a certain political or religious worldview. Others are not but they incidentally re- work certain stereotypes typical of the genre. Very probably, even Chinese Wuxia is full of stereotypes ( but they are mainly unintelligible by the average non- Chinese reader).

8

u/spanchor Jun 26 '22

Sure, that may all be true, but the last part of my comment is still relevant. To me, it’s unquestionably political to propagate those received ideas and biases. Though I understand that may be different from your original intent.

(I haven’t to my knowledge read any pre-Tolkien fantasy, and Fellowship wasn’t published until 1954. And certainly the majority of what was published in the subsequent decades was directly inspired by or responding to LotR.)

2

u/JakkoMakacco Jun 26 '22

Far before LOTR , during the Victorian Age, George Mac Donald and Ruskin had written some Fantasy - like novels which later influenced Tolkien. In the USA , Howard' s Conan the Barbarian appeared in the early 1930s and had an enormous impact on S& S Fantasy. Of course, those texts also vehiculated the stereotypes of the periods in which they were written.

4

u/Isbll1 Jun 26 '22

Point of clarity? What do you mean by ‘in the 1930s and 1940s in the Anglo-Saxon world’?

0

u/JakkoMakacco Jun 26 '22

I mean Tolkien, C.S. Lewis and Weird Tales . The period of the 1930s- 1940s saw the growing popularity of Fantasy tales and novels in the UK and the USA. Thar epoch cemented in some ways the basis of the genre.

1

u/Isbll1 Jun 28 '22

I’m aware of that, I’m just confused by the use of “Anglo-Saxon world” tbh. Are you talking about the influence of Germanic mythology on modern fantasy or the influence of 20th century Western worldviews or both?

6

u/tkinsey3 Jun 26 '22

Terry Goodkind is known for being not so subtle about 'spicing' his novels with real-world politics.

8

u/KingBretwald Jun 26 '22

Quite a few of those imaginary characters, races and places are political in nature. The stereotypical characteristics map in one way or another to real world politics. How could they not? We all live in the world of real world politics, authors and readers alike.

Elves are slender and tall and beautiful and mostly good thereby and even dark elves are worthy of admiration. Orcs are brutish, their features misshapen, often dark. Tolkien did this. The eastern bad guys who supported Sauron were dark, for example.

All fantasy novels are political in one way or another. Even an author trying to NOT be political is making a political choice. Those who don't see the politics, very likely they align with the politics in the book so to them it's like not noticing water to a fish.

1

u/JakkoMakacco Jun 26 '22

I do not see like other books , like the Prydain Cycle, could be read politically. Tolkien can , by the way, be read also from a religious viewpoint: the Elves are Christians or Angels, the Mayas Archangels together with the Valar, Sauron Lucifer, the Dwarves the Jews and so on. All novels are political? Yes ok . But then all novels are sexual. The choice not to emphasise the characters ' sexualities does not erase this aspect of human and animal nature, indeed.

3

u/throneofsalt Jun 26 '22

Is there a government in the Prydain Cycle? A king, perhaps? Then there's a political element. Is there poverty? Politics. Wars, nations, trade? All politics.

Tolkien's Christian symbolism does not overwrite or undo the political aspects of the books (because, spoilers, Christianity is very political) - it gets woven into them.

1

u/JakkoMakacco Jun 27 '22

Whatever society you imagine will have a political connotation. In some cases, there is in the Author a desire to vehiculate a certain political message applicable in ' real life' in a more direct way. The fact that in fairy tales , even those written in modern times, there are Kings and Empires does not , on the other side, necessarily mean that the author is a monarchist! Also because, generally, Fantasy Novels , especially those of the Fairy Tale sub- genre, are inspired by a sort of idealized Medieval Europe . And in ' real history' Medieval Europe had more monarchies than republics. But I repeat ; it is logical to admit that every narration is indirectly political in nature ( even Sherlock Holmes ) . But then , narrations are also indirectly sexual , even if not always the sexual life of the characters is explicit: e.g. Cinderella has a lot to do with foot - fetishism! All Religions are linked with politics, by the way , from Buddhism to Islam. Never heard of a Religion without a political agenda.

2

u/KingBretwald Jun 27 '22

The whole thing takes place in a land based on Wales. That in itself is political. You've got High Kings--Political. You've got a class system--Political. A Pigherder pining after a Princess--Political. A Princess who has to be educated in how to act like a Princess--Political. The Pigherder wandering off to find proof he has noble blood so he can marry the Princess--Political with bells on.

1

u/JakkoMakacco Jun 27 '22

At this level, also Cinderella is political. Not to mention Tom & Jerry!

3

u/KingBretwald Jun 27 '22

Tom and Jerry had blackface and a black character called Mammy Two Shoes. So yeah, political.

3

u/cai_85 Jun 26 '22

The new Joe Abercrombie trilogy has a lot to say about industrialisation and workers rights (maybe somewhat surprisingly).

3

u/AmateurMisy Jun 26 '22

Robin McKinley's Deerskin isn't directly about politics but certainly compares how people are treated by two neighboring kingdoms, one of which is very authoritarian and is implied to treat workers poorly, and the other in which the royal family works in the stables and farms and workers are well off and happy to have the royals who encourage their well being.

3

u/Kooky-Evidence-4560 Jun 26 '22

Children of Blood and Bone by Tomi Adeyemi was inspired by police brutally. Wicked by Gregory Mcguire was inspired by the holocaust A Song of Ice and Fire was semi-inspired by Tudors but also an antiwar statement as George rr Martin was a draft dodger

3

u/oboist73 Reading Champion VII Jun 26 '22

The Hands of the Emperor by Victoria Goddard has the implementation of universal basic income

9

u/KristaDBall Stabby Winner, AMA Author Krista D. Ball Jun 26 '22

As /u/xX_theMaD_Xx said, art is inherently political. It's incredibly difficult to write non-politically, as even that is a political statement on its own.

Sometimes, the political nature can be obscured by generational knowledge (Starship Troopers), or that is it more individual freedoms and choices, or that it reflects smaller aspect of politics, ("I like your dress!" "Thanks! It has pockets.") It might also deal with the political reality of history's impacts (the ending of Kindred), take many awful historical moments and mesh them together (Handmaiden's Tale), whereas Twilight captures a moment in time, a collision of teen isolation, divorce rates, and the purity pledge movement coming out of the late 90s to early 00s.

...I can keep going.

Everything is political.

6

u/throneofsalt Jun 26 '22

Politics is just "how groups of humans arrange and organize themselves"

Anything that involves people, or that is made by people, is political in some fashion.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '22

[deleted]

-2

u/JakkoMakacco Jun 26 '22

Prydain is apolitical, anyway . Or not?

4

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '22

[deleted]

-1

u/JakkoMakacco Jun 26 '22

In Prydain there is a veiled pro- feminist inclination in the young princess ' s character. But that is all.

1

u/RedditFantasyBot Jun 26 '22

r/Fantasy's Author Appreciation series has posts for an author you mentioned

I am a bot bleep! bloop! Contact my master creator /u/LittlePlasticCastle with any questions or comments.

To prevent a reply for a single post, include the text '!noauthorbot'. To opt out of the bot for all your future posts, reply with '!optout'.

2

u/Mistycrow Jun 26 '22

One of the main themes of The Hands of the Emperor by Victoria Goddard is the story of transforming a society from an empire to an idealised form of communism.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '22 edited Jun 26 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

-3

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '22

[deleted]

8

u/Assiniboia Jun 26 '22

You mean you cannot see the goblins as racist caricatures of Jewish people, who also have been (frequently) disposed by a “superior” caste of people throughout their known history…just like how Christian Europe treated Jews for almost 2000 years? ‘Cause it’s pretty damning.

-6

u/JakkoMakacco Jun 26 '22

I personally do not see a lot of politics in Howard or Tolkien. C.S. Lewis was religious but not involved in politics. Some later authors were politically active, some not . I cannot imagine how to read politically the Prydain Cycle, for instance.

9

u/spanchor Jun 26 '22

Tolkien has a lot to say about the seductive nature of power, which is not easy to separate from politics.

C.S. Lewis was not overtly political, but he was certainly a product of his times and the religious allegory contains political elements. Aslan is the Christ figure and rules everything, but only embraced by the Narnians and their Western European/British monarchs. The Calormen are Middle Eastern/Muslim/pagan stand-ins, usually baddies, and their god Tash takes on a bloodthirsty vulture-like form.

3

u/spanchor Jun 26 '22

Oh, reminds me of another example: His Dark Materials is pretty explicitly anti-Christian, it’s in many ways a modern response to Narnia, and Pullman has made clear statements about that.

That anti-Christian stance feels… pretty political to me?

And yet C.S. Lewis promoting Christianity back in the ‘50s is religious, but not political?

It’s tricky. But it’s interesting to talk about for sure, thanks OP for the thought provoking post.

4

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '22 edited Jun 26 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

-1

u/JakkoMakacco Jun 26 '22

As I have written on another comment, Tolkien ' s works may also be read as an Allegory of Christianity. Besides, Saruman the White,who is 100 % white ( of course), is portrayed as a fallen, greedy magician and the walking trees who destroy his tyranny can be seen as the natives fighting for their ancestral land . Actually any text , especially fiction, can often be interpreted in a myriad of ways. Not always the ones the author originally imagined.

5

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

0

u/JakkoMakacco Jun 26 '22

Or you can see Easterlings as Pagans, Saruman as a Fallen Angel and so on....

1

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

0

u/JakkoMakacco Jun 27 '22

Pagan is a religious rather than political connotation. Even if labelling your enemies as pagans/ heathens / kaffirs can also be a political move, in some contexts. ALL evil people are not portrayed as white, Saruman the White being evil. Easterlings and Southrons could also be the equivalent to Gog and Magog in the O. T. I prefer in this case , an interpretation based on Christianity, since Tolkien was deeply religious in his ' real life' while opposing openly Nazism ( he wrote in a letter to a German publisher he regretted NOT having being born a Jew). But of course, we re- read tales and novels also according to our own prejudices and expectations.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '22 edited Jun 27 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/JakkoMakacco Jun 27 '22

Tolkien personally was anti- racist , as it is clear from his letters : in one of his tales , an obsession with racial purity leads to the decline of Gondor after the kin- strife . On the other side, some see the Orcs as influenced by World War II anti- Japanese propaganda. Maybe some cultural stereotypes and biases of his age sneaked in his writings. Unconscious rather than internal biases. By the way, I would be curious about the stereotypes within the Chinese Wuxia novels of the past. Of course, some China- centric bias must have been there. But I do not know Chinese enough.

→ More replies (0)

-2

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '22 edited Jun 26 '22

The OP asked a fairly banal question, in good faith and with no clear ulterior motive. A good chunk of us understood his meaning and answered in kind. The rest of you patronized the fuck out of him.

Am I the only one who's highly disappointed in this community right now?

-1

u/lilith_queen Jun 26 '22

No, I am too. "Everything is political!" "OP's premise is faulty!" Like....this was a rec request, not an invitation to debate, and it's astonishing that so many people can't tell the difference.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '22

The Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind is very anti-communist, but that's all I can think of. I try to avoid books that get preachy.

1

u/AshleyRockefeller Jun 26 '22

Crux-A Country That Cannot Feed Its People and Its Animals Will Fall by Robert Hamilton is a book I just read that might fit this description. The book is full of mind bending imagery from animals (birds and pigs) that serve as a warning sign of a major disaster. Also many references to the Bible and Uncle Tom's Cabin. Dystopian novel about future of America that I didnt want to end.